Why doesn't God reveal anything useful in scripture?

[FCEGM]

The supposition I am going with is that a book coming from God would be absolutely perfect and stand alone as proof of His existence. Imagine the way The Quran is supposed to be. It seems reasonable that a book coming from God would be absolutely perfect and contain amazing bits of knowledge of every kind.

And we see how well that works within Islam, don’t we? Your supposition is wrong; God’s written word is preparatory to His Self-Revelation in Jesus Christ. Sacred Scripture can only be understood in relation to HIM, thus it was never meant to be and is not now a scientific or theological encylopedia dealing with tidbits of God, but rather prepares one to receive the Living Word in and through His Church which alone has the authority to conserve and explain that Self-Revelation of God in Christ in its entirety - in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

And, I should add, as a Catholic you should accept Scripture for what it actually is, not for what you think it should have been.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

It is because, one can live without those informations.

 

[Big_Ro]

Knowledge of the world is useful and should be gathered, but is at best only useful for a relatively short period of time. Knowledge of God, on the other hand, is wisdom.
It is invaluable. Through scripture, the traditions of the apostles handed down to us in an unbroken chain and with the direction of Rome, we can gain true wisdom which is to say knowledge of God. It is useful for an eternity.

One served those that reclined at the table. Another sat and listened at the feet of Jesus. Who chose best?

Peace to you.

 

[WmJackP]

I respectfully disagree. There is an extraordinary amount of incredible material in the Bible. Prophecy that has come to pass (indeed, all the prophecies Jesus made have come to pass except for one, and that is regarding His return in glory), wisdom about the nature of man’s relationship with each other and God, truths of human suffering and the right way to live our lives. Scripture is unique amongst contemporary works and stands out in direct contradiction in terms of chaos vs. order and a loving God against a capricious one. There is literally tons of stuff that goes directly against your statement here, choose one thing, like the prologue of John’s gospel. It is incredible depth and nuance.

With regard to the codified law of Leviticus, you must take great care to read each book in its social and historical context. These laws are appropriate for the desert people the Israelites were at that time. Start by classifying literary genres like you would any text. Is it poem? Epic? Historic?

You really have not met the argument. What you describe as useful revelation is nothing more profound than quaint maxims less insightful (in my opinion) than those of Ben Franklin or Will Rogers. The prophesies you believe to be so accurate are at least as vague, and, perhaps even more vague than those of Nostradamus; subject to varied interpretations. The end of times, for example, has been a hot topic for centuries. It likely has looked like the “end of times” to the many motley communities of peoples who have been rounded up, hung, gassed, trampled upon, visited by warfare and disease and otherwise reduced to “brink of extinction” status over the many centuries that these books have been in circulation. Any one of these many groups could have made a compelling case that this is “the end of the line” and the bible must have had them in mind. In fact, I think, a well respected community of scholars would say that John’s description of the so called 666 beast was really Nero and the end was just about to land on everyone’s front pourch, but, the Christians had an inside track that would make things OK in the end.

If there were an inspiring or prophetic message to be delivered by a Diety, I would have thought it would possess clarity, be applicable to the human species at large and possess authoratative content. Rather, the biblical advisory accounts are specific to the times (by your own admission), the maxims are not more very profound than any we have all heard elsewhere, and, the legends are no more otherwordly, informative or uplifting than those of other ancient cultures. The gospels are in conflict in places and while, Jesus must have truly lived and certainly I would never deny that many of his teachings are sage, some of it also doesn’t make much sense, and, that is probably because such parts are machinations of others, written in the decades after stories circulated, got edited, copied and recopied.

Jesus is believed to have worked his miracles to authenicate who He was—is that not so? Why then leave us with the same ambivalance which puts him on a par with David Copperfield and the stuff out of which legends are made? Miracles which are beyond dispute would be if He survived his death and actually lived on the earth well beyond a human life span (as some of the biblical personalities are reputed to have done) and long enough to be noticed by secualr historians. At the very least, you should expect to have the original texts; but, you don’t even have that. Rather what you call scripture exists in no earlier form than 300 or 400 year old copies of copies. Not very convincing particularly when the idea you are attempting to persuade us on is that it was necessary for God himself to atone for the sins of Adam and/or mankind. That is, indeed, vicarious responsibility in its most extreme form. Certainly, it is something which begs for an explanation and an evidentiary basis if you honestly expect it to be accepted by rational minds.

 

[Abba]

Jesus is believed to have worked his miracles to authenicate who He was—is that not so? Why then leave us with the same ambivalance which puts him on a par with David Copperfield and the stuff out of which legends are made? Miracles which are beyond dispute would be if He survived his death and actually lived on the earth well beyond a human life span (as some of the biblical personalities are reputed to have done) and long enough to be noticed by secualr historians. At the very least, you should expect to have the original texts; but, you don’t even have that. Rather what you call scripture exists in no earlier form than 300 or 400 year old copies of copies. Not very convincing particularly when the idea you are attempting to persuade us on is that it was necessary for God himself to atone for the sins of Adam and/or mankind. That is, indeed, vicarious responsibility in its most extreme form. Certainly, it is something which begs for an explanation and an evidentiary basis if you honestly expect it to be accepted by rational minds.

Dear WmJackP,

Your frustration is coming through loud and clear.

I am actually in the process of writing a unique book inwhere I present atheism as a stage of spiritual development. It is from this view that I will attempt to respond to the above statement. Let me be clear, I am stupid and ignorant and I am not a college professor. But, hey, I figure I could go ahead and write a book anyway. I am not, however, a complete embicile. I am willing to admit more wisdom than Socrates was willing to admit.

Now, where can I start…I think I know…

Do you know where you can start? You may need to back track a little bit to regain the correct direction. That is to obtain the knowledge and wisdom you are looking for? Are you willing to do that or will you be obstinate? The question is posed not so much so that you can answer it to me but so that you can in the silence of your heart and soul answer it to yourself with all sincerity.

What if in this journey that you are in for Truth you have fallen in a pit but the pit is so big you have not realized what has happened? There are people outside the pit that can clearly see your predicate and can lend a hand. It is up to you to take it. You are free to stay in the pit or to get out and keep on your journey.

You can argue with the people outside the pit until your are blue in the face that you are not in a pit and that would be your choice and sooner or later they will walk away and take the dust off, of the soil near the pit, from the soles of their shoes.

The first step is to be openned to find God as he is willing and ready to be found. Not the way YOU want to find him. Are you willing to do that or will PRIDE get in the way?

Peace,

Abba

 

[FightingFat]

You really have not met the argument. What you describe as useful revelation is nothing more profound than quaint maxims less insightful (in my opinion) than those of Ben Franklin or Will Rogers.

I would anticipate that you would necessarily take into account the limitations of time and effort presented by the internet forum media.

I am starting from the position of received opinion: that the writings held in the Bible have been considered special and unique by generations of human beings. A basic understanding of what the Bible is and what it contains would be enough to put you beyond quaint maxims!

The prophesies you believe to be so accurate are at least as vague, and, perhaps even more vague than those of Nostradamus; subject to varied interpretations.

Can you give me a specific example of a “vague” prophecy Jesus made?

The end of times, for example, has been a hot topic for centuries…In fact, I think, a well respected community of scholars would say that John’s description of the so called 666 beast was really Nero and the end was just about to land on everyone’s front pourch, but, the Christians had an inside track that would make things OK in the end.

A Catholic position would not be overly concerned with knowing when the end will come, in fact this is the exact prophecy I singled out as being yet unfulfilled, and is not contained in the book of Revelation. This book is a mysterious text and has many dimensions; it provides no system for calculating at what point in time things are going to occur. In fact, the striking aspect of Revelation is precisely that it is just when one thinks the end is truly now upon us that the whole thing starts again from the beginning. In other words, Revelation presents us with a mysterious mirror in which we see that tribulations continue, but without also being told exactly when and how an answer will come or when and how the Lord will show himself to us.

If there were an inspiring or prophetic message to be delivered by a Diety, I would have thought it would possess clarity, be applicable to the human species at large and possess authoratative content.

I think the Biblical account provides all these criteria!

Rather, the biblical advisory accounts are specific to the times (by your own admission), the maxims are not more very profound than any we have all heard elsewhere, and, the legends are no more otherwordly, informative or uplifting than those of other ancient cultures. The gospels are in conflict in places and while, Jesus must have truly lived and certainly I would never deny that many of his teachings are sage, some of it also doesn’t make much sense, and, that is probably because such parts are machinations of others, written in the decades after stories circulated, got edited, copied and recopied.

Whilst you are welcome to your opinion, I think you have fallen into the Dawkins trap. You have probably read criticism and maybe had preliminary contact with the text, but have you studied them? Are you aware of what they purport to any degree beyond the ordinary? It would seem not, or your argument would take a deeper vein. I would highly recommend reading both sides of an argument before you assume a position with such vigour!

Jesus is believed to have worked his miracles to authenicate who He was—is that not so? Why then leave us with the same ambivalance which puts him on a par with David Copperfield and the stuff out of which legends are made? Miracles which are beyond dispute would be if He survived his death and actually lived on the earth well beyond a human life span (as some of the biblical personalities are reputed to have done) and long enough to be noticed by secualr historians. At the very least, you should expect to have the original texts; but, you don’t even have that. Rather what you call scripture exists in no earlier form than 300 or 400 year old copies of copies. Not very convincing particularly when the idea you are attempting to persuade us on is that it was necessary for God himself to atone for the sins of Adam and/or mankind. That is, indeed, vicarious responsibility in its most extreme form. Certainly, it is something which begs for an explanation and an evidentiary basis if you honestly expect it to be accepted by rational minds.

It’s funny, because Jesus addresses your very point here Himself in Luke 16:19-31. Abraham’s answer—like Jesus’ answer to his contemporaries demand for signs in other contexts—is clear: if people do not believe the word of Scripture, then they will not believe someone coming from the next world either. The highest truths cannot be forced into the type of empirical evidence that only applies to material reality.

Abraham cannot send Lazarus to the rich man’s father’s house. But at this point something strikes us. We are reminded of the resurrection of Lazarus of Bethany, recounted to us in John’s Gospel. What happens there? The Evangelist tells us “Many of the Jews…believed in him” (Jn 11:45). They go to the Pharisees and report on what has happened, whereupon the Sanhedrin gathers to take counsel. They see the affair in a political light: If this leads to a popular movement it might force the Romans to intervene, leading to a dangerous situation. So they decide to kill Jesus. The miracle leads not to faith, but to a hardening of hearts (Jn 11:45-53).

 

[MtnDwellar]

I think that I can understand your point. If the scripture contained Maxwell’s laws and advanced science by thousands of years, it would go far to prove its authenticity.

I have to criticize your phrasing of the question. By saying that the contents are not useful, you are offending people.

The point of God’s word is not to provide proof. He could do many things that would be undisputed proof. When Christ walked the earth, even though He performed many miracles in front of witnesses, they were not proof to many. It was then as it is today. Inclusion of Maxwell’s laws would probably not be considered proof by many. The skeptics and non-believers could always justify their view.

 

[edwest2]

To paraphrase Pope John Paul II: The Bible does not tell us how the heavens go but how to get to heaven.

Yes, it’s wonderful that we have electricity and light and heat in our homes. We no longer burn candles - unless the power goes out. Most of us no longer chop wood or buy coal. Some even have a device to wash dishes. Still, human beings today are not fundamentally different from those of 2,000 years ago.

And so what if Maxwell’s Equation is not there? If it was, secular scholars would probably be sitting in their offices today saying, “Look what the Greeks figured out that the Christians put in their Bible.”

Here is the story of a scientist who learned something useful from the Bible.

“Matthew Maury (1806-1873) is considered the father of oceanography. His daughter was reading a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression “paths of the sea” in Psalms 8:8. Upon his recovery, Maury took God at his word and went looking for these paths. We are indebted to his discovery of the warm and cold continental currents. His book on oceanography is still considered a basic text on the subject and is still used in universities. Maury used the Bible as a guide to scientific discovery. If only more would use the Bible as a guide in their personal lives!”

Peace,
Ed

 

[WmJackP]

Dear WmJackP,
What if in this journey that you are in for Truth you have fallen in a pit but the pit is so big you have not realized what has happened? There are people outside the pit that can clearly see your predicate and can lend a hand. It is up to you to take it. You are free to stay in the pit or to get out and keep on your journey.

You can argue with the people outside the pit until your are blue in the face that you are not in a pit and that would be your choice and sooner or later they will walk away and take the dust off, of the soil near the pit, from the soles of their shoes.
Abba

What if it is you who are in the pit? There are people who say that rigid beliefs are for those without courage to question and to confront reality’s challenges. Should I be so fearful and feckless that I dare not question what to all appearances is so much improbable nonsense? Should I also accept such beliefs as those which you espouse in the face of what I sense and understand to be a real world with real problems? We don’t have a problem with belief in this country, We have a problem with people not seeing the trouble the earth is in and failing to take rational steps to erradicate human suffering and misery.

I see a church on nearly every corner of the midwestern city I live in. I see politicians constantly currying favor with believers, the television is full of evangelicals overflowing with platitudes and forever prideful of their claims of “being on fire”. So clearly you are in the majority. But I am compelled to be honest with myself and say that your “emperor has no clothes”; and, I believe that any brutally honest rational person will leave his cocoon of safety and conclude that, in spite of one’s early and formative years of inculcation, the set of doctrines comprising any given “faith” is like all the other otherworldly paradigms which co exist in other parts of the world, and, those which preceded it in history and over time—contrived, fashioned to suit banal needs, empty of content, and, pretending to create virtue from human suffering.

Life is hard, surely there is no question that this is so. Most of humanity struggles; I have been to parts of the world where people bathe and cook with the same river water. Most of humanity is without schooling, not given proper medical assistance, subject to exploitation; therefore, ripe for any solution with appeal. Thus evangelicals have had easy pickin’s in certain undeloped parts on this earth–but that doesn’t make these beliefs true. Rather, these systems only beguile and detract from what is truly mankind’s only and best hope, and, that isn’t Christianity, Islam or any other collage of mystic beliefs. I hope you agree that life cannot possibly be better for someone living in squalow to believe impossible syllogisms? That 3 in 1 make 1? That women can bear children and yet remain virgin? Would you not say that I was babbling like a fool if I told you that a square was really a circle? Can you not see that this is a form of mysticism? It does nothing–nor can it–to rid ourselves of disease, the tendency we possess to make war, poverty and all other forms of human degradation. We really must open our eyes and diligently employ rational solutions to resolve real problems. There are too many people on this planet who believe nonsense and are willing to fight and die for such.

We are the lucky ones though. While other parts of the world are on the brink of extinction because of grinding poverty, disease, corrupt governments and senseless warfare, we are consumed in this country by uncontrolled consumerism, greed and “fast food/drive up window” style solutions. Too many of us our under-educated, indulged beyond tolerance levels, and, imbued with the notion that the problems faced by us are well defined and the solutions all known with clarity. You think abortion is the scourge of the earth; that not enough catholics attend mass and we need to tithe more, that the president is a socialist and dozens of others wannabe problems; while being blind to what is really affecting the health and welfare of this nation. Taking charge of our existence, accepting responsibility for ourselves, begins with accepting reality. The sooner we do this, the better all mankind will be.

 

[Abba]

Hello WmJckP,

Thank you for responding to my post. I am honored. I am also humbled by the fact that you actually took the time to decipher my writing and understood what I was trying to express. You must have figured that ‘predicate’ was supposed to be ‘predicament’.

What if it is you who are in the pit?

Go ahead, hit me with all you got. Keep that sword coming!!! Don’t worry about me.I have armor on.

There is only one thing…you see, my situation is like a person who has been unemployed and was offered employment one hour before the end of the day. I will get a full day’s wage just like those others who have been working since day break. But, I don’t want them to complain too much when the boss starts to pay everyone. They may complain that it is not fair that they are getting a day’s wage and have worked all day and I only worked the last hour of the day and will be paid the same. The boss is just and he will keep his word and pay me a full day’s wage for only working the last hour of the working day, but, I don’t want the other employees complaining too much. I don’t want them to say that not only did I only work for the last hour but on top of that I was lazy and unproductive. So, you see, I don’t want to waste time.

About that pit, I can describe it to you, this way you will be able to look around and recognize it for what it is. Now, my hand may not be the one that you will reach out for to get out, but, perhaps, I can leave you at least considering getting out and perhaps the next person that walks by the pit and see you on the edge can respond to your final considerations and pull you out.

About your question: What if it is you who are in the pit?; I am not. There is no ‘if’ with me because I am outside of yours and can see the beautiful valleys, mountains, the path, and beutiful clear streams that can not be seen from the pit that you are in and I can see the complete and vast periphery of the pit you have fallen in and it’s depth.

Now, let’s back up a little…

You see, that pit is big and it is so big that you do not recognize it for what it is because exactly it is so big. It is so big that you do not think that you are in a pit and to top that you are not alone. There is alot of commotion and many activities to keep you dstracted and busy. There are even organizations and many who have settled down and have been there for generations. There is a lot going on in that pit. There are those who have decided enough with those that come near the edge and have formed militant groups to attack them. Some of the leaders have even have come to argue that the original reason of the search in that path they originally fell from - is no longer worth going after. We are fine here, they proclaim. The heck with God, we do not need him! As a matter of fact: We are God! And many, who are FOOLS echo the chant without thinking for themselves; We Are God! We Are God! Some simply do not like change and refuse to move on, as there are individuals in that pit there are reasons for being in it, staying in it or finally escaping it. That is one of the tricks of getting out, that is, to maintain your individuality and not follow the herd. It’s about you and God, your journey not mine nor theirs nor hers nor his - your exploration and journey. It’s like Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta said: In the end, it is between me and God. In others words you have to break away from the organizations in the pit that are pulling you in and THINK for yourself.

Peace for now, my son is getting ready for an interview with an alumnus of one of the universities he is applying to and I have to go iron…

Would you be so kind as to share YOUR religious background? Is there something personal that irritates you about admitting the existance of a God?

I hope this helps.

May the Peace of Our Lord Jesus be with you. You are in my humble prayers.

Peace,
Abba

 

[TimothyH]

This reminds me of Dostoevsky.

Btw, I know some of those CERN guys and gals.

I never read Dostoevsky and really have no clue. I guess I’ll take your comment to mean that I’m in good company, or at least in the same zip code.

When I was a teenager, a Protestant Physicist from Brookhaven Labs on Long Island was happy to explain to me how water, because of the shape of the molecule, is the only substance which gets less dense when it goes from liquid to solid. Ice therefor floats to the top of rivers, lakes and oceans rather than freezing the whole body of water solid, thus preserving the life underneath. With all his knowledge, this physicist confessed that he would never have been able to think of that and attributed the design to the Wisdom of God.

I’m sure Maxwell was a nice guy but his equation can go to Hell. I’m going ice fishing.

-Tim-

 

[nickybr38]

I haven’t read all the responses so I apologize if this has been said.

I believe everything in the Bible is useful and I think even those mandates about mixed threads, proper handling of leprosy and endless rules about cleanliness (I’m reading Leviticus right now, can you tell?) have their purpose.

I wonder sometimes if it wouldn’t all make more sense if we knew more about the people of that time but then I feel that’s silly. It must have meaning now, we’re just missing it somewhere, somehow.

Maybe the lesson is that God tests us with seemingly ‘unimportant’ tasks to see if we will be obedient? Perhaps He’s trying to teach us a little something about humility (doing things we don’t understand being the ultimate test of our ability to put aside our pride). There must be a reason.

 

[Ichthys4121517]

conservapedia.com/Biblical_scientific_foreknowledge

Don’t tell me Scripture doesn’t contain any useful information. I suppose guidelines for how to live a moral life that will please God and allow you to have eternal life with Him aren’t “useful” in your book.

You think abortion is the scourge of the earth; that not enough catholics attend mass and we need to tithe more, that the president is a socialist and dozens of others wannabe problems

You think that abortion is a “wannabe problem”? You sicken me. I’m sorry, but this has to be said. Abortion is murder on a massive scale. It is a VERY serious problem. What are you doing to solve the world’s problems, anyway? Certainly less than the Catholic Church has done. The Church has donated a massive amount of money to charity. The Church has promoted an attitude of chastity that has been statistically proven to reduce rates of divorce, abortions, and STDs (not to mention it saves money that people waste on birth control that could be better spent on their existing children and charity), and that has promoted a message of human dignity. You yourself admit that Jesus’ teachings are morally sound.

 

[Abba]

Wait a minute! Hold your horses!



WmJackP,

Are you a baptized Catholic? If not what’s with the ‘we’? If so, …well…we are going to get accused of getting off topic…but, perhaps if we run into each other again here, you can share why you left the Church.

But, you WmJackP, that’s what you want to face… Pardon me, I do not mean to be disrespectful, but, there is someone, I forget who right now who said that people leave the Catholic Church because they do not know what they are leaving., something like that, and I think that applies to you.That pit is miserable and you will never find peace there, it’s like Saint Augustine said; Our hearts are restless Lord, until they rest in thee. Something like that…

I think it would be good to change your religion to ex-Catholic. This way people will be able to serve you better.

You may want to pray to the Holy Spirit to give you wisdom and direction. Please pray for me and my children.

Peace,

Abba