Why doesn't God just destroy the devil?

[Norrin]

The Gospel is pretty consistent with its message, in both Mark and Luke as well. I do not see any contradictions or deliberate manipulation that says otherwise. Can you point us to some of your observations? This will help tremendously.

Good questions! First, Catholics do not believe in Sola Scriptura, so there are other sources other than the Bible where Satan has manifested himself, and not all those sources are good. Hell, as other posters have mentioned, is both a state of being and a place, according to Scripture. It is where you are absent from the presence of God and it also is a place of suffering, a.k.a. the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire could be thought of as a second death. As for where is hell? Well, if you are referring to real estate, who knows? No one, right? Who can say other than the infernal spirits where it is? As for where is Satan? Satan is in this world. He is the prince of this world, as revealed to us in Scripture.

How can Satan tempt God? That mystery has something to do with God becoming man. Remember, Catholics and other Christian faiths believe that God is Three Persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. God, through the Son, came into this world as a man, subject to pain and all temptation that men are vulnerable to. But he also retained his divinity, so he was both flesh and spirit. To allow himself to be tempted by the Devil has something to do with reversing the temptation that Adam and Eve succumbed to in the Garden of Eden. In the Garden, it was Satan who tempted Adam and Eve, and Christ had to allow himself to be tempted the very same way in order for him to undue the damage. But Christ was victorious, and Satan was wrought with anger and rage. This is not wholly understood, but we do know it has something to do with reversing what happened in the Garden of Evil.

As to why God just doesn’t smite the Devil and destroy him, I’ve already mentioned that it has something to do with his divine plan. His divine plan has something to do with us living with him in peace and ultimate love for eternity. The existence of evil and Satan and our struggles against them strengthen our faith and spirituality, which are necessary in order to get closer to him. I could only say that God does not want us to serve as automatons that know nothing but blind service to him. He embued us with free will so that we could make up our own minds to serve him, and do good. If we choose to not serve, then we don’t deserve to be with him.

Yes, I suppose God could have removed the evil from Satan’s heart, but that would contradict free will, wouldn’t it?Instead, what God did was remove him from Heaven and removed him from his presence. But he also allowed Satan and a third of the angels that revolted to retain their powers. All I can say is that by studying the Bible and how it affects humanity, one could easily come to the conclusion that somehow resistance to evil is what makes our spirituality stronger. The more you resist temptation and seduction, the stronger you get. The stronger you get, the clearer and more visible God’s presence becomes. This is what I see.

Goodness always triumphs! This is in the long run. So far, in the cases that I am referring to, the ones that were in the losing end of wars had Christianity brought to them. As Jesus said, “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword”. And that is what happened. For some reason, in this world, as written in the Bible, wars are necessary and part of our make-up as human beings. War is constant and war brings about change, for better or for worse. But Christianity has remained triumphant in 2000 years.

As for the power of Satan, I’m not too sure that Satan is completely disobedient to Christ. During exorcisms, he consistently states that he is subservient to Christ. There is also a great story regarding Pope Leo XIII. Here it is:

I do not remember the exact year. One morning the great Pope Leo XIII had celebrated a Mass and, as usual, was attending a Mass of thanksgiving. Suddenly, we saw him raise his head and stare at something above the celebrant’s head. He was staring motionlessly, without batting an eye. His expression was one of horror and awe; the color and look on his face changing rapidly. Something unusual and grave was happening in him.

Finally, as though coming to his senses, he lightly but firmly tapped his hand and rose to his feet. He headed for his private office. His retinue followed anxiously and solicitously, whispering: ‘Holy Father, are you not feeling well? Do you need anything?’ He answered: ‘Nothing, nothing.’

When asked what had happened, he explained that, as he was about to leave the foot of the altar, he suddenly heard voices - two voices, one kind and gentle, the other guttural and harsh. They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation:

The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: “I can destroy your Church.” The gentle voice of Our Lord: “You can? Then go ahead and do so.” Satan: “To do so, I need more time and more power.” Our Lord: “How much time? How much power?” Satan: “75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over to my service.” Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will.

This tells me that Satan plays a critical part in our spiritual development.

Evil, which is independent from Satan but goes hand to hand, does exist in every person. We are born with original sin, and we’re fallen. Baptism washes away original sin and orients us to God. Most evil that we see in our everyday life does indeed come from us, and not Satan. You are correct. But that does not mean that Satan does not exist and he does not assist us in committing sin.

 

[Norrin]

The Gospel is pretty consistent with its message, in both Mark and Luke as well. I do not see any contradictions or deliberate manipulation that says otherwise. Can you point us to some of your observations? This will help tremendously.

My response above is for Chauncey Gardner.

 

[Biggie]

Just what are the teachings of Jesus? Do they lead me to God? How? That is the essence of my journey.

I want to avoid long responses since I’m not very good at them.

I’m not ignoring what you responded, but would take up just a point or two. My answer here is humility. In humility, I accept the interpretation of the Catholic Church, which actually compiled the scriptures and for two thousand years has preserved and defended them with the blood of martyrs and the lives of the blessed. I know I am not individually capable of duplicating the effort the church has invested in scriptures for 2000 years nor do I think snatching out verses and changing course based on some thought I have about a 21st century reading of them is worthy. If that worked, we wouldn’t be cursed with literally hundreds of creeds based on someone’s individual reading or supposed inspiration.

If I may be so bold, I think we put too much emphasis on the Love that Jesus showed for us by dying on the Cross. Will an acceptance of that alone bring us to God? That is what most Protestants seem to emphasize. Catholics, at least many of them, ALSO emphasize the Way Jesus gave us to follow. The Resurrection shows us what is possible, our goal; but doing the will of God as Jesus taught us is the means to achieve that goal. So to me, the emphasis should be on the latter. This is the START of answering the questions in my first paragraph (if I am getting away from the original topic, I apologize; it just kind of fit at this point).

Peace

Jesus said we have but two commandments to keep that sum the whole of scripture: Love God with all our energy, and love others as we love ourselves.

How much emphasis on love is too much? And whose emphasis is it anyway, ours or God’s?

 

[chaunceygardner]

Originally Posted by Norrin
The Gospel is pretty consistent with its message, in both Mark and Luke as well. I do not see any contradictions or deliberate manipulation that says otherwise. Can you point us to some of your observations? This will help tremendously.

My response above is for Chauncey Gardner.

Sure. But considering that the elves are very busy and the reindeer are chomping at the bit to get started, please allow me a couple of days to respond. Believe it or not, there are matters much more important than dialogue on the CAF that we all should attend to.

And please be aware that they will not be my observations, but those of biblical scholars over the past 200 years or so. For starters, I would recommend reading the introductions to the Gospels that appear in the NAB (available on the USCCB website if you don’t have that version at home).

Finally, if the Gospels were as “consistent” and clear as you say, we likely wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Talk to you later.

Peace.

 

[chaunceygardner]

I want to avoid long responses since I’m not very good at them.

I’m not ignoring what you responded, but would take up just a point or two. My answer here is humility. In humility, I accept the interpretation of the Catholic Church, which actually compiled the scriptures and for two thousand years has preserved and defended them with the blood of martyrs and the lives of the blessed. I know I am not individually capable of duplicating the effort the church has invested in scriptures for 2000 years nor do I think snatching out verses and changing course based on some thought I have about a 21st century reading of them is worthy. If that worked, we wouldn’t be cursed with literally hundreds of creeds based on someone’s individual reading or supposed inspiration.

Not a problem. I agree with humility, but perhaps less toward the Church and more toward Jesus and those who follow in His path. I humble myself before them and their example.

**Jesus said we have but two commandments to keep that sum the whole of scripture: Love God with all our energy, and love others as we love ourselves.

How much emphasis on love is too much? And whose emphasis is it anyway, ours or God’s?**

I bolded this because it is the crux of all the Gospels. Your understanding is, as Jesus says, “not far from the Kingdom of God”. You have said exactly what I would say. Thank you. And there is no limit to the emphasis, as there is no limit to love. And the emphasis by God already exists; now it is our turn to reciprocate in doing what you quote.

A very, very excellent response. You have made my day. And I think there is a little extra joy in heaven.

Again,
Peace

 

[Biggie]

Not a problem. I agree with humility, but perhaps less toward the Church and more toward Jesus and those who follow in His path. I humble myself before them and their example.

To which I can only respond - ? “those who follow his path” begs all kinds of questions and points away from the humility you just professed.

I bolded this because it is the crux of all the Gospels. Your understanding is, as Jesus says, “not far from the Kingdom of God”. You have said exactly what I would say. Thank you. And there is no limit to the emphasis, as there is no limit to love. And the emphasis by God already exists; now it is our turn to reciprocate in doing what you quote.

A very, very excellent response. You have made my day. And I think there is a little extra joy in heaven.

Again,
Peace

Yes it is, but I sense you need now only consider what love implies - freedom of the lover and the beloved and equity between lover and beloved. Properly understood, this explains all. Ask yourself how is freedom and equity established between the prime and omnipotent being and the creature?

 

[chaunceygardner]

To which I can only respond - ? “those who follow his path” begs all kinds of questions and points away from the humility you just professed.

I must apologize for not following this at all. What questions and why does it point away from humility to follow in the path that Jesus created for us? We may be talking about different things here.

Yes it is, but I sense you need now only consider what love implies - freedom of the lover and the beloved and equity between lover and beloved. Properly understood, this explains all. Ask yourself how is freedom and equity established between the prime and omnipotent being and the creature?

By faith and trust? God created us, loves us and believes in us, we in turn are to have faith and trust in God. We also have the Word and the example that Jesus gave us, our connection between the earthly realm and the spiritual. To Love God we need to love one another, for in doing so we are “loving others as He has loved us”, and those others are really Him, for “what we do to the least of these we do to Him.” So we have the freedom to Love without limitation, and the equity is established through finding Jesus in everyone with whom we come in contact.

That is how I see it. Unless I again have misunderstood your post.

 

[Detales]

Hi Prettylarge,

(part 1)

It says in the Bible that Jesus (Iusu, or Ieshua, actually) taught the public in parables and then took His disciples aside and told them all in fullness. (Mark 4:33,34) While we seem to think that “only” Jesus taught in parables, the use of teaching tales has been around since the dawn of Mankind’s ability to put words together in stories. Even today we hear “it’s kind of like this:…” or “Did you hear the one about…?” That sort of thing ranges for gossip to Gospels. Even Guatama Buddha told stories and made similies, some of them wonderful and worthy of attention simply on the grounds of their practicality.

We tend to forget, though, that even the books Bible itself is, though they may include some history and actual places, largely were intended as teaching tools. And what are the authors or revelators of “spiritual” Truth attempting to do? They are attempting to make a presentation that will convey maps for the mind of listeners through the ages who wish to do anything from hear a story to save their souls.

One of the things that storytellers discovered early on is that a story can be like Music. It can have a chordal structure, that is to say notes stacked on top of each other, and more subtly, harmonics. Very good story tellers know this and take full advantage of it. And some story tellers, such as some of the ones who wrote the stories found in the Bible knew very well, from many years of experience, how to tell a story that accomplished many things in a single telling.* This was very useful, as in societies not even too long ago, when there wasn’t twitter and TV, people actually got together and told each other stories. That was done both for entertainment and for information, including Teaching.

Over centuries, the more useful and deeper stories pertinent to how men and women could change in matters of Soul, became more or less codified, and even written down. For interesting reasons, the ones passed on verbally changed less than the ones written down, but that is another story.

In any case, the Bible is a collection of those Teaching tales that often resemble history, and are made, by some religions more than others, into history books by belief instead of text books by function. The stories in the Bible are Teaching tales by function if one has ears to hear and someone who is telling them knows what the stacked notes and harmonics mean. This is rare today. But it is important, as well, in case the tales are misunderstood or misused. But mostly there is benevolent ignorance about them, due, actually to their very structure.

You have to imagine that you are a story teller who has powerful information to pass on to just a few people who can actually understand it. Your audience will range from infants to people who have a sincere longing to discover both who and what they are relative to the world around them and the invisible Something that seems to keep things in order. Much of that is known to a few, but is not easy to transmit. Moreover it is not useful for many to know it, and may actually do harm to some. And some might distort the meaning of the knowledge due to their simple inability to grasp certain kinds of ideas.

For this reason the stories used in Teaching have many levels. They are good stories. They demonstrate psychological truths. And they are seeds for spiritual truths and their harmonics. The story teller could tell who responded to what level of the story by the questions they asked. So there was a sort of filtering system within the stories themselves that served the intention of the teller, if the teller knew in the first place what the higher meanings in a story were. So, according to the response, a competent teller could sort out their audience and go with the questions peculiar to any group. Ultimately there were a few who could bear the full meaning of the stories and all their levels. There is a great story, even, about how that happens!

 

[Detales]

(part 2)

So when we read something like the story of the Garden of Eden or the Fall of Lucifer, they are interesting and dramatic stories. They get our attention as they are designed to do. Imagine! A battle in Heaven, and a fall that effects all of human history. What greater drama! And drama is always about something at stake. The bigger the stakes, the bigger the drama!

But where does the drama actually take place? If the story is told well, it sounds like history. But an astute hearer knows, or feels, that there is something more. The hearer feels themselves involved in the drama and starts to have questions. Some questioners are easily satisfied and go their way and take the story at the level they are capable of handling. But some are always provoked to more and more unrest. And that makes the really good story teller smile. I would imagine that Jesus was very happy to take aside His apostles and a few others and “reveal all” that He had to give beyond the veils of the wonderful stories He told.

But today we are not so fortunate. The ones who know the harmonics of the stories in the Bible are few, and and the ones who know them in their fullness are very rare. So, for the masses, (pun intended) we have religion as we see it. For a few, that is not enough, and they ask questions. Those questions are sometimes answered to their satisfaction, and sometimes not. The questioner can either sublimate their search back into faith, or actually become active in a search for Truth. That is a risky proposition. One man said, correctly, that “The search for Truth is the most dangerous undertaking; it will destroy your world.”

And why will it destroy your world? It will destroy it because you will have to examine and assess all of the propositions you accept about the world and its Nature. And that include what you think about who and especially what you are. And that can be very disconcerting. That is why such searches are often done under guidance, if one is so supremely fortunate. But in any case, there are brave souls who venture forth on their quest and find the world transformed. Some do not. But in all cases, the stories, even the ones found in the Bible, are wonderful seeds.

A book that is a superb explanation of this, with excellent illustrations from the Gospels, is Maurice Nicoll's *The New Man: An Interpretation of Some Miracles and Parables of Christ*

 

[Biggie]

I must apologize for not following this at all. What questions and why does it point away from humility to follow in the path that Jesus created for us? We may be talking about different things here.

You added “less toward the Church and more toward those who follow his path” which sets you against two thousand years of scholarship as the arbiter of who “follows his path”. That is where the humility seems to evaporate.

By faith and trust? God created us, loves us and believes in us, we in turn are to have faith and trust in God. We also have the Word and the example that Jesus gave us, our connection between the earthly realm and the spiritual. To Love God we need to love one another, for in doing so we are “loving others as He has loved us”, and those others are really Him, for “what we do to the least of these we do to Him.” So we have the freedom to Love without limitation, and the equity is established through finding Jesus in everyone with whom we come in contact.

That is how I see it. Unless I again have misunderstood your post.

As I see it, others are not God. God is God and others are others. God is to be loved to achieve the fulfillment of the human being. Others are to be loved that we might behave as God behaves, bringing the divine order into the material world we rule.

But you have still not addressed how an infinite, omnipotent prime being and a creature made by him achieve equity and freedom. And frankly, the initial question of this thread goes right to this point. A person cannot doubt the ability of Satan to depart from God, or the ability of man to permanently depart from God and thus be condemned, unless one understands the requirements of love. Nor can one expect God to manipulate the world in such a way that evil does not prevail and people come to no harm by it if one understands the requirements of love.

Love is the good news, yes, but love is also the bad news.

 

[James_S_Saint]

I don’t understand this. If God is all powerful and good, why doesn’t he just destroy the devil? If the devil is the source of evil, and God lets the devil exist, isn’t God supporting evil? It is as if by allowing the devil to exist, the devil is just another part of God. Does this make sense to you guys? What is the reasoning behind God not destroying the devil?

I first thought about defending God’s position on this issue, but realized that it isn’t a God issue. It is a Son of God issue and a Catholic issue.

Depends on how you look at it.

I beleive one day Jesus will return and all sin and evil will be completely abolished. Why he doesn’t do it right now? I don’t know. I trust that he has a good reason though.

Another thought is that God created angels to me immortal. So satan simply can’t be killed by design.

Anyone else have a theory?

You believe correctly.

The question is “If the Catholic represents the Son of God, why doesn’t the Church display the power of that Son?”

The common and most popular excuse is, “That would impinge upon freedom of choice.” But that excuse merely reveals a serious lack of understanding of both God and Jesus and is in effect, not really true. So what is the REAL reason?

I have recently been talking to a Mormon who was raised Catholic and married Catholic, but then after moving next door to a much disfavored Mormon family, became Mormon. How does that happen? The man is obviously intelligent and earnest. He authored a book and is very considerate and conservative in his manner, defending his thoughts with reasoning, not rebellion.

I understand why the Mormons lose members and can’t do so many things that Jesus can do yet still claim to be Jesus’ power on Earth (along with many others). But what is the real reason that the Catholic Church does not display such either?

I can only surmise that they are right when they say, “one day, He will come back and fix it.” But the odd thing to me is that the power to fix it is already in their hands. They seem to merely not know how to use it. Or possibly have no desire to. I prefer to believe the former.

VERY many people desire to accept Jesus. VERY many. They openly and privately beg for it. Yet they do not see it in the Catholic Church. Why? What is the Church NOT doing? The solution is within You - the Church. Why is the Devil still so actively harassing people after 2000 years when SO many have pleaded to be with Jesus and God.

“If you are not with Me, then you are against me.” Jesus did not shake hands or even tolerate the Devil.

I am pretty sure I know why the Church isn’t ridding the Earth of foolishness in Jesus’ manner. But I’m not sure that they are trying.

 

[Number_47]

It would seem that most of the conversation is leaning towards notion of consequence. I would have to say that whether divine or civil, the consequence is a major factor in alot of how anyone might interperate anthing about the devil. In the west there has been an increased following of moral relativism, thus the ideas of a supreme good or evil is rejected. Those who claim a more liberal view of the world see this and as such cannot and maybe perhaps will not try to understand some of these issues. From an ideological perspective, you can’t hope to have a conversation about good and evil in this manner. A conversation meaning a debate or sharing of view points, instead of just a pointed lecture. From either side, this is why we call it faith after all.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

James

The question is “If the Catholic represents the Son of God, why doesn’t the Church display the power of that Son?”

It does display that power. You just don’t see it.

The common and most popular excuse is, “That would impinge upon freedom of choice.” But that excuse merely reveals a serious lack of understanding of both God and Jesus and is in effect, not really true. So what is the REAL reason?

Why is it a serious lack of understanding of both God and Jesus?

*VERY many people desire to accept Jesus. VERY many. They openly and privately beg for it. Yet they do not see it in the Catholic Church. *

VERY many people, well over a billion souls, do see it in the Catholic Church. So what is your point?

Many of your thoughts are conclusions without evidence for them. Perhaps you could develop your thoughts more fully?

 

[Cat_Herder]

I don’t understand this. If God is all powerful and good, why doesn’t he just destroy the devil?

God decreed that spirits cannot be destroyed. The devil is a spirit (specifically a fallen angel). Hence, the devil cannot be destroyed, although his lot is to be thrown into hell for all eternity which is far worse than simply being destroyed (Rev 20:10).

Yes, God is omnipotent. But God is also unchanging (Mal 3:6). For God to destroy the devil He would have to change something that He decreed, and that is not consistent with God’s nature.

 

[The_Exodus]

I don’t understand this. If God is all powerful and good, why doesn’t he just destroy the devil? If the devil is the source of evil, and God lets the devil exist, isn’t God supporting evil? It is as if by allowing the devil to exist, the devil is just another part of God. Does this make sense to you guys? What is the reasoning behind God not destroying the devil?

God doesn’t destroy the devil for the same reason he does (or doesn’t) do anything else: His will.

Further, the same question could reasonably be turned around and asked about us. Why doesn’t God simply destroy all evildoers immediately? In fact, why did he not annihilate each of us, the moment of our first sin?

Again, he must will not to. And keeping the devil in existence must serve his overall purpose, by which he orders all things to his glory.

 

[KellyAnn1963]

Lucifer did not start out bad.He was one of God’s angels, one of His creations, His child. No matter what Lucifer did or does he is God’s child also and God loves him.

I have four children, no matter what they do or have done, I love them. I might not be happy with what they do or have done and I might cut ties with them if they did something horrible but I will never stop loving them or wish them harm.

 

[rapture14GOD]

People have become so desensitized over the years. Atheism is just an answer to not knowing but it’s not accepting because the human mind tends to doubt what it can figure out. God is not our logic even though we are made in the image we won’t have all the answers because its beyond realms of here. Spirituality is Something we can only try to cover the definition with intelligence but unfortunately we use our gifts in the wrong way being in our sinful nature. The Devil doesn’t care if u believe in him, just wants u to not believe In God. Doubt is just as strong as faith is because doubt is still a belief. Its believing in something like logic. Doubt is what grows to make one spiritually weak. Everything has an opposite. Doubt is intelligence used in a defense against failure. God doesn’t owe us an explanation. Its like your kid asking u why can’t do something. U don’t have to tell your kid but u can. God is holy so revealing Gods wisdom comes to a true seeker.

 

[rapture14GOD]

Parenting is a relation to understanding. Knowledge can be a curse for it demands reasons the mind can’t fathom because Gods ways are beyond our comprehension. Even if u know&turn away then its still wrong. Like if a child doesn’t believe in the house rules then it still stands as the house rules are there & should be followed. The kid may not understand but that still doesn’t change the rules in place. We can be defiant & disobey or be punished like a parent would to their child. Its a life lesson of learning. Not everyone will get a passing grade. Plus how is anyone supposed to do high school work if they can’t pass 1st grade? The internet is a confusing book because it has a little of everything or should I say a lot but anyway its recorded documented history. The Bible was the old internet to connect with. Even if stories boggle the brain its still the point that exists. Just because can’t completely understand something doesn’t mean its fake/false.

 

[rapture14GOD]

Parenting is a relation to understanding. Knowledge can be a curse for it demands reasons the mind can’t fathom because Gods ways are beyond our comprehension. Even if u know&turn away then its still wrong. Like if a child doesn’t believe in the house rules then it still stands as the house rules are there & should be followed. The kid may not understand but that still doesn’t change the rules in place. We can be defiant & disobey or be punished like a parent would to their child. Its a life lesson of learning. Not everyone will get a passing grade. Plus how is anyone supposed to do high school work if they can’t pass 1st grade? The internet is a confusing book because it has a little of everything or should I say a lot but anyway its recorded documented history. The Bible was the old internet to connect with. Even if stories boggle the brain its still the point that exists. Just because can’t completely understand something doesn’t mean its fake/false.

 

[kingston1]

I don’t understand this. If God is all powerful and good, why doesn’t he just destroy the devil? If the devil is the source of evil, and God lets the devil exist, isn’t God supporting evil? It is as if by allowing the devil to exist, the devil is just another part of God. Does this make sense to you guys? What is the reasoning behind God not destroying the devil?

I am reading Robinson Crusoe and Friday (Crusoe’s Island mate), so named because Crusoe found him on Friday, when he learned English asked Crusoe the same exact question.

Chapter 19

Friday: “If God much might, much might as the devil, why God no kill the devil, so make him do no more wicked?”

Crusoe: “God will at last punish him severely, he is reserved for the judgment, and is to be cast into the bottomless pit, to dwell in everlasting fire… why God does not kill you and I, when we do wicked things here that offend Him? We are preserved to repent and be pardoned.”