Why doesn't God just destroy the devil?

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With this view, everyone goes to heaven eventually. So, what is the point? Why would God create us and then have us go through multiple lives until we are finally “good” enough for heaven? This doesn’t make sense to me.

Why would he create us so some of us go to hell? That makes even less sense to be honest.

 

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I believe that God created Adam in His image. He gave him everything, food, dominion over animals and the land. It was Paradise. Then He created Eve for Adam because it was not good for Adam to be alone. All is wonderful and at this point though, Adam and Eve have free will but do not have the “knowledge of good and evil”. So the way I view this, is they are just happy. They can do whatever they want and do not have to worry about good or evil, because it is not a part of their world. But then they make a choice. Satan tempts them to do it, but nonetheless they disobey God. This completely shatters their relationship with God and now they must live with the consequences.

It is not explicitly stated that the serpent was the devil. I believe that at the time of Jesus, this wasn’t even the common belief. I am pretty sure that this is just a Christian belief.

 

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Fast forward to Jesus. God loves us so much that He takes human form as Jesus, is born, teaches the apostles about how to live, starts His Church with them, is crucified, buried, on the third day He rises from the dead, appears to His apostle (because honestly they were all scared and probably ready to just throw in the towel, I mean their leader that they thought was going to change everything was dead), and ascends into Heaven.

Sound crazy. Well had Adam and Eve not made that choice (Original Sin) God would not have had to do all this. But God loves us so much, that He would take human form and be crucified for our sins. What led me to believe all this was that it is historic fact. We know Jesus lived, we have written accounts of His life and teachings, we know He was crucified. How do we know He rose from the dead? I sort of alluded to it, but for what other reason would 12 Apostles preach that message unless it happened, especially given the fact they 11 of them were killed for preaching it. I could understand 1 or 2 crazy people lying about Jesus being resurrected, but 12?!?

Your logic of why Jesus needed to come down and die for our sins is the same as Paul’s. I don’t think that Jesus was crucified for our sins to be honest, but I think it was a product of his teachings. I think that God sent Jesus because people had fell off the path, and needed to be shown what was right. I think his death was not for our sins though.

As for the resurrection being historical fact, I’m not too sure. I don’t think that any non Christian historians would agree with your historical analysis. I don’t doubt that it happened, it very well could have, but I’m not too sure. And if Jesus was resurrected, that wouldn’t really go against my beliefs, because I do believe that Jesus was sent by God. I just don’t know if he is God. And if Jesus was God, I don’t think that Jesus was completely unique in this regard. I wouldn’t doubt the Buddha’s divinity though.

 

[chessmane4e5]

Why would he create us so some of us go to hell? That makes even less sense to be honest.

He didn’t create us so that we go to hell. That is our choosing. I suppose you do not want to believe that God would give us that choice.

The way I see it, is that we would be less than human if we did not have free will. The fact that the consequence is eternal damnation is not mine to argue with God. I simply say, “Okay, Lord you created me, therefore you know what is best for human life. You have told me how to live by the divinely inspired Bible, you sent you only Son into the world to save me from my sins, so now I only have to live according to Your will.” I am okay with that.

 

[chessmane4e5]

Your logic of why Jesus needed to come down and die for our sins is the same as Paul’s. I don’t think that Jesus was crucified for our sins to be honest, but I think it was a product of his teachings. I think that God sent Jesus because people had fell off the path, and needed to be shown what was right. I think his death was not for our sins though.

A product of His teachings?

As for the resurrection being historical fact, I’m not too sure. I don’t think that any non Christian historians would agree with your historical analysis. I don’t doubt that it happened, it very well could have, but I’m not too sure. And if Jesus was resurrected, that wouldn’t really go against my beliefs, because I do believe that Jesus was sent by God. I just don’t know if he is God. And if Jesus was God, I don’t think that Jesus was completely unique in this regard. I wouldn’t doubt the Buddha’s divinity though.

The Buddha was an atheist wasn’t he? Maybe not, but his teachings sure were, therefore their is no way you can compare the man Buddha, to the man Jesus. Also, are their any claims that Buddha rose from the dead?

I have to admit that I have not read much about what Buddha taught, but from what I gather the central message is the same. But to me, what would be more important is the entire message. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. This is pretty bold. And the fact that his apostles believed Him, enough to even be killed, is pretty convincing evidence for me.

 

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He didn’t create us so that we go to hell. That is our choosing. I suppose you do not want to believe that God would give us that choice.

The way I see it, is that we would be less than human if we did not have free will. The fact that the consequence is eternal damnation is not mine to argue with God. I simply say, “Okay, Lord you created me, therefore you know what is best for human life. You have told me how to live by the divinely inspired Bible, you sent you only Son into the world to save me from my sins, so now I only have to live according to Your will.” I am okay with that.

I believe in free will. I just also believe in second chances. We do have free will, and I think everyone’s soul is good deep down, and I think that everyone has the ability to see truth and behave accordingly and get to heaven. So I don’t think there is a need for hell, and I think that hell is metaphorical as it is talked about in the Bible…as is satan.

 

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A product of His teachings?

The Buddha was an atheist wasn’t he? Maybe not, but his teachings sure were, therefore their is no way you can compare the man Buddha, to the man Jesus. Also, are their any claims that Buddha rose from the dead?

I have to admit that I have not read much about what Buddha taught, but from what I gather the central message is the same. But to me, what would be more important is the entire message. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. This is pretty bold. And the fact that his apostles believed Him, enough to even be killed, is pretty convincing evidence for me.

What I mean when I say “a product of his teachings” is that he was obviously preaching a message that was controversial and not going to go over well with everyone. Thus he got killed for this message, as many other people have been killed for controversial messages before him. Socrates was killed for his philosophies as well. That is what I mean it is a product of his teachings.

There is no claim that the Buddha rose from the dead. Also, there is no claim that the Buddha was a god, and the Buddha’s message was basically atheist (though not all buddhists are atheists). BUT, I think that the Buddha’s teachings are divine revelation. I also think that there is a reason why the teachings of the Buddha differ a bit from Jesus. They are just different paths to salvation. I think that some people will not follow Jesus’ message, so they have a chance with the Buddha’s messages. The Buddha taught teaching different things to different people so that they could relate better. I believe that is what different religions offer.

 

[chessmane4e5]

I believe in free will. I just also believe in second chances. We do have free will, and I think everyone’s soul is good deep down, and I think that everyone has the ability to see truth and behave accordingly and get to heaven. So I don’t think there is a need for hell, and I think that hell is metaphorical as it is talked about in the Bible…as is satan.

Second chances? How about infinite chances (okay not that many, but lets say average life span is 70 years, first 20 years we are too young to understand, so 50 years of chances times 365 days, times 24 hours, times 60 minutes time 60 seconds = 1,576,800,000 chances). How many more chances does a person need?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna,” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather…all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” and that he will pronounce condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!” Mt 5:22, 29; 10:28; 13:42, 50; Mk 9:43-48

This doesn’t seem like metaphor to me.

 

[chessmane4e5]

There is no claim that the Buddha rose from the dead. Also, there is no claim that the Buddha was a god, and the Buddha’s message was basically atheist (though not all buddhists are atheists). BUT, I think that the Buddha’s teachings are divine revelation. I also think that there is a reason why the teachings of the Buddha differ a bit from Jesus. They are just different paths to salvation. I think that some people will not follow Jesus’ message, so they have a chance with the Buddha’s messages. The Buddha taught teaching different things to different people so that they could relate better. I believe that is what different religions offer.

I know that Buddha himself, in his writing, told people he was just a man, not a god.

I am confused, why would God reveal his message through an atheist? Isn’t that contradictory? I suppose if you believe that it is all up to the person to earn their way into heaven and that God has nothing to do with it, it makes sense.

But it is my belief that no man is worthy of heaven. It is only through Gods good grace that we can “earn” our way into heaven.

I put earn in quotes because I know this can be a touchy subject, all I have to say is that “Faith without works is dead.” I know their is nothing we can do to earn our way into heaven.

 

[archangel04]

I am going to say that most people that don’t live life according to God actually don’t believe in God. If everyone knew that they would go to heaven if they were good and go to hell if they were bad, there is no DOUBT that people would be good and worship God. But these things are not definite.

Most people fo believe in God or in a “god(s)” and try to live accordingly. I am speaking of those who know the truth and choose not to live by it. The Church as stated there is not slavation outside the Church. It sounds to me like you are curiouse about the Faith, but the more you know of her, the more you reject the teachings and the truth. I hope to you find your way home so that you may attain the salvation Christ has baught for you.

 

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Most people fo believe in God or in a “god(s)” and try to live accordingly. I am speaking of those who know the truth and choose not to live by it. The Church as stated there is not slavation outside the Church. It sounds to me like you are curiouse about the Faith, but the more you know of her, the more you reject the teachings and the truth. I hope to you find your way home so that you may attain the salvation Christ has baught for you.

I don’t buy that the church is the only way to heaven. The dalai lama follows Jesus’ ethical teachings more than 99.9% of all Christians, but God sends him to hell because he didn’t believe the right thing…ridiculous.

 

[chessmane4e5]

I don’t buy that the church is the only way to heaven. The dalai lama follows Jesus’ ethical teachings more than 99.9% of all Christians, but God sends him to hell because he didn’t believe the right thing…ridiculous.

The Catholic Church does not say these people go to hell.

Think of it this way. You are in taking a trip from New York to L.A. A friend of yours has told you the shortest and safest way.

Now you can either listen to your friend or find your own way. The same is with the Catholic Church. Jesus told us how to get to heaven. We can either listen to Him or try and find our own way. The Church does not say there is only one way to heaven, but why would the Church teach their could be other ways to heaven, when they know of the way prescribed by Jesus.

Edit- Although since you doubt the Divinity of Jesus Christ, I can see why you would want to doubt the claim that the Church is the only way to heaven.

 

[Brendan]

I believe in free will. I just also believe in second chances. We do have free will, and I think everyone’s soul is good deep down, and I think that everyone has the ability to see truth and behave accordingly and get to heaven. So I don’t think there is a need for hell, and I think that hell is metaphorical as it is talked about in the Bible…as is satan.

We do have second chances, and third chances, etc… That is what Christ talked about when He talked about repentance.

God gives us a huge number of second chances. But they run out when we die.

 

[PJM]

=prettylarge;6057095]Because he was a religious philosopher that had an opinion…one different than my own. Although Paul did meet Peter and other people that actually knew Jesus, he boasts of only seeing them for a short amount of time in Galatians, and says his message is directly from Jesus…so I don’t really think his views are much more valid to mine.

Well quotes like this make me think that the Buddha was a better moral teacher than Jesus. I personally think that Christian values push many people away because they perpetuate guilt. I mean half the questions on this forum is about someone feeling guilty about something inconsequential. You should always look to better yourself and not dwell on the bad, only try to increase the good that you do. Learn from the bad, don’t dwell on it…and the church doesn’t necessarily say “dwell on the bad things you do” but its teachings lead to that result. I don’t agree with that and I think it does not benefit anyone.

***Friend allow me please to ask you a couple of questions. Please be honest and candid in you’re response.

WOULD YOU DIE THE MOST PAINFUL POSSIBLE DEATH for your beliefs?

COUNTLESS THOUSANDS OF CATHOLICS AND MANY CHRISTIANS HAVE, INCLUDING THIS PAUL YOU TAKE SO LIGHTLY.

Catholic beliefs and teaching have been tested and proven with history and time. Now some 2000 years young.

What is the time line of your beliefs?

And finally: All of humanity possess a mind, intellect and freewill, which can be proven. Would you care to quantify for us your mind? [Not brain… mind]. You can’t because they are SPIRITUAL THINGS.

Because SPIRITUAL THINGS must originate from other Spiritual things, where did you get your mind, intellect and freewill?

Your “arguments” friend, carry less weight than a hellium baloon ***

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[Norrin]

I agree with this for sure. I just don’t think all those that aren’t deserving of heaven go through eternity enduring unbelievable suffering though.

Then you don’t believe in the concept of hell. Hell has two components, and both are suffering. The first component is one’s totally departure from God. God is the source of all that is good. He is love incarnate and he radiates it. If you are not part of Him, then you suffer. The second component, as written in Scripture, is an actual place–the Lake of Fire. This is like the second death, with the first one being removed from God’s presence and the second one being a place of perpetual burning. Both are for eternity and are irreversible.

Hope this is clear.

 

[Norrin]

Do you believe that you can repent at the gates of heaven?

No. Your time here on Earth is crucial. If you live an infernal life and authentically repent before you expend your last breath, you can achieve salvation. After that last breath has been exhaled, you are under the mercy of Jesus Christ.

 

[Norrin]

What about people that become atheists or agnostics through reasoning and logic? I am not an atheist but I know enough of them and debated enough of them that I know their logic is quite sound. These people would argue that if there is a God, he certainly did not “inform us how we were constituted” or inform us how to live in a way that could not be argued. I believe in God because of a personal connection that I feel I have with Him…but if it wasn’t for that, and it was just based on what the Bible said, I would probably be an atheist too.

You’re assuming that those who believe in God don’t use or have reason and logic. Basically, those individuals who have used “reason” and “logic” to convince themselves that there is no God have misused those gifts from God, reason and logic. Science is simply God’s blueprint of how he built creation and how it works. Reason and logic are not mutually exclusive to faith.

 

[Norrin]

No one is at the gates of heaven and say “you know what, I think hell is a better fit for me actually.” God doesn’t allow them into heaven (according to the church), thus sending them to hell. You could make the argument that by doing bad things someone “chooses” hell, but given the choice between heaven or hell, no one would choose hell. So really they didn’t choose, God did. That is like saying people in prison chose to go to prison. No, I can assure you that many people would have rather not gone to jail. So they didn’t chose to go to jail, they just chose to do the thing that sent them to jail.

And there is one fatal flaw about that analogy…people that are breaking the law enough to go to jail almost always know that what they are doing could make them go to jail. Many people that are sent to hell (according to the church) don’t even believe in God and don’t know the (supposed) actions to their consequences.

This is totally wrong. Every human being is born with the seed that will yield good fruit, which basically means the eventual development of good and just actions toward his/her neighbor. Some people corrupt that seed. There are human beings that willfully and purposefully choose evil with the full knowledge of their decision’s consequences. And that mean’s hell. They trade-in their God-given grace in exchange for power and riches in this temporal life. The participate in rituals to evil with full consent.

 

[Norrin]

OK, well even if satan cannot be killed (God is all powerful and can do whatever he wants really so I don’t think this is true), couldn’t God just contain him and make sure he has no interaction with humans and doesn’t have hell? As I said before, if hell exists, then God reigns there too. I mean God is omniscient and is everywhere, so God would be in even hell, right?

If God sends people to hell, then he is working with the devil. You might as well call the devil another part of God.

Of course, God can destroy Satan if he wanted to. God can do anything He wants, whenever He wants. But this is not the point. We don’t know what God’s overarching divine design is, but we can deduce that Satan is part of it. Satan is the prince of this world, which means that he can and does do his work here, but under certain rules. His chief aim is to seduce and tempt you away from the grace of God. By your resistance to that, you grow spiritually, which brings you even closer to God. We all know this, but in bits and pieces. As Christians, Jesus gave us all we needed by His teachings, and we still have a terrible time following his tenets. This is part of being human, we are all sinners and therefore need all the help we need to defeat the Evil One and his seductive power.

No, God in not in hell. God and sin cannot go hand to hand. Where there is sin, God is not there. Remember, hell can be accurately described as existing with the “absence” of God, which is the sole source of Love. So, again, where the damned are God is absent.

 

[Howardblk25]

The existence of God is debated though. If God revealed himself explicitly, and his existence was a fact that everyone knew, I would agree with this. But many people, and rightfully so I would say, do not think He exists. They do make some good points.

I agree with what you are saying here. I do think God is just. I just don’t think that eternal suffering is the proper punishment for even a mortal sin. Even an eye for an eye is far more just than that. Sending someone to hell is like “infinite eyes for an eye.” That is why I think you just get sent back down to earth instead of going to hell. That is the only just thing IMO.

To say that God dosen’t exist is like saying that anything that you say is true just because you say it. God gave us free will to say weather we believe in him or not. If you continue to believe that God dose not exist into your death, then after you die it will be true for you. God will say that he dose not know you and the only place for you then will be down. Again, it’s your choice.