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Maxirad
Guest
Do you know about Canon 915, Prodigal1984?
Why doesn't murder and violent rape have automatic excommunication?
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No. The penalty is attached because it’s the intentional taking of an unborn human life, the most helpless and innocent form of human life, even more helpless than an elderly person on his deathbed.
This is why the penalty is attached, not because it’s murder, but because it’s the most heinous form of murder.
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Benjinho
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This is almost never true. Murder always requires intent in legal settings, otherwise it’s manslaughter.Benjinho:
Clarity. Not all killing is murder and what is legally called murder is not always intended (such as felony murder - unintended killings done while intentionally committing another serious felony). There has to be a differentiation
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Benjinho
Guest
I would disagree with one murder being considered more heinous than another. Is it really more heinous than murder of a toddler, a newborn, or a mentally handicapped adult? No. Is a newborn or toddler more able to defend itself than an unborn child? Not really. Might be even more vulnerable because they aren’t inside an adult at all times.Benjinho:
No. The penalty is attached because it’s the intentional taking of an unborn human life, the most helpless and innocent form of human life, even more helpless than an elderly person on his deathbed.
This is why the penalty is attached, not because it’s murder, but because it’s the most heinous form of murder.
I’m more in the agreement that it has excommunication because it’s the only type of murder legal and widely accepted in Western societies.
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Vico
Guest
Almost never then means an estimated 400 and 800 sentences being served for felony murder in the state of California reported on in 2018.Vico:
This is almost never true. Murder always requires intent in legal settings, otherwise it’s manslaughter.Benjinho:
Clarity. Not all killing is murder and what is legally called murder is not always intended (such as felony murder - unintended killings done while intentionally committing another serious felony). There has to be a differentiation
If He Didn’t Kill Anyone, Why Is It Murder? (Published 2018)
Only in America, getaway drivers and lookouts can face the same penalty for a death as the actual killer. California is having second thoughts.
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Babaganoush
Guest
That is all beside the point. Procuring an abortion results in automatic excommunication - or at least used to - regardless of whether they admit to it or anyone knows about it. The excommunication comes with the act.
Regarding rape and murder, I don’t know if they aren’t excommunicated.
Regarding rape and murder, I don’t know if they aren’t excommunicated.
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Babaganoush
Guest
Actually the excommunication from abortion can be mended by confessing to your priest. It used to be the case that you had to go to the bishop, but that is no longer the case.
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Prodigal1984
Guest
Anyone who is excommunicated is supposed to confess and be reconciled.
It isn’t as though when someone is excommunicated they are damned or something. It is done in hope the person will amend their beliefs and reconcile.
It isn’t as though when someone is excommunicated they are damned or something. It is done in hope the person will amend their beliefs and reconcile.
Absolutely. Morally, the murder of a child is more serious than the murder of an adult, and the murder of an unborn infant is more heinous than the murder of a toddler. Why? Because a toddler can theoretically run or scream. And the murder of a toddler is more heinous than the murder of an adult because of the relative inability to defend himself.porthos11:
I would disagree with one murder being considered more heinous than another. Is it really more heinous than murder of a toddler, a newborn, or a mentally handicapped adult?Benjinho:
No. The penalty is attached because it’s the intentional taking of an unborn human life, the most helpless and innocent form of human life, even more helpless than an elderly person on his deathbed.
This is why the penalty is attached, not because it’s murder, but because it’s the most heinous form of murder.
The nature of the victim changes the species of the sin. If you murder a child, that is a sufficiently aggravating that this has to be mentioned in confession. Same thing if you participate in euthanasia. And same thing if you participate in an abortion. These factors change the nature of the sin sufficiently that “murder” will not simply cover it.
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CRV
Guest
Resources for Understanding and Applying Canon 915 by Dr Edward Peters J. C. D., J. C. L., J. D.,
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Londoner
Guest
All rape is violent. Rape is, by definition, a form of assault. It does not require an additional assault to make it violent. Rape that is committed through psychological coercion or manipulation or taking advantage of the victim’s youth is a form of violence.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I apologize for making such a speech to you when someone else already explained. This same topic has come up on several threads lately and I became more impatient than I should. Sorry about that.
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PetraG
Guest
Obviously, someone who commits a mortal sin such as a murder or rape cannot avail themselves of the sacraments until they have repented, confessed, and received absolution. Excommunication is not a sign that a mortal sin–which excludes the sinner from the sacraments–is the worst mortal sin possible. In stead, it is usually reserved for offenses which are committed in secret or are committed against or by the clergy or against the sacraments. It is a legal matter, not a comment on the gravity of a grave sin.
Abortion involves taking the life of a person that others might not even know existed. That is why it is a special case. Attempting the ordination of a woman or violating the seal of confession or descrating the Eucharist are offenses against the integrity of the sacraments.
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Wife.of.Gabriel
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There is excommunication… anyone aware of being in mortal sin is to refrain from receiving The Sacrament of Holy Communion until they’ve repented and have received the Sacrament of Confession. It’s self-imposed excommunication, the Eucharistic Minister (priest, deacon or extraordinary) doesn’t necessarily know the unrepentant sins of the communicant. It’s part of our responsibility as Confirmed Catholics to only present ourselves for the Sacrament of we’re free from mortal sin.
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acanonlawyer
Guest
I admit that I haven’t read all the posts. The basic reason is that civil law forbids rape and murder (of those who are born…excepting euthanasia…). One could predict that euthanasia may well merit mention in a future revision of canon law.
But, as it is, the civil law situation in 1983 made it seem that a so-called “automatic” penalty for these crimes was not needed. Civil law would impose a sufficient penalty.
Dan
But, as it is, the civil law situation in 1983 made it seem that a so-called “automatic” penalty for these crimes was not needed. Civil law would impose a sufficient penalty.
Dan
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Shasta-Rose
Guest
And what about the murder of an older person who can’t get up and run?
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mythbuster1
Guest
Part of it is because the Church must condemn all the more fiercely those sins which are condoned by the governing authorities. The other factor is that abortion deprives the victim of the opportunity to be baptized, whereas the born person had the opportunity to be baptized earlier.
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