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dzheremi
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Why is it assumed in the OP that Eastern Orthodoxy is just like the Roman Catholic Church, minus some problems? Orthodoxy is not RCism minus anymore than RCism is Orthodoxy plus.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
No, we do not believe in Atonement. Here is what I think a good explanation of it: orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A.php?c=Salvation-The%20Atonement
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Dakota_Roberts
Guest
A lot of Protestants believe that if you believe in Jesus you will be saved no matter what, no need to ask God for forgiveness. Much of Protestantism is quite alien to Catholicism.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I think people assume just because of a similar Apostolic origin, Orthodox are just Roman Catholics in the same exact way except for a different Liturgy, our refusal to accept the Filioque, and are rebels for denying the Pope’s authority over us. Otherwise, everything else is the same.
But weren’t we that same way before we became Orthodox?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Not quite. Of course there are differences, otherwise you won’t be separated. But Protestantism was born out of Roman Catholic theology. No matter how skewed their beliefs are, it is Roman Catholic beliefs that they skewed in the first place. Orthodox theology is completely different from Roman Catholicism even before the Great Schism.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
How come? Lutherans and Anglicans believe in the Eucharist. I know that the Catholic Church deny that they have a valid Eucharist, but from their perspective their Eucharist is real.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
This is a very simplistic way to look at it that doesn’t even give justice to the truth of the issues.
The schism between East and West came about because the Churches were theologically miles apart to begin with. St. Augustine taught the concept of Original Sin in the 4th century and it took root in the West but not in the East. So while East and West never argued about it for centuries, the West started developing their theology around Original Sin while the East developed its theology without it. So the very basic understanding of our faith, The Fall, is already different. The Fall is the cornerstone, the foundation of our entire theological understanding of salvation. If the Fall is understood differently, then salvation is understood differently. And it is.
When the theological questions started coming up, both sides just realized that we are so theologically far apart that we are technically not the same faith.
Martin Luther did not just merely revolt. There was a problem in the Church and he tried to come up with a reason for it and how to fix it. Well, actually he didn’t fix it. He acknowledged the fact that the clergy of his time became corrupt, so the solution was to remove the clergy instead of fixing it. But the changes he introduced to solve that problem still revolved around Western theology.
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dzheremi
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Yeah, but I don’t think anyone became Orthodox/Catholic. (some stopped being either, but that’s another story). As attested to in the prayers of the Church from way before either major schism (at least in the Coptic tradition, though I know that others also affirm this), the Church of God is Catholic and Orthodox (this is what we say in every Coptic liturgy), as well as being apostolic, of course.
I know you know that already, but for others…well, it has to add some perspective on this whole question. Why doesn’t Protestantism look like Orthodoxy? Hmm…well, why doesn’t Catholicism? Because the differences between Orthodoxy and Protestantism are similar, only to a greater degree, to those between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. And at one time all churches, East and West, “looked” like each other in that way (a bad verb to use, “looked”, since it’s never been about uniformity in externals).
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ConstantineTG
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I wasn’t able to articulate my point exactly and people here didn’t get what I said. And you are right, it isn’t about the externals and I wasn’t talking about the externals. The similarity of Protestantism to Catholicism is about theology, not Sunday Liturgy. In fact, just here around CAF you’ll see RCs argue about theology quoting the CCC or Vatican Documents the same way Protestants would quote the Bible. The Protestant would say, “this is the Bible, it is authoritative.” The RC would say, “this is the Pope, he is authoritative.” Looks very similar to me.
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Dakota_Roberts
Guest
They aren’t completely different, we just use different terminology.
Luther rejected transubstantiation and every Anglican monarch after Henry VIII has rejected transubstantiation (Queen Elizabeth I made it illegal to hold office while believing it).
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ConstantineTG
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No, they are completely different. As a Roman Catholic of 33 years who has investigated Orthodoxy and has converted into Orthodoxy, I an conclusively say with a clear conscience, it is different. It is not even terminology. Read back to a previous post of mine on this thread there I posted a link about atonement.
We reject transubstantiation as well. It is a neo-platonic concept that has no place in Christian belief.
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Aaron780
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Having grown up around protestants, then seeing the light and coming back to the one true church, for me a protestant church feels like a very watered down version of Catholicism, just picking out the parts that suit them kind of thing. They are nothing a like at all imo, I wish they would see the light also…
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ConstantineTG
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Many Protestants are better off than most Catholics or even Orthodox. Let us not be quick to judge.
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Trebor135
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Do you have a link about this issue too?
I’m still a catechumen and am not really clear on the differences in the Catholic and Orthodox views on the real presence.
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LegoGE1947
Guest
Because it AIN’T!
(Remember the old addage “If it quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, then it’s a duck!”)
Protestantism doesn’t “quack or waddle” like Catholicism so it is more like a vulture than anything.
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Lasting_faith
Guest
Why should they?
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snarflemike
Guest
Well, if we look at the few issues that the first Protestants claimed they had with the Catholic Church, and remove those issues one way or the other, we should have something that looks like either Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism (as I said in my OP). Protestantism should have valid apostolic orders, for example, and most if not all of those things that both Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism have in common.
But Protestantism as a whole has almost none of those things which the two Churches have in common. So is the Protestant story about why the Reformation came about false? Where there other reasons for the revolt than those stated? Because the Protestantism that exists in reality doesn’t seem to be anything like the Protestantism that should have resulted in simply addressing those issues they claim to have had with the 16th century Catholic Church.
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snarflemike
Guest
I can also frame the question this way. According to the first Reformers, their goal was to go back to being more true to the Ancient Faith than was the Catholic Church of the day. (that’s why I mentioned the Eastern Orthodox, who believe they are exactly that). So if you claim you are going back to the Ancient Faith, why does the result not look ANYTHING like either reformed Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy?
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ConstantineTG
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I don’t have one that discusses it in-depth. I’ve come across a number of books and podcasts on AFR where it is discussed briefly and explained a bit, but I haven’t come across an article or blog post where it is the prime topic and discussed in depth.Do you have a link about this issue too?
The main rejection is that transubstantiation is an Aristotelian (I earlier said Plato, I was wrong) philosophical concept. The biggest objection is that Trent made Transubstantiation dogma (if anyone does not believe in transubstantiation, let him be anathema). It boxes in the mystery of the Eucharist which is against the Faith of our Fathers. Fr. Alexander Schmemann also has criticized the false dichotomy created between “symbol” and “real” which ultimately led to the dogmatization of Transubstantiation.
First, at the time of the Reformation, Orthodoxy was rather far removed from Central Europe. Ther was little contact. The reformers viewed themselves as Catholic. While contact between the reformers and Orthodoxy did come, it wasn’t well received, not surprisingly.
Today, however, there seems a tendancy of Lutheran clergy that do leave to go east. Jaroslav Pelikan is an example of a Lutheran scholar becoming Orthodox.
Honestly, there is a lot in Orthodoxy that intrigues.
Jon
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