Why doesn't Judaism want converts?

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My RCIA program was run pretty well, by a very faithful Deacon. I was Confirmed 8 years ago. A few of the people I was Confirmed with I’m pretty sure aren’t Catholic anymore. I think they stopped being Catholic within 2-3 years. But, they went to Mass for months while doing RCIA. And the teaching was pretty clear and thorough in the classes. So, in my opinion there’s not really a whole lot to be done on our side that would have changed anything.

Having been Confirmed a Catholic, they have an indellible mark on their souls. So, we can always pray for them to return.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Babochka isn’t new to Catholicism. East v. West is not a case of new converts (usually from Protestantism) wanting to change everything minutes after they’ve joined. It’s more a question of people being open to the theology and traditions of both lungs of the Church rather than the one lung they were raised or catechized in.
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No, she isn’t, but to make such a change (which is more my idea than hers, she just described what the East does) would be at least as drastic, as some of the changes that “newcomers” propose. And there is also the matter of the six Protestant ministers who were consultants (of sorts) during the formulation of the Novus Ordo Missae. I am not saying it was a bad thing to have those consultants — many traditionalists would — I am just stating the historical fact.

Incidentally, not suggesting that it’s not a true phenomenon, but what are some of the kinds of changes that “newcomers” suggest? I’m kind of hazy on this, the only thing that “jumps out at me” was the troubling example of Father David Trosch, a convert (I’m pretty sure) who became a priest and spoke approvingly of some extremely radical anti-abortion measures that I do not support. That’s not what I’m talking about, though. He wrote up these lengthy compendia of everything that he saw as “wrong” with Catholic moral theology, and dissected the Mass line-by-line, saying “I’d change this…” and “I’d reword this to say…”, and so on. Utterly maddening to read! He is no longer among us, requiescat in pace.
 
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Historically Judaism has always been ethnocentric. It is a fairly recent phenomenon for them to take converts.
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@Dan_Defender: There are many biblical instances of outsiders converting to Judaism.

God commands Abraham to circumcise every male member of his household.
Genesis 17: 12-14

12 Throughout the ages, every male among you, when he is eight days old, shall be circumcised, including houseborn slaves and those acquired with money from any foreigner who is not of your descendants.

13 Yes, both the houseborn slaves and those acquired with money must be circumcised. Thus my covenant will be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.

14 If a male is uncircumcised, that is, if the flesh of his foreskin has not been cut away, such a one will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.
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Ruth the Moabite followed her widowed mother-in-law to Israel. More amazingly, Ruth is an ancestor of David.
Ruth 1:16

But Ruth said, “Do not press me to go back and abandon you!

Wherever you go I will go,
wherever you lodge I will lodge.
Your people shall be my people
and your God, my God."
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Achior converts in the book of Judith.
Judith 14:10

Now Achior, seeing all that the God of Israel had done, believed firmly in God. He circumcised the flesh of his foreskin and he has been united with the house of Israel to the present day.
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There were rabbis who did not sign.
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@AlNg: Yes, I totally agree! And thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

My statement does not specifically address the Noahide laws.

Graven images, as you point out, are strictly forbidden. And strict monotheism rejects the possibility of the incarnation.

Despite that division, some liberal Modern Orthodox rabbis see Christianity as part of God’s plan. They want to work with us.

@HomeschoolDad
How so? I don’t doubt your description of this, but do you have any further online reading material I could take a look at? I’m not trying to be a “sources, please” martinet, I sincerely want to know. It’s always been my understanding that Judaism regards Christianity as one rabbi’s teachings that went, in their eyes, horribly, horribly wrong.
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You’re right that Jews think Christians are wrong to worship Jesus. I think now, some rabbis want to build common ground.



@HomeschoolDad

I added this link after my initial response. The extremely intolerant are still a factor.

 
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DaveBj said:
They were doing it in Jesus’ day, and they were serious about it. Jesus spoke of them “traversing land and sea to make one proselyte.” And Nicholas, one of the seven first deacons, was a convert to Judaism, a “proselyte from Antioch”.
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This is debatable. Not every ‘proselyte’ was a full convert back then. Some only followed certain customs and remained uncircumcised. In any event, the exception does not prove the rule.
 
njlisa said:
Despite that division, some liberal Modern Orthodox rabbis see Christianity as part of God’s plan. They want to work with us.
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How so? I don’t doubt your description of this, but do you have any further online reading material I could take a look at? I’m not trying to be a “sources, please” martinet, I sincerely want to know. It’s always been my understanding that Judaism regards Christianity as one rabbi’s teachings that went, in their eyes, horribly, horribly wrong.
 
njlisa said:
Despite that division, some liberal Modern Orthodox rabbis see Christianity as part of God’s plan. They want to work with us.

@HomeschoolDad
How so? I don’t doubt your description of this, but do you have any further online reading material I could take a look at? I’m not trying to be a “sources, please” martinet, I sincerely want to know. It’s always been my understanding that Judaism regards Christianity as one rabbi’s teachings that went, in their eyes, horribly, horribly wrong.
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Thanks for the material. I read it last night, and it was very educational.
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njlisa said:
You’re right that Jews think Christians are wrong to worship Jesus. I think now, some rabbis want to build common ground.
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The thing is that Jesus often sounds like what might be described as a typical rowing Pharisee of his School of Hillel v’s School of Shammai times, with quite normal preoccupations.

I’ve often mentioned it here, myself, but have been left with the feeling of “So what?” In other words, “what common ground?”

Other than both sides acknowledging that Jesus was a Jew of his times, we’re left with the literary criticism exercise (from a Jewish perspective) of discerning just where and why the story veers off into something quite different.

And it’s quite interesting, I have to say, but rather academic.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I almost wish that Catholicism discouraged converts in the same manner. It seems like a lot of people convert to Catholicism and then start questioning their choice, in some cases almost immediately.
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I have pondered this comment, and if I were a priest, I really do not think I could, in good conscience, ever “discourage” a convert, especially if they’d never been baptized. In the objective order, salvation rests upon it. I would probe to see how much their decision might be colored by such things as desire to please a prospective spouse, getting subsidized parishioner school tuition for their children, things like that. However, I do recognize that people have mixed motives for doing all sorts of things, and in some cases, that is true of conversion as well. “God will know his own”.
 
@Kaninchen

This evidence is purely anecdotal.
My best friend is Modern Orthodox Jewish. Three or four years ago, she invited me to study the Torah with her.

So every Sunday, we spend an hour discussing that week’s Torah portion.

I was received into the Catholic Church 31 years ago at age 29. However, I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church. My childhood religious education exclusively focused on memorizing Bible verses and learning Bible stories from the Old and New testaments. And the sacraments help me understand the Temple sacrifices.

What I learn with her has given me a much deeper understanding into Christianity. And my childhood Bible study helps us meet halfway.

I don’t push a Christian agenda. Although we mostly focus on the Jewish position, I do point Christian beliefs that come directly from the Torah.

She’s comfortable with that. She even quoted a verse from one of Paul’s letters a couple of weeks ago.

We’ve known each other since the mid-Nineties. So we have a strong level of trust.
 
@Juvenal

Chabad/Lubavitch is a Hasidic sect that is not part of the Orthodox mainstream. They revere their late rebbe, Menachem Schneerson, whom they consider to be the Messiah.

People pray at Schneerson’s grave (ohel) in Queens, N.Y. And some believe he is the mediator of all miracles. All are welcome to visit the ohel.

Among all Hasidim, a rebbe has ultimate authority over the community. And visiting the grave of a deceased rebbe is a universal practice.

https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/60675/jewish/Wisdom-Teachings.htm

https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/3364017/jewish/What-to-Expect-at-the-Ohel.htm

@Tis_Bearself
I almost wish that Catholicism discouraged converts in the same manner. It seems like a lot of people convert to Catholicism and then start questioning their choice, in some cases almost immediately. I know that the Church wants to be a big tent and try to get everybody in communion with the Church to the extent they can, but it is frustrating to me sometimes to watch people go through a whole long process of RCIA and conversion and then start to complain and talk about quitting the Church. I wish I could tell them “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out” but that’s not an appropriate attitude for a Catholic.
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In a way, RCIA is a vetting process. I spent 9 months in the program. I was expected to show up at every class and other events. I was assigned a sponsor, who was supposed to monitor my spiritual process. (She didn’t.)

Most of the class was excited and engaged. Some people misunderstood or opposed some of the principles. But we hashed it out in class.

A few of us (myself included) had no ties to Catholicism. We just walked in off the street and wanted to be Catholic.
 
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From what I have heard about RCIA in general, you would have to want to be Catholic really badly to patiently sit through it for weeks 🙂

I’m sure there are exceptions.
 
BlueKumul said:
The Chasidic Jews might say worshipping Jesus is idolatry, but what they do at the famous rabbi graves?
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Just as an aside worth noting, and not directly answering your question… not all Jews including some Hasidim rabbi’s believe Christians are committing idolatry, but rather severely misunderstand the nature of God.

On the other hand, there are some strong stances in Hasidism against the Lubavitcher for their position on the Rebbe, just as you suggest. Several rabbis have warned about the risk of them splintering into a separate religion entirely (often drawing a parallel to the early stages of Christianity).
 
I’ve learned more about Judaism in this discussion than anywhere else.
 
njlisa said:
This evidence is purely anecdotal.
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More human and less scripted than the experience of debate though.
njlisa said:
I don’t push a Christian agenda.
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That’s the problem with online discussion - just when things are getting interesting, somebody turns up to proselytise.
njlisa said:
She even quoted a verse from one of Paul’s letters a couple of weeks ago.
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I’m addicted to the KJV’s “glass darkly.”

If I didn’t find it all interesting, I wouldn’t have been here for nearly 16 years. 😃
 
From what I have heard about RCIA in general, you would have to want to be Catholic really badly to patiently sit through it for weeks 🙂

I’m sure there are exceptions.
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@Tis_Bearself

I was elated to do it. My background is Southern Baptist. I had no Catholic friends or family back in Oklahoma.

Soon after I arrived in New Jersey in late August 1989, I got a flyer on my door from the local parish about the RCIA program. I immediately called the number on the flyer. And three minutes later, the director came back.

The director, Cathy, bubbled over with the Spirit. Never have I seen such enthusiasm for the faith.

Going into the church was like marrying the sweetheart I had yearned for all my life.

I was received into the church in 1990, at age 29. It really like coming home.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had many bumps along the way. But the Blessed Mother is always my beacon. Do what he says.

After I read “Story of a Soul,” St. Thérèse keeps me on track as well. Just as I’m about to write a snarky message, I say, “Thérèse, would you send this email?” And she always says no. I like to think she adds a smile and a wink.
 
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