Why doesn't RCIA teach about Eastern Catholicism?

[CopticChristian]

The eastern Catholics are the folks to keep your guard up, its a loose cannon so to speak.

There is plenty good here with the RC.

What is it you need to keep your guard up about and what do you consider being a loose cannon. Enumerate.

I believe that you should keep your guard up about…
They are loose cannons concerning…
Help me understand.

 

[5Loaves]

The title of this thread should be why does RCIA not teach Catholicism PERIOD. LOL.

S’Nami Boh!

As a catechist in a Latin parish trained for three years with a cohort also mainly training to become master catechists in the diocese and having gone to a number of national and regional workshops on aspects of the catecheumenate and mystagogy.I know a number of great catechists and we do teach seriously and systematically about Catholicism.

I’ve been rather shocked to discover that it’s quite normal now for people to come into Inquiry having grown up in the US and have zero literacy about sacred Scripture. When I was growing up in the 50s everyone would have known who Adam & Eve were, Moses, Jonah, Noah, the prodigal son, not to mention Christ and His disciples, etc. they probably knew the basics of a number of stories and they knew perhaps some psalms, many of the 10 Commandments, etc. They might not have a real understanding of these but they did know something of God’s action in salvation history, maybe thanks to Cecil B. DeMille. Now, we are stopping throughout any given weekly RCIA session, which sessions are based on the liturgical year, anchored on Sacred Scripture and the CCC, to need to give information on the most basic of Christian literacy so that whatever we’ve just read will make sense.

Thankfully our RICA follows the US Bishops National Statutes that persons be in the catecheumenate, ie have gone through the Rite of Acceptance into the Order of Catechumens, for at minimum one full Liturgical year before the Celebration of the Sacraments of Initiation at the Easter Vigil. In a year + many Catholic teachings will naturally come up a number of times within the context of the particular intended teaching for that session. Many parishes still do not follow the US Bishops National Statutes and try to prepare people beginning in the fall and concluding with the first Pascha that comes along. This can be a very short period of the catecheumenate.

 

[Elijahmaria]

S’Nami Boh!

As a catechist in a Latin parish trained for three years with a cohort also mainly training to become master catechists in the diocese and having gone to a number of national and regional workshops on aspects of the catecheumenate and mystagogy.I know a number of great catechists and we do teach seriously and systematically about Catholicism.

I’ve been rather shocked to discover that it’s quite normal now for people to come into Inquiry having grown up in the US and have zero literacy about sacred Scripture. When I was growing up in the 50s everyone would have known who Adam & Eve were, Moses, Jonah, Noah, the prodigal son, not to mention Christ and His disciples, etc. they probably knew the basics of a number of stories and they knew perhaps some psalms, many of the 10 Commandments, etc. They might not have a real understanding of these but they did know something of God’s action in salvation history, maybe thanks to Cecil B. DeMille. Now, we are stopping throughout any given weekly RCIA session, which sessions are based on the liturgical year, anchored on Sacred Scripture and the CCC, to need to give information on the most basic of Christian literacy so that whatever we’ve just read will make sense.

Thankfully our RICA follows the US Bishops National Statutes that persons be in the catecheumenate, ie have gone through the Rite of Acceptance into the Order of Catechumens, for at minimum one full Liturgical year before the Celebration of the Sacraments of Initiation at the Easter Vigil. In a year + many Catholic teachings will naturally come up a number of times within the context of the particular intended teaching for that session. Many parishes still do not follow the US Bishops National Statutes and try to prepare people beginning in the fall and concluding with the first Pascha that comes along. This can be a very short period of the catecheumenate.

20 years ago people were staying with RCIA catechesis for as many as three years in some cases.

People with no background whatsoever were catechized in Scripture outside of RCIA…

But there was no time restriction and I’ve had people come up to me 20 minutes before the lighting of First Light and say “I’ve searched my heart and I am not ready.”…and they start again the following Sunday with more catechism classes and more questions.

Very often those who did enter the Church at Easter went through more catechesis during the following year.

We encouraged forming small guided groups for bible study or extended doctrinal study…and from those dedicated groups came the next crop of catechists for RCIA in years to come.

There should never be any such thing as “not enough time”…

There is however, I believe, such a thing as over-programming and under-educating of catechists.

 

[paglione]

Reply to Rolltide (December 26, 2011)
I agree with you that most Latin rite Catholics are not aware or barely aware of the Eastern Catholic Churches. In my opinion the most obvious reason is that they were never taught that the Universal Catholic Church is composed mostly Latin rite Catholics but there are dozens of Eastern Rite Catholic Churches which are in communion with the Roman Pope.
Furthermore, I believe that present day Roman Catholics think that their Church is the ONE TRUE CHURCH and other Christian Churches are either Orthodox or Protestant and not in communion with the Roman Church.
I have been trying without any success to get the Archbishop of my Archdiocese as well as the pastor of my parish to talk from the pulpit about OUR SISTER CHURCHES who are ONE WITH US in the Holy Catholic Church. I have also requested that the faithful in p my Latin rite church pray during the Mass petitions for the reuniting of ALL CHRISTIANITY including Catholic and Orthodox. I have also asked for a biritual Catholic priest to come to our church to speak about the Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Catholic rite and other Eastern Catholic rites. BUT SO FAR THERE HAS BEEN NO RESPONSE AND NO INTEREST.
An important point on this subject is: HOW CAN THERE EVER BE UNITY BETWEEN ORTHODOX CHURCHES AND CATHOLIC CHURCH WHEN THE CATHOLIC LAITY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THEIR CATHOLIC COUNTERPARTS IN THE EASTERN CHURCHES?
Unity of the Christian Churches would have to be a miracle performed by the Holy Spirit. I see no other way.
Peter D. Aglione, Hawthorne, NY
Petradom737@aol.com

 

[5Loaves]

20 years ago people were staying with RCIA catechesis for as many as three years in some cases.

People with no background whatsoever were catechized in Scripture outside of RCIA…

But there was no time restriction and I’ve had people come up to me 20 minutes before the lighting of First Light and say “I’ve searched my heart and I am not ready.”…and they start again the following Sunday with more catechism classes and more questions.

Very often those who did enter the Church at Easter went through more catechesis during the following year.

We encouraged forming small guided groups for bible study or extended doctrinal study…and from those dedicated groups came the next crop of catechists for RCIA in years to come.

There should never be any such thing as “not enough time”…

There is however, I believe, such a thing as over-programming and under-educating of catechists.

I’m unclear do you have “RCIA” in your Byzantine parish? Or have lighting of the First Light in a Latin Parish? Or are you talking about the situation in some Latin and in other Byzantine parishes?

OP was referring to RCIA which I thought was only in the Latin Church, and my reply as I made clear only refers to the Latin Church, and since I was talking about the catecheumenate then that is only talking about those who had never been Baptized. We find them totally dedicated to being present for Sunday “Breaking open the Word” and mid week extended catechesis until Easter. Their structured period as neophytes continues through mystagogy which ends at Pentecost but could go much longer were anyone still around. I learned the phrase “after the Chrism dries” from both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox referring to when people begin to disappear once they’ve had the Sacraments/ Holy Mysteries of Initation.

People with no background whatsoever were catechized in Scripture outside of RCIA…

This isn’t really the place to go further into catechesis in the Latin Church, but RCIA is based on “breaking open the Word” from the Sunday scripture readings.

A Baptized Christian asking for reception in the Latin Church is not in the catechumenate and is catechized differently … although they may also turn out to be quite illiterate about Christianity, but many are very well catechized when they approach us and spend a short time learning specific teachings of the Church before being received into the Church any Sunday, or any weekday, Mass.

P.S. When I was received into the Church (Latin) Church 23 years ago I was part of a group which honestly I have no idea whether there were also the unbaptized with us or not. I don’t know what we did in the classes but I really knew nothing about what the Church teaches a few months later when I was received into the Church in a weekday Mass. There was no follow up once I came into the Church. I made my first confession years later, and didn’t know there was a “Sunday Obligation” until I asked to join the RCIA in the parish where I am now, when I realized I didn’t know anything about the Church I’d been received in to. Granted I came into the Latin Church in a Cathedral parish that was considered very “progressive”. I was a “Mass bread baker” there, making bread (with yeast and honey and salt) for Eucharist. I had no idea that was illicit.

 

[Kielbasi]

What I do not understand here is if there are differences between the Catholic rites in how truths are taught, why is this not taught to people in RCIA? Even better would be to have a simple test people could take and then they could find which one fits them the best. I understand if you are born into something, you are born into it. However for those of us who are not, who want to convert, it is a mess that seems to make no sense. It is almost like the Latin rite is hiding this information from us. Something about this whole thing seems to smell very badly to me…

Pax

When I was in school, many a moon ago, Eastern Catholicism was certainly acknowledged and talked about. After all, Pittsburgh does have proportionally a pretty large number of Ukrainian and Rusyns people who came here in the early 20th century to work in the mills.

But we did learn what we needed to about it, as the Greek Catholics were our friends and neighbors.

Florida didn’t really attract as many immigrants from eastern Europe, I can see why they would downplay something you were really likely to see.

 

[Elijahmaria]

I’m unclear do you have “RCIA” in your Byzantine parish? Or have lighting of the First Light in a Latin Parish? Or are you talking about the situation in some Latin and in other Byzantine parishes?

I was baptized in the Roman rite so I was recounting some of my experiences there prior to transferring into an eastern Catholic Church. Sorry that was not clear…

 

[ByzCathCantor]

BTW - while searching for something entirely unrelated, I stumbled upon the website of the Blessed Mother Catholic Church in Owensboro, KY, which included a full webpage on their RCIA program. The curriculum and program were very well outlined and explained - indeed a labor of God’s love!

blessedmotherchurch.com/rcia.php

As impressive as it was, I saw no overt mention of catechesis on the various rites and sui juris churches within the Catholic communion. I do hope as I’ve mentioned in prior posts that this would be covered at least in summary at some point in the RCIA program, but at the very least out of necessity if a potential catechumen is identified as belonging to another canonical rite at the onset.

May the Lord bless their work and this ministry!

 

[5Loaves]

As impressive as it was, I saw no overt mention of catechesis on the various rites and sui juris churches within the Catholic communion. I do hope as I’ve mentioned in prior posts that this would be covered at least in summary at some point in the RCIA program, but at the very least out of necessity** if a potential catechumen is identified as belonging to another canonical rite **at the onset.

Only the unbaptized become catechumens so normally this wouldn’t be an issue, tho you could get an older child who has never been baptized and it’s found the parents are Orthodox or EC. We have paper work to be completed by potential catecheumens and potential candidates, and all those in charge of RCIA should have similar paperwork, which covers the parents background, any baptisms, and any potential irregular marriages which needs to be completed and any issues resolved before they ever go through the Rite of Acceptance Into the Order of Catechumens (Rite of Welcoming for candidates who do **not ** enter the Catechumenate). Once these unbaptized thus enter the Catechumenate there is no reversing. They can choose to not complete the process and never be baptized, but once they become catechumens they are a part of the Church in a unique way and have rights as catechumens to marriage and burial in the Catholic Church.

May the Lord bless their work and this ministry!

Thank you. We* need* your prayers. I’m honored to do the work and it can be a challenge, tho so rewarding. We mostly get truly wonderful people seeking to be become Catholic through Baptism and for Christians through reception into full communion.

 

[5Loaves]

We have coming up this next week Theophany in the Eastern Church and Epiphany in the Latin Church. They are both feasts of the manifestation/appearance of God but in the West there is more emphasis on the Magi encountering Christ, and Him being revealed to the pagan world though them, in the East the Holy Trinity is revealed in the Baptism of our Lord in the Jordon by the Forerunner John, to really badly summarize. Anyway, this is a time when I bring up the differences in how we celebrate East and West on that Feastday. Such times to me are just natural times to bring in the fact of the Eastern Catholic Churches. It’s not a teaching on the ECCs* per se* but it raises the topic, and by sharing some festal troparia and the icons of the feast etc. give a sense of this tradition, along side the Latin hymns and art.

 

[Elijahmaria]

We have coming up this next week Theophany in the Eastern Church and Epiphany in the Latin Church. They are both feasts of the manifestation/appearance of God but in the West there is more emphasis on the Magi encountering Christ, and Him being revealed to the pagan world though them, in the East the Holy Trinity is revealed in the Baptism of our Lord in the Jordon by the Forerunner John, to really badly summarize. Anyway, this is a time when I bring up the differences in how we celebrate East and West on that Feastday. Such times to me are just natural times to bring in the fact of the Eastern Catholic Churches. It’s not a teaching on the ECCs* per se* but it raises the topic, and by sharing some festal troparia and the icons of the feast etc. give a sense of this tradition, along side the Latin hymns and art.

Indeed!! And we just passed the Feast of the Immaculate Conception and the companion feast of the Conception of St. Anne. These are all good opportunities.

May your labors be blessed.

M.

 

[CDB1718]

Thanks-I’ll be waiting. I thought you forgot about me for awhile there-after all the hoopla!

I didn’t forget. I’m working on it now.

 

[fhansen]

I didn’t forget. I’m working on it now.

OK, I bought Timothy Ware’s The Orthodox Church, BTW. Pretty good reading so far.

 

[5Loaves]

OK, I bought Timothy Ware’s The Orthodox Church, BTW. Pretty good reading so far.

A wonderful classic.
One of our priests is reading with great enthusiasm Metropolitan Jonah’s recent book Reflections on a Spiritual Journey. He preached from it yesterday and today: Do Not Resent, Do Not React, Keep Inner Stillness. This part is available in an article by Met Jonah on line in print and audio.

 

[PodunkMommy]

What I do not understand here is if there are differences between the Catholic rites in how truths are taught, why is this not taught to people in RCIA? Even better would be to have a simple test people could take and then they could find which one fits them the best. I understand if you are born into something, you are born into it. However for those of us who are not, who want to convert, it is a mess that seems to make no sense. It is almost like the Latin rite is hiding this information from us. Something about this whole thing seems to smell very badly to me…

Pax

When my husband converted to the Latin Rite, his RCIA did teach about the Eastern Rites of the Church. In fact, as a class they all went to a Byzantine Liturgy.

But in defense of the RCIA teachers, most aren’t properly catechized themselves and don’t even know that the Church has an Eastern part or they think that when you refer to Eastern Catholicism, they believe you’re talking about Orthodoxy.

In addition to lack of knowledge, you chose the Latin Church, did you not? The Rite of the Church that you choose is the Rite that you learn about. When preparing to join the Byzantine Church as an adult, you learn about the Byzantine Rite, not the Latin Rite. I had a friend who became Byzantine as an adult.

Sorry if you feel like you missed out on the Eastern part of your heritage. You still have plenty of time to learn about it.

Blessings.

 

[PodunkMommy]

Oh, and I don’t mean that my Byzantine friend didn’t learn where her Byzantine Rite was under the Pope. I meant they didn’t go into the “other Rites” of the Universal Catholic Church other then the Byzantine Rite in which she was joining.

I believe the Catholic Church has 5 main Rites; Latin (West), Antiochian (East), which is Byzantine, Syrian, Armenian and then the Alexandrian.

Isn’t it something like that? And then each one breaks down even more? I just read this book about all the different rites within the Catholic Church. This is just by memory, I may have it wrong.

Blessings.

 

[Vico]

Oh, and I don’t mean that my Byzantine friend didn’t learn where her Byzantine Rite was under the Pope. I meant they didn’t go into the “other Rites” of the Universal Catholic Church other then the Byzantine Rite in which she was joining.

I believe the Catholic Church has 5 main Rites; Latin (West), Antiochian (East), which is Byzantine, Syrian, Armenian and then the Alexandrian.

Isn’t it something like that? And then each one breaks down even more? I just read this book about all the different rites within the Catholic Church. This is just by memory, I may have it wrong.

Blessings.

Here is how the eastern canon law defines it:

CCEO Canon 28

1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris.
2. The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.

 

[couponfit]

What I do not understand here is if there are differences between the Catholic rites in how truths are taught, why is this not taught to people in RCIA? Even better would be to have a simple test people could take and then they could find which one fits them the best. I understand if you are born into something, you are born into it. However for those of us who are not, who want to convert, it is a mess that seems to make no sense. It is almost like the Latin rite is hiding this information from us. Something about this whole thing seems to smell very badly to me…

Pax

It would be very hard to even find a ECC, less alone one that is of the rite you are a member of. As a Roman Catholic I do enjoy attending ECC liturgy because I enjoy reflecting on the many beautiful forms of liturgy and practices. Attending an ECC makes me ask questions like “Why”, it helps me to affirm my own faith and it forces me to know more about my own faith and it makes my own RCC mass more meaningful to myself. More importantly I feel blessed in many personal ways when I attend.

But having done so I can say there are just too many ECC rites, they are very ethnic, each is unique, and they are just far too rare; and Roman Catholic would never be able to review that many liturgies, traditions, and rites. The Byzantine Tradition alone has 14 or more churches in communion with the Holy See, each has it’s own rite. Alexandrian tradition has at least two churches in communion and again same situation. Then there’s the Antiochian’s and they have at least 5 churches divided into East and West Syriac branches and finally the Armenian Traditions which I know little about. And I’m probably missing a few. Nationwide we have less than 700 ECC Parishes and missions in the US, and quite a few of them are not served by a priest. That may sound like a lot but most major US cities are lucky to have 2 or 3 of the 21 or more rites. You’re lucky to have one Catholic Church of each tradition in a major metro-plex.

Further, ECC can be confusing to RC’s during initiation. I find many of the RC’s I meet in ECC’s are not even there for the same reason I am. Many are either searching for some pristine mass that echoes the Tridentine liturgy, or they are RC converts who are simply searching universal theology of the church, or they married an EC.

Now you also asked about how truths are taught. Well it is like looking at a building from the East and again from the West. To the RC christ is a man who is also divine, thus we tend to celebrate and emphasize his divinity. To the EC christ is divine who is also man, thus we celebrate his humanity. The RC changed the mass format with Vatican II but up until then the priest in RC and EC faced the tabernacle, with his back to the congregation during much of the mass which emphasized that the priest was leading the congregation to heaven versus the post Vatican format of the RC of having heaven come to us with the priest facing us. Further not all of the different. The RCC emphasizes modern architecture and free artistic license and ECC emphasizes traditional architecture and conforming artistic license. These are just some differences.

 

[paglione]

When my husband converted to the Latin Rite, his RCIA did teach about the Eastern Rites of the Church. In fact, as a class they all went to a Byzantine Liturgy.

But in defense of the RCIA teachers, most aren’t properly catechized themselves and don’t even know that the Church has an Eastern part or they think that when you refer to Eastern Catholicism, they believe you’re talking about Orthodoxy.

In addition to lack of knowledge, you chose the Latin Church, did you not? The Rite of the Church that you choose is the Rite that you learn about. When preparing to join the Byzantine Church as an adult, you learn about the Byzantine Rite, not the Latin Rite. I had a friend who became Byzantine as an adult.

Sorry if you feel like you missed out on the Eastern part of your heritage. You still have plenty of time to learn about it.

Blessings.

 

[paglione]

I am a lifelong Latin rite Catholic interested in the Eastern Catholic Churches. I frequently attend the Byzantine Catholic Liturgy because of its beauty and holiness.
It is my belief that when a postulant enters an RCIA program (RCIA- Rite of Christian Initiation) he or she should be taught about Catholicism and the Universal Catholic Church and something about various Eastern Catholic rites that make up Universal Church. Of course the focus should be upon the rite that the postulant is interested in and that rite he/she plans to attend.
RCIA should be broad enough to teach something about the Universal Church and not just a narrow view of the Latin rite or Byzantine rite, etc.
Peter D. Aglione
Petradom737@aol.com