Why doesn't God just destroy the devil?

[PJM]

=a real person;

By the way, does Satan not know that God is omnipotent? How dumb could Satan be to think that he could possibly win out against the omnipotent Creator, the Creator of everything including even himself?

***The question has been asked how can God “make evil?”

Actually friend God can’t:thumbsup: Does that surprise you?

God can and does PERMIT EVIL, but His Dive Nature cannot cause evil*, simply because God is and can only be “all good-perfected.”

This raises two questions.

How does God PERMIT evil?

Why does God permit evil?**

***God, the angels [includen FALLEN angels] and humanity share a similar nature inn EFFECT BUT NOT in degree. God is perfect, and we very imperfect.

God Created us with a mind, intellect, freewill and soul. Now it is possible to demonistrate each of these “THINGS” yet, if you were tasked to qunatify any of them, you could not. This is because they are all SPIRITUAL THINGS.

We can get out bodies and brain from our parents [physical things] but NOT Spiritual Things. So we can know they are from another Powerful source [that we choose to call and know as our God.]

The root of all evil “IS PRIDE” and it is PRIDE that let Satan and his menions to think that they were as great as God. They now have discovered the [singular truth] they are Not, and we are Not.

God gives these awesome gifts of mind, intellect, freewill and soul for a very precise reason. So that BOTH in heaven and on earth, we MIGHT [free-choice] choose to know, love and serve God in this life, so that we may spend Eternity with God in our Eternal Life. Another shared part of the Divine Nature.

Satan is “no DUMBER” [more devious, but, no dumber!] than the majority of humanity. Hell is alot larger than Heaven. “Enter by the Narrow gate, Many are called but few are chosen.” More choose out of Pride and Sloth, [the king and queen of SIN] to take the easy road, or think they know more, know better that God Himself. WRONG!

God permits evil by giving us a mind, intellect and Freewill so when presentd with EVIL, we have tha capcity to say NOI! to satan and Yes to God!

God PERMITS Evil so that WE CAN CHOOSE GOOD!
Pray about it.***

 

[Biggie]

May I supplement the above by referring to St. Augustine who tells us that evil has no existence of its own. Evil is merely the lack of or absence of the good. Evil only exists because good exists.

This should indicate to us that evil is not necessary. It occurs only through the conscious decision of beings with will to pursue that which is not a good, in essence that which does not promote the fullness of life. Although God is goodness itself, Satan is not evil itself but has chosen not to do that which is good. This choice is irreversible in his case because of his spiritual nature and its relationship to God. In our case, the decision to do other than that which is good is reversible but only through the means God employed - by his own human incarnation and subsequent suffering and death.

 

[Biggie]

Good question. Perhaps we must go through a process of purification and penance before reaching Heaven. The level and length of that process would depend on how well we lived up to the Gospel and the commandments. For some it would be “a walk in the park” while others could find it a little more demanding. That would correlate with Jesus telling the criminal on the next Cross that on that day they would be together in Paradise.

Some decisions we make are final.

Final means final.

I don’t mean to be persistent on these points, but I think personally it is important to be clear. Wishy-washy beliefs concerning the nature and consequences of evil are deadly because they disarm us. We cannot defend ourselves against an enemy whose existence we do not even recognize, with allies we do not accept, with weapons we do not understand and with consequences of defeat we do not fear. Is it any wonder we fail so miserably so often in battle and evil so often triumphs?

 

[Benadam]

Some decisions we make are final.

Final means final.

I don’t mean to be persistent on these points, but I think personally it is important to be clear. Wishy-washy beliefs concerning the nature and consequences of evil are deadly because they disarm us. We cannot defend ourselves against an enemy whose existence we do not even recognize, with allies we do not accept, with weapons we do not understand and with consequences of defeat we do not fear. Is it any wonder we fail so miserably so often in battle and evil so often triumphs?

 

[chaunceygardner]

Some decisions we make are final.

Final means final.

I don’t mean to be persistent on these points, but I think personally it is important to be clear. Wishy-washy beliefs concerning the nature and consequences of evil are deadly because they disarm us. We cannot defend ourselves against an enemy whose existence we do not even recognize, with allies we do not accept, with weapons we do not understand and with consequences of defeat we do not fear. Is it any wonder we fail so miserably so often in battle and evil so often triumphs?

My thoughts were in response to an idea in another post that hell may not be eternal, using Purgatory as a template of sorts. I was not advocating doctrine or that anyone change how they live, I was making a supposition. In fact, if I were to believe this, it would not change my thoughts or actions in any way. And I don’t see that it should cause anyone to change theirs. I was trying to reconcile the idea of hell and “paying for our sins” with the hope for salvation, and the indications that we get from Jesus that ALL can be saved.

We humans tend to look at so many things as one way or the other, black or white, right or wrong, with no provision for a continuum or range from one end to the other. We do the same with God’s judgment of us, which we envision as just two doors, and once we pass we through those doors that’s it.

Maybe God is using a somewhat more sophisticated process than an “on and off” switch: perhaps something more like a “dimmer switch”. Maybe instead of two doors there is a long journey, a “pilgrim’s progress” that starts when we physically die and progresses until we are fully in His embrace. As we review the good and not so good aspects of our lives we become cleansed, during this transition our souls are purified. Someone like a Mother Teresa will have a very short journey while for most of the rest of us it will be longer. But we all get there eventually.

I realize this is not the doctrine or belief of any church (that I am aware of) but is just my way of considering what may happen when we die.

You are certainly free to believe something totally different. As I said at the start, either way, it does not change how we should live our lives.

 

[Biggie]

My thoughts were in response to an idea in another post that hell may not be eternal, using Purgatory as a template of sorts. I was not advocating doctrine or that anyone change how they live, I was making a supposition. In fact, if I were to believe this, it would not change my thoughts or actions in any way. And I don’t see that it should cause anyone to change theirs. I was trying to reconcile the idea of hell and “paying for our sins” with the hope for salvation, and the indications that we get from Jesus that ALL can be saved.

We humans tend to look at so many things as one way or the other, black or white, right or wrong, with no provision for a continuum or range from one end to the other. We do the same with God’s judgment of us, which we envision as just two doors, and once we pass we through those doors that’s it.

Maybe God is using a somewhat more sophisticated process than an “on and off” switch: perhaps something more like a “dimmer switch”. Maybe instead of two doors there is a long journey, a “pilgrim’s progress” that starts when we physically die and progresses until we are fully in His embrace. As we review the good and not so good aspects of our lives we become cleansed, during this transition our souls are purified. Someone like a Mother Teresa will have a very short journey while for most of the rest of us it will be longer. But we all get there eventually.

I realize this is not the doctrine or belief of any church (that I am aware of) but is just my way of considering what may happen when we die.

You are certainly free to believe something totally different. As I said at the start, either way, it does not change how we should live our lives.

Of course I am free to believe something different as are you! But if there is truth, it is unaffected by your belief or mine, and if there is truth, then beliefs are not relatively equal in relation to it. Error may not change how one lives one’s life, but it may change its end.

If the truth is that Satan and hell exist then the posture that the devil is fiction or hell is temporary is disarming. Jesus, who said he is the truth, also spoke as to the existence of the devil and the finality of hell. The concept you were discussing is not only not the doctrine of the church, but more importantly it is not consistent with Jesus’ teaching.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Of course I am free to believe something different as are you! But if there is truth, it is unaffected by your belief or mine, and if there is truth, then beliefs are not relatively equal in relation to it. Error may not change how one lives one’s life, but it may change its end.

If the truth is that Satan and hell exist then the posture that the devil is fiction or hell is temporary is disarming. Jesus, who said he is the truth, also spoke as to the existence of the devil and the finality of hell. The concept you were discussing is not only not the doctrine of the church, but more importantly it is not consistent with Jesus’ teaching.

I am not as sure about that as you are. I think it IS consistent with what we perceive the teaching of Jesus to be, but may not be 100% consistent with the entirety of the Gospel message. I think we suffer from human limitations in our understanding and have made the Gospel to be what WE want it to be (granted, I may be doing that personally, as well). I think there is something we are missing and I am trying to figure it out.

But the earlier posts about the inconsistencies are certainly valid ones. If Satan exists as “we” understand it, then God is not all powerful, or He is not a God of Love and mercy but of vindictiveness. He is playing with us. I cannot accept either view, and therefore must consider the OP question; does Satan exist?

 

[Xarnax42]

But the earlier posts about the inconsistencies are certainly valid ones. If Satan exists as “we” understand it, then God is not all powerful, or He is not a God of Love and mercy but of vindictiveness.

We need to be careful with our logic here. Satan’s existence does not necessarily lead us to either of your conclusions. There are certainly other alternatives, the most likely one, IMHO, being that the love of God is beyond our understanding. Just because we can’t understand how the existence of hell is loving does not mean that it isn’t.

 

[chaunceygardner]

We need to be careful with our logic here. Satan’s existence does not necessarily lead us to either of your conclusions. There are certainly other alternatives, the most likely one, IMHO, being that the love of God is beyond our understanding. Just because we can’t understand how the existence of hell is loving does not mean that it isn’t.

I agree that our understanding of God is limited or incomplete. But to think that the existence of hell is “loving” is like saying that torture chambers or the Black Hole of Calcutta were places filled with love.

And to say that the love of God is beyond our understanding is to say that He gave us the commandment to love, and showed us what He meant by that, but did not give us the ability or mental capacity to understand it or apply it. THAT does not make any sense whatsoever.

I am not saying it is or should be easy to understand or apply the commandments to love God and one another, but it shouldn’t be nigh impossible. Perhaps our failure to “understand” is due to our reliance on that human method of understanding, and our own base wants and needs, rather than moving beyond those and using the Way He showed us.

I think most people WANT there to be a hell to punish those who “deserve” it, with no hope of salvation for them; its their way of “getting even” in the next life. They want God to act as their surrogate in vengeance and retribution. And perhaps to show that they are the more righteous and favored ones. They don’t want to share heaven with “those sinners”. Perhaps a little vanity in action here? (Which Jesus points out several times in comparing those who approach God in righteousness vs. those who come to Him in humility).

To me the idea of a violent, vindictive God and an eternal punishment in hell is very old “Old Testament” (it represents a very primitive understanding of our relationship with God) and does not equate with the Gospel message of the New Testament as presented over and over again by Jesus.

Perhaps one big issue is that many feel if that “dagger” was not constantly hanging over everyone’s heads we would lose all inhibitions and morality. But that obviously doesn’t generally work now or has it ever, and those who understand and try to follow the Gospel in true faith will do so whether or not the dagger is there; and not because of the threat of punishment but because of the PROMISE of a blissful eternity of pure Love.

 

[chessmane4e5]

I agree that our understanding of God is limited or incomplete. But to think that the existence of hell is “loving” is like saying that torture chambers or the Black Hole of Calcutta were places filled with love.

Parent analogies work well for me. When a parent punishes their children for misbehaving, the child usually thinks the parent is being cruel and unusual, and they are the meanest people alive. The parent knows this is not true. For me this is purgatory.

But if one of my children completely rejected me, went on a murderous rampage killing people and had to be put in prison for life, then I see no other alternative. If they were sorry for what they did, temporary insanity or something, then therapy might help, but if they did not care, then its life without parole.

I think the important thing to understand is how much we do not understand how are sinful actions separate us from God. The littlest, tiniest sin is still a slap in the face of God. Mortal Sins completely separate us God and the only way back is repentance.

And to say that the love of God is beyond our understanding is to say that He gave us the commandment to love, and showed us what He meant by that, but did not give us the ability or mental capacity to understand it or apply it. THAT does not make any sense whatsoever.

Can you understand why a God would take human form and die for us? I can’t. It doesn’t make sense to me.

I am not saying it is or should be easy to understand or apply the commandments to love God and one another, but it shouldn’t be nigh impossible. Perhaps our failure to “understand” is due to our reliance on that human method of understanding, and our own base wants and needs, rather than moving beyond those and using the Way He showed us.

Why do we even deserve to understand?

I think most people WANT there to be a hell to punish those who “deserve” it, with no hope of salvation for them; its their way of “getting even” in the next life. They want God to act as their surrogate in vengeance and retribution. And perhaps to show that they are the more righteous and favored ones. They don’t want to share heaven with “those sinners”. Perhaps a little vanity in action here? (Which Jesus points out several times in comparing those who approach God in righteousness vs. those who come to Him in humility).

I hope this is not true. I know that when I was younger, I would alway wish that there was someway for everyone to go to heaven, even people like Hitler. That maybe their was someway. But the key is, if Hitler does not want to go heaven, meaning he has completely rejected God’s will, then their is no way. People have free will, it is a blessing and a curse I suppose.

To me the idea of a violent, vindictive God and an eternal punishment in hell is very old “Old Testament” (it represents a very primitive understanding of our relationship with God) and does not equate with the Gospel message of the New Testament as presented over and over again by Jesus.

Jesus did preach about the fires of hell. I think Protestants and other denominations have focus on the happy side of Jesus’ message because it is easier to convince people of their message. But Jesus’ message was both, the sheep will go to heaven and the goats will go to hell. To sugar coat it, is a lie.

Perhaps one big issue is that many feel if that “dagger” was not constantly hanging over everyone’s heads we would lose all inhibitions and morality. But that obviously doesn’t generally work now or has it ever, and those who understand and try to follow the Gospel in true faith will do so whether or not the dagger is there; and not because of the threat of punishment but because of the PROMISE of a blissful eternity of pure Love.

I do not agree. As a child, I obeyed because of the dagger (my fathers belt if we want to be literal). Now that I am older, I would say 50% of my actions are for God, the other 50% are so I will not go to hell. I hope to someday get to 95% or even 100% of my actions for God, but all I can do is try.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Parent analogies work well for me. When a parent punishes their children for misbehaving, the child usually thinks the parent is being cruel and unusual, and they are the meanest people alive. The parent knows this is not true. For me this is purgatory.

But if one of my children completely rejected me, went on a murderous rampage killing people and had to be put in prison for life, then I see no other alternative. If they were sorry for what they did, temporary insanity or something, then therapy might help, but if they did not care, then its life without parole.

Even people on death row are loved by their mothers (at least in the movies). God loves us all.

I think the important thing to understand is how much we do not understand how are sinful actions separate us from God. The littlest, tiniest sin is still a slap in the face of God. Mortal Sins completely separate us God and the only way back is repentance.

Conversely, does not every tiny act of Love bring us closer to Him? Does Jesus preach punishment to those who are admittedly sinners? No, He preaches forgiveness and love for one another and the power of faith. Over and over again. But we, in our focus on our own human failures, dwell on retribution and penance. Jesus asks for our love in return for the love God has for us.

Can you understand why a God would take human form and die for us? I can’t. It doesn’t make sense to me.

That is not a valid comparison. Would you expect an eight year old who knows the basics of math to solve a calculus problem?

We CAN understand God’s message, given to us by Jesus, and distilled into the first two commandments. It is Love, simply and completely. To love God and to love our neighbor. No higher math needed, no genius level IQ to get the idea. It is not a mystery. What is a puzzle is our failure to live up to it.

Why do we even deserve to understand?

If we don’t deserve to understand, there is no point to Jesus. None whatsoever. Why would He bring us the Gospel and suffer as He did if we are not worthy of understanding and unable to follow His commandment? Was He just teasing us? What a dispirited and disjointed view you seem to have of God and our relationship with Him.

I hope this is not true. I know that when I was younger, I would alway wish that there was someway for everyone to go to heaven, even people like Hitler. That maybe their was someway. But the key is, if Hitler does not want to go heaven, meaning he has completely rejected God’s will, then their is no way. People have free will, it is a blessing and a curse I suppose.

I believe your “hope this is not true” is referring to the idea that there are vindictive people in the world and that they may look to God to punish those they identify as sinners, especially if they haven’t been punished “enough” in this life. I do think there are people (unfortunately even on these forums) who set themselves above others in worthiness before God. The self-righteous are identified by Jesus and contrasted with the humble and meek several times. There is no doubt Jesus favors the humble.

Jesus did preach about the fires of hell. I think Protestants and other denominations have focus on the happy side of Jesus’ message because it is easier to convince people of their message. But Jesus’ message was both, the sheep will go to heaven and the goats will go to hell. To sugar coat it, is a lie.

And I am not saying there will be no “punishment”; I (and others here) are questioning whether it will truly be eternal. I think some people today and in the past (including some writers or editors of the Gospels perhaps) are attributing their own concepts of good, evil, reward and punishment to the teachings of Jesus.

I do not agree. As a child, I obeyed because of the dagger (my fathers belt if we want to be literal). Now that I am older, I would say 50% of my actions are for God, the other 50% are so I will not go to hell. I hope to someday get to 95% or even 100% of my actions for God, but all I can do is try.

This was in response to my comments on whether we should obey God because of the threat of punishment or because of an eternal reward. You say you disagree, but then you say you are “trying” to get to 95% or even 100% of the latter. So you appear to agree that the former (fear of punishment) is what we do for the most part, but the latter (hope in God’s love and forgiveness) is what we should be striving for. That is my point exactly.

And my reason for striving for that 100% is because of the Gospel and the commandments of Jesus. Don’t forget that every time we pray the Our Father we ask God to “forgive us” (and treat us) as we “forgive others” (and treat others). And at the end of that prayer we are asking God’s help, not to save us from the clutches of Satan, but to save us from ourselves.

 

[Norrin]

I am not as sure about that as you are. I think it IS consistent with what we perceive the teaching of Jesus to be, but may not be 100% consistent with the entirety of the Gospel message. I think we suffer from human limitations in our understanding and have made the Gospel to be what WE want it to be (granted, I may be doing that personally, as well). I think there is something we are missing and I am trying to figure it out.

But the earlier posts about the inconsistencies are certainly valid ones. If Satan exists as “we” understand it, then God is not all powerful, or He is not a God of Love and mercy but of vindictiveness. He is playing with us. I cannot accept either view, and therefore must consider the OP question; does Satan exist?

The Bible (New Testament) is the divine revelation given to us by God. He inspired certain men (the apostles) and they and others who learned directly from them wrote the Bible in about 100-150 years. We certainly did not write it based on our interpretation or what “we” wanted it to be. If this were the case, the Bible would be meaningless and wouldn’t have possibly survived all these centuries. Now, the Bible does give us just enough information to allow for understanding of what is required of us to achieve and receive eternal life. The Bible is not meant to tell us God’s divine design and how it relates to the cosmos, and it certainly does not reveal how his long-term plan was conceived and what its fine details entail. Likewise, the Bible does not tell us why he allows evil and Satan to exist. But, given the certain information that has been revealed to us, we can deduce. We know that when humanity faces evil, such as WWII, we suffer. But when we defeat evil, the human race somehow and someway improves just a little bit in terms of our understanding of how are all inter-connected and how we all affect one another. Also, have you ever noticed that evil never wins. If you are a student of history, you’ll notice that all tyrannical regimes and evil-doers throughout the centuries fail in their ultimate aspirations, which are always consistent with attributes assigned to Satan. Yes, they cause destruction and hurt the world through war and genocide (or whatever), but they ultimately fail at the end. Goodness always triumphs.

God is ALL-POWERFUL. You should never surmise that just because Satan and evil exists, then God must not have the power to destroy them. On the contrary, through deduction of Scripture, through dialogue with past saints, and through dialogue with evil spirits during exorcisms, the fact that Satan and evil are subservient to God has been manifest over the centuries. The Catholic Church and other Christian faiths have correctly concluded that God uses Satan and his evil works to bring an ultimate good to humanity. In other words, he inverts evil and makes a good out of it. This is part and parcel of His divine design, of which we only know that we are part of it.

Now, a few years ago Father Gabriel Amorth, the chief exorcist of the Vatican, had the opportunity to speak with Pope John Paul II before he died. Father Amorth told the Pope that many bishops and priests do not believe in Satan as a real entity, and because of that disbelief, exorcists are often shunned and ridiculed by many of those non-believers. Without hesitation and with complete authority in his voice, the Pope replied, “Those that do not believe in Satan do not believe in the Gospel”. Father Amorth felt that this response was not only a perfect answer, but should be used to counter any direct accusation that believing in Satan is something of our medieval past. But why did Amorth think this was such an excellent response? The answer is because Jesus himself specifically revealed to us that a chief evil spirit named Lucifer exists, and his overarching goal is to cause our downfall and to destroy our spirit. If those non-believing bishops and priests do not believe what Jesus said and revealed, then they don’t believe in the totality of the Scriptures as Jesus revealed it to us. And if they don’t believe in its totality, then they are in the wrong business. Well, since that meeting between Father Amorth and the Pope occurred, there has been a revival of priests learning the rite of exorcism to battle the powers and principalities of evil that exist in this world. And this is good news for all Christians.

~Peace

 

[chessmane4e5]

Even people on death row are loved by their mothers (at least in the movies). God loves us all.

And so even those souls that are in hell are loved by God. But that does mean those souls will not spend eternity there for their rejection of God.

Conversely, does not every tiny act of Love bring us closer to Him? Does Jesus preach punishment to those who are admittedly sinners? No, He preaches forgiveness and love for one another and the power of faith. Over and over again. But we, in our focus on our own human failures, dwell on retribution and penance. Jesus asks for our love in return for the love God has for us.

He did preach forgiveness, but also that some would go to heaven and some to hell.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

That is not a valid comparison. Would you expect an eight year old who knows the basics of math to solve a calculus problem?

It is valid because do you expect every person in the world to be able to understand Quantum Physics or the Proof of Fermat’s Last Theorem?

We CAN understand God’s message, given to us by Jesus, and distilled into the first two commandments. It is Love, simply and completely. To love God and to love our neighbor. No higher math needed, no genius level IQ to get the idea. It is not a mystery. What is a puzzle is our failure to live up to it.

I agree. We can strive to follow those two commands given by Jesus. And it is not a sin to think about what could be. Maybe hell is not eternal? But all the evidence we have says it is eternal, and to believe otherwise is a sin.

If we don’t deserve to understand, there is no point to Jesus. None whatsoever. Why would He bring us the Gospel and suffer as He did if we are not worthy of understanding and unable to follow His commandment? Was He just teasing us? What a dispirited and disjointed view you seem to have of God and our relationship with Him.

The point of Jesus was to die for our sins. That is it. Did He also clarify some of the Old Testament laws and make them easier to understand? Yes. Did he extend the salvation given by God from the Jew to the Gentiles and everyone? Yes. Following His commands are completely different from understanding them. We are all capable of following the commands of God, but I believe we will never understand them until we are with God in heaven. Sin separates us from God.

And I am not saying there will be no “punishment”; I (and others here) are questioning whether it will truly be eternal. I think some people today and in the past (including some writers or editors of the Gospels perhaps) are attributing their own concepts of good, evil, reward and punishment to the teachings of Jesus.

See previous bible passages. It is eternal.

This was in response to my comments on whether we should obey God because of the threat of punishment or because of an eternal reward. You say you disagree, but then you say you are “trying” to get to 95% or even 100% of the latter. So you appear to agree that the former (fear of punishment) is what we do for the most part, but the latter (hope in God’s love and forgiveness) is what we should be striving for. That is my point exactly.

I thought you were saying that people would not act differently if hell is temporary or eternal or even if it didn’t exist. I do not think Jesus told us a white lie about hell, in order to get us to behave from fear.

We could have another thread on how we should live: fear of hell or love of God?

And my reason for striving for that 100% is because of the Gospel and the commandments of Jesus. Don’t forget that every time we pray the Our Father we ask God to “forgive us” (and treat us) as we “forgive others” (and treat others). And at the end of that prayer we are asking God’s help, not to save us from the clutches of Satan, but to save us from ourselves.

I believe the original Our Father said, “Lead us not into temptation but protect us from the Devil.”

I will try and find a source for this.

 

[Biggie]

I am not as sure about that as you are. I think it IS consistent with what we perceive the teaching of Jesus to be, but may not be 100% consistent with the entirety of the Gospel message. I think we suffer from human limitations in our understanding and have made the Gospel to be what WE want it to be (granted, I may be doing that personally, as well). I think there is something we are missing and I am trying to figure it out.

But the earlier posts about the inconsistencies are certainly valid ones. If Satan exists as “we” understand it, then God is not all powerful, or He is not a God of Love and mercy but of vindictiveness. He is playing with us. I cannot accept either view, and therefore must consider the OP question; does Satan exist?

In your first paragraph you have cast the entirety of scripture into doubt saying, in as much, we cannot know what scripture says. But clearly a two thousand year record of the interpretation of scripture exists. To say that we cannot know what Jesus says when he says it directly in scripture is to say we cannot know Jesus. I reject that.

The premise of your second paragraph is false. The existence of Satan does not demonstrate that either God is impotent or unloving. Quite the opposite, because God is all powerful, the existence of Satan is no threat to him and because God is love itself, Satan could both rebel and continue to exist.

Were God playing with us, he would fix what would then become the* game* of life so that we could neither err, nor stray from him, nor fail. Because he made us powerful and free, because he did not make us puppets, we were able to lead the world away from communion with God. Because he respects that autonomy and freedom, God was willing to live and die as a human being rather than compromise it. That, my friend, is love.

 

[Biggie]

I think the words of Pope Benedict are appropriate here. In his book, Jesus of Nazareth, after he notes that “the world is ruled by the powers of evil”, he quotes Heinrich Schlier as follows:

“The enemies are not this or that person, not even myself. They are not flesh and blood … . The conflict goes deeper. It is a fight against a host of opponents that never stop coming; they cannot really be pinned down and have no proper name, only collective denominations. They also start out with superior advantage over man, and that is because of their superior position, their position ‘in the heavens’ of existence. They are also superior because their position is impenetrable and unassailable - their position, after all, is the ‘atmosphere’ of existence, which they themselves tilt in their favor and propagate around themselves. These enemies are, finally, all full of essential deadly malice.”

Giving reference to the Book of Job, the pope writes:

“Satan derides man in order to deride God: God’s creature, who he has formed in his own image, is a pitiful creature. Everything that seems good about him is just a facade. The reality is that the only thing man - each man - ever cares about is his own well being. This is the judgment of Satan, who the Book of Revelations calls ‘the accuser of our brethren … who accuses them day and night before our God.’ The calumniation of man and creation is in the final instance a calumniation of God, an excuse for renouncing him.”

Pope Benedict details the reasons why God grants Satan the limited ability to try the human being and relates that back to the last two lines of our Lord’s prayer. But in a broad stroke, the Pope writes that to faithfully endure trials is to restore man’s honor and to honor God.

 

[chessmane4e5]

I think it may have already been said in this thread (if not, then in another) but Hell is more likely the ABSENCE of God, and not the presence of fire.

It may very well be a place of smoke and flames, which eternally burn our souls.

Or this could be figurative language for what it is going to feel like to be ABSENT God. I mean, man just can not comprehend the spiritual because we are in the physical. In order to imagine it, we have to impose physical constraints on it, which do not do it justice.

So, if it makes you feel any better, I see nothing wrong with saying “God did not create a place of eternal flames, which we call hell, but instead hell is the absence of God which our souls will experience for eternity if we reject God and this will be more painful than a place of eternal flames”.

 

[chaunceygardner]

The Bible (New Testament) is the divine revelation given to us by God. He inspired certain men (the apostles) and they and others who learned directly from them wrote the Bible in about 100-150 years. We certainly did not write it based on our interpretation or what “we” wanted it to be.

Read the Gospel of Mark, then read the Gospel of John. Compare them while asking yourself, “Who is Jesus in this Gospel, and what is His relationship with God?” Compare the Passion story in each, and ask, “What is this telling us about Jesus?” What does Jesus say in each Gospel about the Jews?

Of course each Gospel has a somewhat interpretation of Jesus. They were told to different audiences by different people who lived in different communities. They used some of the same information, but adapted it to fit their needs. It is there for all to see.

Likewise, the Bible does not tell us why he allows evil and Satan to exist.

Where is hell? Where is Satan? We have many examples, both in and out of Scripture, where Angels of the Lord appear. Where are the examples of when Satan appears? The only one I am aware of in the Gospels is in the tempting of Jesus. But that brings up a question that no one has ever answered for me: How can Satan tempt God? And why would Satan try? And if God eternally punishes the wicked for the evil they do, and Satan is the lowest form of evil that one could imagine why did not God at that moment just smite Satan and destroy him then and there? Or, if God is Love and is all powerful, and Satan is evil, then God could have removed the evil from Satan’s heart and turned him back to a “good” angel. That didn’t happen either. Hmmmm…Perhaps the point of that story is that Jesus was subject to BOTH human and divine instincts and feelings, and if He let his human desires take over, He could have had all the temporal power He wanted. But instead He did not “tempt God”, suppressed His human desires and accepted the will of His Father.

Also, have you ever noticed that evil never wins. If you are a student of history, you’ll notice that all tyrannical regimes and evil-doers throughout the centuries fail in their ultimate aspirations, which are always consistent with attributes assigned to Satan. Yes, they cause destruction and hurt the world through war and genocide (or whatever), but they ultimately fail at the end. Goodness always triumphs.

“Never wins?” “Goodness always triumphs”? There are a lot people and countries who were on the wrong end of the sword who would disagree with that. That “ultimately” can sometimes be a very long time in coming, with much destruction and suffering before it occurs. Perhaps God could speed up the process a little?

God is ALL-POWERFUL. You should never surmise that just because Satan and evil exists, then God must not have the power to destroy them.

If God is all powerful, then He has a strange way of showing it in the case of a subservient, disobedient entity HE created. Which brings up another question: Why would God create Satan at all, or create something He obviously can’t control.

I’m not convinced, just yet.

On the contrary, through deduction of Scripture, through dialogue with past saints, and through dialogue with evil spirits during exorcisms, the fact that Satan and evil are subservient to God has been manifest over the centuries.

Then God and Satan both have a “funny” way of demonstrating that subservience, since Satan seems to thumb his nose at God, and God is so wishy-washy he doesn’t do anything about it. Like you, MY father would have used a hand or belt if I did that.

The Catholic Church and other Christian faiths have correctly concluded that God uses Satan and his evil works to bring an ultimate good to humanity. In other words, he inverts evil and makes a good out of it. This is part and parcel of His divine design, of which we only know that we are part of it.

Why use Satan at all? Why must the source of evil be from something outside ourselves? Could it not come from our own human nature? Is it easier to blame someone else for our failures then to point the finger at ourselves? Here is what Jesus told us about what God will do for us “wicked” people, from Matthew 7:

Which one of you would hand his son a stone when he asks for a loaf of bread,
or a snake when he asks for a fish?
If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good things to those who ask him.

And where does Jesus say evil is found?

From Luke 6:

A good person out of the store of goodness in his heart produces good, but an evil person out of a store of evil produces evil; for from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks.

From Matthew 23:

You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth.
Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing.

No using Satan as an excuse or reason here. Good or evil, it comes from within us.

Of course, Jesus also tells us, as in the last quote, that the source of all goodness and Love is within us as well. For He is within us and we are within Him.

Which is the Promise of Christmas…so have a very blessed one.

 

[chessmane4e5]

Evil does not come from Satan. Evil is the opposite of Good. Good is choosing God, evil is rejecting God.

Why does God allow Satan to live? Not sure. Seems to me that God is a creator, not a destroyer (in the ultimate sense). Angels and souls are eternal. God, for what ever reason He has but I assume it a good one, does not destroy these.

Why would God create Satan at all, or create something He obviously can’t control.

Why did God create anything at all? We know that He gave the angels the equivalent to our free choice, except when an angel chooses it is permanent, where as man can change. We can theorize for ever about “Well didn’t God know when He created everything that Satan would do this, and that man would do that…?” but we just can not comprehend the answers to these questions.

Could he control satan, or man for that matter? Sure, He can do anything. Why doesn’t He? Again, even if we could know the answer, I do not think we could comprehend it, at least not while we are on earth.

How can Satan tempt God?

How can God die? He did it, on the cross. God took human form and was human in every way except original sin. Had Satan succeeded, Jesus would have sinned and I can only imagine it would have created a contradiction that I am sure Satan was hoping would destroy God. But Satan did not succeed, so all is well.

I suppose ultimately, we can go on like this all our lives, which at most is a hundred years. I prefer to submit my will to the Catholic Church, which for 2000 years has thought about and answered most of these questions. I suggest looking online at the catechism or better yet, buy one because I find it easier to look up answers.

 

[Biggie]

No using Satan as an excuse or reason here. Good or evil, it comes from within us.

Of course, Jesus also tells us, as in the last quote, that the source of all goodness and Love is within us as well. For He is within us and we are within Him.

Which is the Promise of Christmas…so have a very blessed one.

Let’s just make a summary response here that none of this is the Catholic reading of scripture, nor is any of this in the 2000 year tradition of the Catholic church, its church fathers, martyrs, or magisterium.

 

[chaunceygardner]

In your first paragraph you have cast the entirety of scripture into doubt saying, in as much, we cannot know what scripture says. But clearly a two thousand year record of the interpretation of scripture exists. To say that we cannot know what Jesus says when he says it directly in scripture is to say we cannot know Jesus. I reject that.

It is others that have said we cannot know or understand. I think we can; I just think we aren’t paying attention to the overall message of the Gospels. I was responding to the statement that my thoughts may not be consistent with the teaching of Jesus, and was saying that I didn’t know and is something that I am working through; the questions: Just what are the teachings of Jesus? Do they lead me to God? How? What must I do? That is the essence of my journey.

The premise of your second paragraph is false. The existence of Satan does not demonstrate that either God is impotent or unloving. Quite the opposite, because God is all powerful, the existence of Satan is no threat to him and because God is love itself, Satan could both rebel and continue to exist.

Then why can’t we as well? If Satan is not a threat to God, how can we humans be? If God loves and allows Satan, the “Prince of Darkness”, to exist unscathed, should we not also fall under that “rule” and be assured of our ultimate union with Him?

Were God playing with us, he would fix what would then become the* game* of life so that we could neither err, nor stray from him, nor fail. Because he made us powerful and free, because he did not make us puppets, we were able to lead the world away from communion with God. Because he respects that autonomy and freedom, God was willing to live and die as a human being rather than compromise it. That, my friend, is love.

That wouldn’t be much of a game (I think there is an old Twilight Zone that covers that topic). I like that you say “we were able to to lead the world away from” God; that is my point! We, not a supernatural creature, do this to ourselves and each other.

If I may be so bold, I think we put too much emphasis on the Love that Jesus showed for us by dying on the Cross. Will an acceptance of that alone bring us to God? That is what most Protestant fundamentalists seem to emphasize. Catholics, at least many of them, ALSO emphasize the Way Jesus gave us to follow. The Resurrection shows us what is possible, our goal; but doing the will of God as Jesus taught us is the means to achieve that goal. So to me, the emphasis should be on the latter. This is the START of answering the questions in my first paragraph (if I am getting away from the original topic, I apologize; it just kind of fit at this point).

Peace to you and to all.