Why doesn't God just destroy the devil?

[tonyrey]

Are you saying that this passage is not true? Remember, it doesn’t matter to me. I am just trying to point out the fallacies in some of the beliefs I have hear expressed in this thread.

Snippets can be used to prove anything. That text from Jeremiah may well be a prophecy of the Messiah.

The Christian/Catholic God is either all-knowing or He is not. If He is all knowing, then he knows the condition of a person’s soul, or whatever Satan has, before they were ever created. If so, some rather unpleasant implications follow about the nature of the Christian God.

“If” is the key word. You have not explained how a **non-existent **person’s decisions are knowable.

If he is not all knowing, life is a ****-shoot, which is what I believe.

You don’t seem to regard life as utterly valueless, purposeless and meaningless! I wonder why…

 

[oldcelt]

Snippets can be used to prove anything. That text from Jeremiah may well be a prophecy of the Messiah.

“If” is the key word. You have not explained how a **non-existent **person’s decisions are knowable.

You don’t seem to regard life as utterly valueless, purposeless and meaningless! I wonder why…

I used scripture to show that God knows all of us before we are ever born under the Abrahamic/Christian model. Having no personal knowledge is something we all suffer from…although to hear some preachers you’d never believe it.

If life were truly set up as my former faith believed, I would find it to be a cruel joke perpetrated by an all powerful being. Since I don’t believe that any longer, I can peacefully say that I have no idea what is going to happen…and neither does anyone else…earthly or other.

 

[vincent10395]

Then He is not all-knowing, if He desires something that he already knows isn’t going to happen, that would be crazy.

“God is Love” and He wants everyone to share in kingdom. Just because God knows not everyone will be saved doesn’t mean He can’t desire for it. He created us, and He is our Father!

 

[tonyrey]

*Snippets can be used to prove anything. That text from Jeremiah may well be a prophecy of the Messiah.

You still have not explained how a **non-existent **person’s decisions are knowable.

If life were truly set up as my former faith believed, I would find it to be a cruel joke perpetrated by an all powerful being. Since I don’t believe that any longer, I can peacefully say that I have no idea what is going to happen…and neither does anyone else…earthly or other.

Your former faith seems to have been defective with its false assumptions!

 

[oldcelt]

You still have not explained how a **non-existent **person’s decisions are knowable.
Your former faith seems to have been defective with its false assumptions!

I think that you are correct.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I can peacefully say that I have no idea what is going to happen…and neither does anyone else…earthly or other.

:twocents:

I am not sure what time is all about. I can speak about this moment since I am most definitely here.
That things were before and will be after, seems to be clear from memory and the fact that whatever happens in the moment is in a state of transformation, coming in and out of being, or going around and arond.
This experience arises as the result of being linked to an almost infinite number of interconnected events on “huge” micro and macroscopic levels.
However the whole is connected, whatever its structure that includes time and space, God as Creator, is beyond it, being one, being simply what He is.

He created and maintains the cosmos.
Within this mystery of existence, in this moment, alive and choosing, I participate in the creation of my destiny.
Of course God knows how this ends; He is with me on my death bed, with me at conception, with me in each moment, as now.

He reveals Himself through scripture and through the grace of the Holy Spirit. He reveals Himself, piercing the veil of our ignorance so that we all will know Him face to face in eternity.

He knows when we stray; He warns us when, like Cain, we are about to succumbe to sin.
He loves us in spite of our sins and, becoming man, He has offered us a second chance.
Our species is not doomed to the fate of a second class demon, to live out short pointless lives in misery.
We can become what we were meant to be: loving persons.

We don’t know what will happen, but we help decide what will happen.
At the fork in the road, we choose the path to take.
The rest is in His hands, His divine mercy.

 

[tonyrey]

*You still have not explained how a **non-existent ***

That is not surprising in view of thousands of sects which have sprung up since the Reformation. Jesus didn’t bequeath us a Bible that can be misinterpreted but a community which has survived for two thousand years…

 

[oldcelt]

That is not surprising in view of thousands of sects which have sprung up since the Reformation. Jesus didn’t bequeath us a Bible that can be misinterpreted but a community which has survived for two thousand years…

I was a Catholic for almost 50 years and in the midst of heavily studying my faith when I encountered these issues. They eventually completely altered by vision of God. I have continued my search but cannot reconcile my past belief s with what I see as the available evidence.

 

[Aloysium]

I was a Catholic for almost 50 years and in the midst of heavily studying my faith when I encountered these issues. They eventually completely altered by vision of God. I have continued my search but cannot reconcile my past belief s with what I see as the available evidence.

This makes for an interesting scenario.

The devil plants a seed in someone’s mind/soul that God is evil.
It is far better to have no god than an evil god.
Believing that God is distant, uncaring and hopefully nonexistent offers no consolation in this world of pain and sin.

What are we left with? All we can do is to love, in spite of it all. There is nothing else that is meaningful, that matters.
“With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation’s wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan.”
Love is the supreme Ground of all being.

Why does God not destroy the devil? There is no need since he does not hinder our ability to love.
And, it would probably be that if there were no devil, we would just have to create him to justify our lack of love.

What God did, that is miraculous, is to create beings with free choice; we do the rest.

 

[oldcelt]

This makes for an interesting scenario.

The devil plants a seed in someone’s mind/soul that God is evil.
It is far better to have no god than an evil god.
Believing that God is distant, uncaring and hopefully nonexistent offers no consolation in this world of pain and sin.

What are we left with? All we can do is to love, in spite of it all. There is nothing else that is meaningful, that matters.
“With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation’s wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan.”
Love is the supreme Ground of all being.

Why does God not destroy the devil? There is no need since he does not hinder our ability to love.
And, it would probably be that if there were no devil, we would just have to create him to justify our lack of love.

What God did, that is miraculous, is to create beings with free choice; we do the rest.

Interesting analysis. As you can probably see, my main issue was the notion of an omniscient Creator/God. To my sense, if a God is both it creates some real problems so far as a loving deity. What I see in most faiths is an attempt to reconcile this , or blithely ignore it.
You are right in another thing: deism was my stop short of atheism. I see a god who began creation with no preconceived notion of the outcome. Each of us is a product of our parent’s union and nothing more, and there is no plan for my, or anyone else’s life.
I may be wrong, which is the reason I continue to search, but I am much closer to spiritual peace right now, I no longer expect things from god that cannot be delivered.

John

 

[tonyrey]

I was a Catholic for almost 50 years and in the midst of heavily studying my faith when I encountered these issues. They eventually completely altered by vision of God. I have continued my search but cannot reconcile my past belief s with what I see as the available evidence.

Then there may well be inconsistency between your past beliefs and your present interpretation of the available evidence, either or both of which may be incorrect.

One possible error is your belief that a **non-existent **person’s decisions are knowable.

 

[oldcelt]

Then there may well be inconsistency between your past beliefs and your present interpretation of the available evidence, either or both of which may be incorrect.

One possible error is your belief that a **non-existent **person’s decisions are knowable.

Nothing is unknowable to an omniscient creator god. He knows what he is going to create, he knows what it will do, he knows the outcome.

John

 

[tonyrey]

Nothing is unknowable to an omniscient creator god. He knows what he is going to create, he knows what it will do, he knows the outcome.

The question, John, is whether everything is knowable. It is possible, for example, that God doesn’t know how He exists because it is a brute fact. The question is illegitimate because it assumes the Creator is in the same category as that which is created. Similarly the assumption that a non-existent person’s actions can be known is false because nothing can come from nothing. That is the difference between fact and fiction.

 

[fred_conty]

Interesting analysis. As you can probably see, my main issue was the notion of an omniscient Creator/God. To my sense, if a God is both it creates some real problems so far as a loving deity. What I see in most faiths is an attempt to reconcile this , or blithely ignore it.
You are right in another thing: deism was my stop short of atheism. I see a god who began creation with no preconceived notion of the outcome. Each of us is a product of our parent’s union and nothing more, and there is no plan for my, or anyone else’s life.
I may be wrong, which is the reason I continue to search, but I am much closer to spiritual peace right now, I no longer expect things from god that cannot be delivered.

John

That you are closer to spiritual peace in just one way, and that is, because you are free to reject a false god which you built. You wanted a loving god but perceived him as an unloving, indifferent god. So now you no longer have to struggle with finding an answer but are content to rest and let it lie there.

God has always been a mystery. Many things about him we can never really know but only come to some sort of comprimise with our intellect. But then if we understood God fully, then we would be god, for we would be equal with him.

Adam and Eve went down this path at the suggestion of the Devil.

We can never hope to resolve the problem of our knowledge being so inferior to God. There will always be those ideas which are larger than our little created minds can grasp. But what is important is not what we know but that we accept that what he tells us is true.

What is true with regard to your problem is that he told us he loves us. “No greater love does a man have than that he lay down his life for his friends.”
Jesus hung by his hands and feet for 3 hours. Isn’t that love? All the rest is just ashes. He came from a comfortable heaven and mounted a cross to show you and me just how much he loves us. What could show love more than that?

All the rest of the apparent problems of the acts of God will be shown to us in due time. But he asks now that we trust him.

Please go to confession so that you may receive him in Holy Communion, and then you will experience his love.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[oldcelt]

That you are closer to spiritual peace in just one way, and that is, because you are free to reject a false god which you built. You wanted a loving god but perceived him as an unloving, indifferent god. So now you no longer have to struggle with finding an answer but are content to rest and let it lie there.

God has always been a mystery. Many things about him we can never really know but only come to some sort of comprimise with our intellect. But then if we understood God fully, then we would be god, for we would be equal with him.

Adam and Eve went down this path at the suggestion of the Devil.

We can never hope to resolve the problem of our knowledge being so inferior to God. There will always be those ideas which are larger than our little created minds can grasp. But what is important is not what we know but that we accept that what he tells us is true.

What is true with regard to your problem is that he told us he loves us. “No greater love does a man have than that he lay down his life for his friends.”
Jesus hung by his hands and feet for 3 hours. Isn’t that love? All the rest is just ashes. He came from a comfortable heaven and mounted a cross to show you and me just how much he loves us. What could show love more than that?

All the rest of the apparent problems of the acts of God will be shown to us in due time. But he asks now that we trust him.

Please go to confession so that you may receive him in Holy Communion, and then you will experience his love.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

You are using a litany of arguments that I discounted some time ago. My issues, and the ones that took me from Christianity begin with the creation account and its implications. To my mind, if the accounts are taken as they are, the (G)od is highly complicit in the condemnation of many good people. I don’t believe it…you do…I’m not comfortable with it…you are.

I can’t trust an account…different from god…that has a god knowing the outcome of a person’s life to be destruction and yet still creating them. I can’t confess sins against things that I do not believe to be real. I did that long enough.

May you be at peace.

John

 

[oldcelt]

The question, John, is whether everything is knowable. It is possible, for example, that God doesn’t know how He exists because it is a brute fact. The question is illegitimate because it assumes the Creator is in the same category as that which is created. Similarly the assumption that a non-existent person’s actions can be known is false because nothing can come from nothing. That is the difference between fact and fiction.

We are at a standstill…but an all knowing, eternal deity, would know the thoughts and actions of everyone in linear time, since that god must be out of linear time .

 

[tonyrey]

We are at a standstill…but an all knowing, eternal deity, would know the thoughts and actions of everyone in linear time, since that god must be out of linear time .

Time never stands still! As soon as we say “now” the moment has disappeared forever. There is a famous poem by Lamartine:

" Ô temps ! suspends ton vol, et vous, heures propices !
Suspendez votre cours :" - Le lac