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Gorgias
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I think he gets a kick outta seeing what you’ll come up with next…(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Why doesn’t God stop me From posting
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Cruciferi
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I can only hope I amuse God that much 
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KatyCatholic
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If there were a confirmed event where a bullet was stopped in midair, a hurricane inexplicably fizzles out, a murderer’s knife just disappears, the suicide guy falling from the san francisco bridge gently splashes in the water after falling hundreds of feet …
If God actively intervened and stopped all evil from happening, do you think that all the folks watching the news story about a miraculous, super-natural event would have a tendency to believe in God?
If God intervened and did not permit evil, everyone would know that God exists and the chances that the people chose God’s love out of their own free will … well now, we would almost be forced to believe with the irrefutable evidence at hand, huh? I wouldn’t have a choice but to believe, which is exactly opposite that of Christ’s message to us … blessed is he who believes without seeing.
If God actively intervened and stopped all evil from happening, do you think that all the folks watching the news story about a miraculous, super-natural event would have a tendency to believe in God?
If God intervened and did not permit evil, everyone would know that God exists and the chances that the people chose God’s love out of their own free will … well now, we would almost be forced to believe with the irrefutable evidence at hand, huh? I wouldn’t have a choice but to believe, which is exactly opposite that of Christ’s message to us … blessed is he who believes without seeing.
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steve-b
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Free will is what makes us culpable for what we do, both good and bad. Without free will, why do we need a savior? Why did Jesus need to go to the cross? Why do we need sacraments? Why do we need faith? Without free will we’re not guilty of anything we do that is bad nor are we rewarded for anything we do that is good.
Here’s how the CCC handles free will
http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=free+will&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
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Scowler
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Your whole post is based upon the assumption that for a long time there were some “bad” events, and then all of a sudden God would start to interfere, and because of that we would “have to” accept this benevolent deity. Not true. If there were NO negative events at all, ever, then it would be the natural state of affairs, no one would even “wonder” why are there no bad things? No one could even imagine the existence of hurricanes on a planet where there is eternal good weather. No one would wonder why there are no murders, if the concept of murder would not even enter the minds of anyone.
As for the idea of “blessed is he who believes without seeing” it is the worst kind of cop-out. By the way, even if we all had irrefutable evidence that God exist, we would STILL be free not to worship him.
And that is what God - allegedly - wants, to be glorified and worshipped.And how much better it would be! Without illness there would be no recovery - and who prefers to be ill, just so they can be healed? If there would be a benevolent God, he would create everyone directly into heaven. Who needs this “miserable vale of tears”?
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steve-b
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It would be nice if things were a breeze.KatyCatholic:
Your whole post is based upon the assumption that for a long time there were some “bad” events, and then all of a sudden God would start to interfere, and because of that we would “have to” accept this benevolent deity. Not true. If there were NO negative events at all, ever, then it would be the natural state of affairs, no one would even “wonder” why are there no bad things? No one could even imagine the existence of hurricanes on a planet where there is eternal good weather. No one would wonder why there are no murders, if the concept of murder would not even enter the minds of anyone.
As for the idea of “blessed is he who believes without seeing” it is the worst kind of cop-out. By the way, even if we all had irrefutable evidence that God exist, we would STILL be free not to worship him.
And how much better it would be! Without illness there would be no recovery - and who prefers to be ill, just so they can be healed? If there would be a benevolent God, he would create everyone directly into heaven. Who needs this “miserable vale of tears”?
Unfortunately, they’re not. Thus the test.
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Scowler
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Things are what they are because God willed them or allowed them. There would be nothing impossible to bypass this existence and create everyone into heaven. And only an idiot would conduct tests if he already knows the result.
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steve-b
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Truesteve-b:
Things are what they are because God willed them or allowed them. There would be nothing impossible to bypass this existence and create everyone into heaven.
On the contrary
Just because God knows in advance the outcome of a test, does it make the test useless. The test is for the benefit of the ones taking the test, Not for the teacher’s benefit.
The ones who pass the test, THEY benefit.
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Scowler
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I will use the teacher - student analogy for the sake of simplicity of the language to be used since we are talking about “tests”. Your analysis would be applicable only in an ongoing sequence of tests, where the student can learn from his mistakes and can benefit from the corrections provided by the teacher. This is NOT what happens in this case. There is ONE test, where the “teacher” already knows the outcome, and administers the final grades (or verdict). The student cannot learn from the process. It is ONE strike and you are out (or in, as the case may be).
It would be simpler to create the “passing” students directly into heaven, and create the “failing” ones directly into hell. There is no reason to have either ones to be created into this existence. Of course only a cruel “teacher” would create those who will be known to fail the one and only final test. They cannot benefit from the process.
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steve-b
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Life on this side of eternity, is an ongoing test. It is the test. No one is forced to pass or fail the ongoing test (s).steve-b:
I will use the teacher - student analogy for the sake of simplicity of the language to be used since we are talking about “tests”. Your analysis would be applicable only in an ongoing sequence of tests, where the student can learn from his mistakes and can benefit from the corrections provided by the teacher. This is NOT what happens in this case. There is ONE test, where the “teacher” already knows the outcome, and administers the final grades (or verdict). The student cannot learn from the process. It is ONE strike and you are out (or in, as the case may be).
It would be simpler to create the “passing” students directly into heaven, and create the “failing” ones directly into hell. There is no reason to have either ones to be created into this existence. Of course only a cruel “teacher” would create those who will be known to fail the one and only final test. They cannot benefit from the process.
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Catholicos
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For the same reason that Christ would not have died for all our sins had he kept Judas from betraying him, or the disciples from protecting him before he was condemned.
Not only did Christ know what Judas was going to do, Judas knew also . Yet, Judas freely chose to betray the Lord, even though he realized he wasn’t the only one that knew about his plot. Earth wasn’t ever meant to be heaven, that’s why the good must endure its evils. Do Gods will by using the freedom he gave you, and the promise of a place with no evils and no tears will be your reward.
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Eric_Hyom
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Whatever we do in this life, God can put right in a greater good life after death. Hitler might be responsible for the Holocaust, but God can restore the lives of six million people.
We should be learning from the Holocaust and all past wars, and never repeat them again. But the only thing we seem to learn is how to kill more efficiently.
We should be learning from the Holocaust and all past wars, and never repeat them again. But the only thing we seem to learn is how to kill more efficiently.
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Gorgias
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Because then it wouldn’t be free will.
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Scowler
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As if “unbridled free will” would be something “precious” and sacrosanct. Some freedom is desirable, but unlimited freedom would be a nightmare. Fortunately our freedom is already limited. Why would it be a problem to limit it a little more? Leave alone the “mortal sin” of blasphemy toward the holy spirit, so not everyone would be allowed into heaven.Because then it wouldn’t be free will.
After all one of the delights for the “saved” is to see the righteous suffering of the ones in hell - according to St. Augustine. What could be better than a healthy dollop of Schadenfreude?
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PJM
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BECAUSE IN AN ABSOLUTE MORAL SENSE GOD CAN’T: WHY IS THIS
God can be described as : ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED so the we ask are being "fair and just : good things. Absolutely YES
So then we KNOW God HAS to be both Fair and Just.
Gen. 1: 26-27 teaches us that GOD freely choose to make humanity in His very Image
Jn. 4: 23-24 teaches us that God is a “SPIRIT” so how do we reconcile these 2 seemingly contradictory teachings? humanity is physical & mortal; God is SPIRIT & immortal
In the entire Universe only ine thing is Rational: HUMANITY
To be rational requires a Mind, a intellect and a Freewill; each of which is a Spiritual Reality & immortal just like our GOD.
At the instant of birth [which too is GOD controlled], God Gifts every HUMAN Soul with this Spiritual “other self”. It is this “Other Self” that will meet God for the Judgment… We know that when we die our bodies return to dust Gen. 3:19; so what or HOW then do “we” get judged and spend the eternity of hell or heaven that our life choices selected fr us?
At the birth of every human [AN EXCLUSIVE] God gifts that Soul with a mind, intellect and freewill that are permanently attached to that soo forever… It is this SPIRITUAL “Other self” that will meet God fr the Judgment we deserve. and be sent to hell, purgatory, or heaven, until the END TIMES when our then GLORIFIED & PERFECTED BODIES will once again and for Eternity be rejoined to and with our Souls. [The final-judgment does not change what we have merited by OUR life choices.]
GOD IN ORDER TO BE GOD CANNOT GIVE THE GIFTS OF MIND, INTELLECT & FREEWILL AND LATER TAKE THEM BACK AND STILL BE OUR PERFECT AND GOOD DOD.
Thanks for asking, PrAY VERY MUCH,
God Bless you,
Patrick
God can be described as : ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED so the we ask are being "fair and just : good things. Absolutely YES
So then we KNOW God HAS to be both Fair and Just.
Gen. 1: 26-27 teaches us that GOD freely choose to make humanity in His very Image
Jn. 4: 23-24 teaches us that God is a “SPIRIT” so how do we reconcile these 2 seemingly contradictory teachings? humanity is physical & mortal; God is SPIRIT & immortal
In the entire Universe only ine thing is Rational: HUMANITY
To be rational requires a Mind, a intellect and a Freewill; each of which is a Spiritual Reality & immortal just like our GOD.
At the instant of birth [which too is GOD controlled], God Gifts every HUMAN Soul with this Spiritual “other self”. It is this “Other Self” that will meet God for the Judgment… We know that when we die our bodies return to dust Gen. 3:19; so what or HOW then do “we” get judged and spend the eternity of hell or heaven that our life choices selected fr us?
At the birth of every human [AN EXCLUSIVE] God gifts that Soul with a mind, intellect and freewill that are permanently attached to that soo forever… It is this SPIRITUAL “Other self” that will meet God fr the Judgment we deserve. and be sent to hell, purgatory, or heaven, until the END TIMES when our then GLORIFIED & PERFECTED BODIES will once again and for Eternity be rejoined to and with our Souls. [The final-judgment does not change what we have merited by OUR life choices.]
GOD IN ORDER TO BE GOD CANNOT GIVE THE GIFTS OF MIND, INTELLECT & FREEWILL AND LATER TAKE THEM BACK AND STILL BE OUR PERFECT AND GOOD DOD.
Thanks for asking, PrAY VERY MUCH,
God Bless you,
Patrick
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jcm2017
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God is love.
Love between persons only exists in freedom.
Therefore, God cannot be love at the same time as he denies the freedom of the beloved.
It’s very simple and reasonable, but evil clouds the senses and leads to un-reason. And so we become preoccupied with evil and it’s absurdity. And we want to blame God for that
Love between persons only exists in freedom.
Therefore, God cannot be love at the same time as he denies the freedom of the beloved.
It’s very simple and reasonable, but evil clouds the senses and leads to un-reason. And so we become preoccupied with evil and it’s absurdity. And we want to blame God for that
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Scowler
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So the parent who restricts the freedom of his child to play with a loaded gun is not a loving parent any more? I suggest that you guys (in general) would realize that freedom is not absolute. Some level of freedom is desirable, but not too much freedom.
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Gorgias
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Part of the problem of discussing free will is that people use the term to mean a variety of things. I’m guessing we’re using the terms differently.Gorgias:
As if “unbridled free will” would be something “precious” and sacrosanct.Because then it wouldn’t be free will.
By ‘free will’, I do not mean “freedom of action”, but I suspect you do. You seem to be talking about ‘freedom’, not ‘free will’. The two are distinct notions. Our ‘freedom’ is limited by many things: our means (I don’t have the wherewithal to take a month-long vacation to Europe) , our governing structures (who can impose punishment for certain behaviors), even our human nature (I can’t step off a cliff and fly). All of these are limitations on my freedom of action – but not of my free will! I can will to do things all I want… but my free will isn’t impinged by my ability to put them in action.
Again: there’s a big difference between “freedom of action” and “free will”.
You’re talking about the former here.
We already have “unabridged free will”. Abridge it, and you no longer have free will. There’s no such thing as “a little bit pregnant”, nor is there such a thing as “a little bit of free will.” It’s an ‘all or nothing’ proposition.
Actually, I believe that it’s Aquinas who makes this assertion – and you’re mischaracterizing it, at that! If memory serves, it’s explicitly not schadenfreude (delighting in the suffering of others), but rather delight in seeing God’s will fulfilled.After all one of the delights for the “saved” is to see the righteous suffering of the ones in hell - according to St. Augustine. What could be better than a healthy dollop of Schadenfreude?
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jcm2017
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Your example of freedom and free will are not the same thing.
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Scowler
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Yes, some people try to make a distinction between being free to “will” something, and being free to act on that will. If free will is only the “desire” to do something, even when the person is unable to act on it, then this “will” is only limited by the imagination of the person (but STILL limited, by the way
). But who cares? Who should worry about a poor sucker’s desire to perform something that he is unable to carry out? “Will” without the ability to act on it is just a “daydream”. The libertarian definition of “free will” rests of three components:- that there is something that the agent wishes to carry out.
- that there are at least two ways to achieve that goal.
- that the locus of decision is with agent.
Yes, you are correct, it was Aquinas - thanks for the correction. But as for the “mischaracterization”, it is merely your opinion. As a matter of fact any decent person would be abhorred to see such an extremely disproportional penalty. And nothing could be more disproportional than an unending, perpetual torture for a simple, finite deed.
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