Why Doesn't Rome Give Up Her Heresies and Come Back into Communion With The Eastern Christian Churches?

[theistgal]

I have a couple of questions for the Orthodox here.

Is it necessary for you to criticize doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church in order to justify being Orthodox? Aren’t there any positive reasons for being Orthodox?

It just seems to me that these threads keep popping up on a regular basis - “I am Orthodox because Rome believes this”.

Can’t you be Orthodox regardless of what Rome, or Canterbury, or any other Christian communion believes?

 

[buffgbob]

last time I checked, Peter was the first leader of the Christian church, personally chosen by Christ Himself. The Orthodox split was in 1000 something, over 900 years later. The Catholic Church has always been…since that moment when Peter was chosen to lead.

Can you explain more about the “Heresies” you speak of?

She has been going over these points. The main issues which were touched on are the “Filioque”, Original Sin, and a permeating idea that Catholicism endorses limbo.

Majority of which are merely an excuse for Photius to try to establish on his see what Christ had established on Peter’s See. Jealousy, hatred, and pride; a sad story overall. Looking from an unbiased standpoint, one can hardly say Filoque or Original Sin are heretical (particularly Filoque as some Greek Fathers adopted it and even some contemporary Greek theologians say it is/was just a problem of translation).

But my view on this is clearly biased. You should read over the posts to really understand her view.

It is also not a bad idea to read the Catholic Encyclopedia on these articles. Although the articles will clearly support Catholic idea (which you should keep in mind), they generally do very good research into the different subjects. I haven’t seem them honestly try to distort context etc to support their claims. (It’s easy enough to look up the source material.)

newadvent.org

newadvent.org/cathen/06073a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm

 

[Christy74]

last time I checked, Peter was the first leader of the Christian church, personally chosen by Christ Himself. The Orthodox split was in 1000 something, over 900 years later. The Catholic Church has always been…since that moment when Peter was chosen to lead.

Can you explain more about the “Heresies” you speak of?

Then you have not read Acts 15 (I believe) the first Church Council where it was the Bishop James, not Peter, who lead the Council and after hearing all sides made the decision.

The Church has always been Concilliar not, what is the word I am looking for, a Dictatorship.

Read Church history, read the Fathers of the Church and you will see that it is true.

Plus just look at the results after 1,000 of Rome being separate from the Church:

The Orthodox Churches have remained in communion with one another, they have maintained the sacred Liturgies: Divine Liturgies, PreSanctified Liturgy, etc., they have maintained the teachings and beliefs of the Early Christians.

The Roman Church on the other hand has given birth to more than 30,000 different Protestant Churches! She has failed to maintain any holiness of the Liturgy, she has lost the all the other Liturgies, besides Mass (which is actually Divine Liturgy), she has left the beliefs of the Early Church and developed new doctrines which are not found anywhere in the beginning: Filioque, Purgatory, etc.

Open your eyes!

 

[buffgbob]

Open your eyes!

Pot calling the kettle black anyone? I won’t even go into how many of the above statements are outright wrong; just glancing I would say half of them.

 

[buffgbob]

Then you have not read Acts 15 (I believe) the first Church Council where it was the Bishop James, not Peter, who lead the Council and after hearing all sides made the decision.

The Church has always been Concilliar not, what is the word I am looking for, a Dictatorship.

Read Church history, read the Fathers of the Church and you will see that it is true.

I have; I found Churches consistantly appealing to Rome for Her authority.

Plus just look at the results after 1,000 of Rome being separate from the Church:

Funny, some might say, “Orthodox” instead of “Rome.”

The Orthodox Churches have remained in communion with one another, they have maintained the sacred Liturgies: Divine Liturgies, PreSanctified Liturgy, etc., they have maintained the teachings and beliefs of the Early Christians.

You clearly have no concept of history. It is a real stretch of the imagination to say that “The Orthodox Churches have remained in communion with one another.” The other parts, I agree; I can respect Orthodox liturgy and doctrine (inasmuch as their doctrine is not unnecessarily schismatic.)

The Roman Church on the other hand has given birth to more than 30,000 different Protestant Churches! She has failed to maintain any holiness of the Liturgy, she has lost the all the other Liturgies, besides Mass (which is actually Divine Liturgy), she has left the beliefs of the Early Church and developed new doctrines which are not found anywhere in the beginning: Filioque, Purgatory, etc.

Do I really need to go look up all those churhes which have split from Orthodoxy? It’s a moot point. However, here is an example of a Catholic Liturgy which disproves your point about what the Catholic Church has, according to you, “lost” (I think you will find this Church very familiar): The Melkite Catholic Church! You know, the one you belong to! It’s actually astounding that as a Catholic you have no concept of the universiality of the Catholic Church. I’m honestly flabbergasted.

Open your eyes!

Pot calling the kettle black, anyone?

 

[Christy74]

I have a couple of questions for the Orthodox here.

Is it necessary for you to criticize doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church in order to justify being Orthodox? Aren’t there any positive reasons for being Orthodox?

It just seems to me that these threads keep popping up on a regular basis - “I am Orthodox because Rome believes this”.

Can’t you be Orthodox regardless of what Rome, or Canterbury, or any other Christian communion believes?

What you are seeing here, is Orthodox and Eastern Catholics being constantly attacked for being Orthodox and Eastern Catholic so naturally when trying to defend their faith, they make comparisons to the Roman Catholic Faith.

The most important positive reason for becoming Orthodox and Eastern Catholic is: Theosis. (You can read: The Life by Clark Carlton for a wonderful, accurate, detailed description). This belief is completely different and substantially more beautiful than anything found in Roman Catholisim.

Plus the Eastern Churches maintain a rich tradition of the actual experience of God: monks through whom the very Light of God literally shines brightly - so much so, people had a hard time looking at them (remind you of Moses of the OT). Through the contests of the monastics the East has a rich history and spiritual fathers/mothers who can lead others to Theosis because they themselves have already reached it in this life time.

In the Spiritual Arena we are constantly bombarded with Logismos (thoughts) which lead us to sin, separation from God. The logismos can be from one of 3 sources: ourselves (which can be either positive or negative), from God (which would be positive) or from demons (which would be negative). The 5 levels of attack of negative logimos are known, described and we are given a sure map of how to overcome/conquer them in the Eastern Tradition. We also are enlighted about the 3 stages of Spiritual Life. We know what those stages are and have guides who have gone through each and reached Theosis. Sadly, if someone doesn’t even know about the 3 Stages how can they even being their Spiritual Journey at the 1st Stage?

This is all so positive and has absolutely nothing to do with the Church of Rome. It is so sad to me that so many who are in the Church of Rome are left without a spiritual defense and without a sure map of how to obtain the gift that God gives us freely: Theosis.

 

[chris_molter]

The Orthodox Churches have remained in communion with one another, they have maintained the sacred Liturgies: Divine Liturgies, PreSanctified Liturgy, etc., they have maintained the teachings and beliefs of the Early Christians.

The Roman Church on the other hand has given birth to more than 30,000 different Protestant Churches! She has failed to maintain any holiness of the Liturgy, she has lost the all the other Liturgies, besides Mass (which is actually Divine Liturgy), she has left the beliefs of the Early Church and developed new doctrines which are not found anywhere in the beginning: Filioque, Purgatory, etc.

Open your eyes!

REAAAAALLY. Wow.

Old Calendarists and Old Believers, anyone?

I love how you can unilaterally lay the blame for the Reformation at the feet of Rome. Sounds suspiciously like boilerplate Protestant rhetoric. (and even most of those accept that some of the blame lies with the Reformers, not the Church) Why didn’t the Eastern Orthodox have something similar? Well, even if you don’t count the various schisms within Orthodoxy throughout her history separate from Rome, there’s that little thing called the Enlightenment which fueled the Reformation and didn’t really occur in the East until later.

I suppose it could be argued that the Russian Revolution in the East was *somewhat *analogous to the Reformation in the West.

Anyway the rest of your argument (well… not so much an argument as a screed) is even more ridiculously bigoted and doesn’t deserve a response.

 

[buffgbob]

In the Spiritual Arena we are constantly bombarded with Logismos (thoughts) which lead us to sin, separation from God. The logismos can be from one of 3 sources: ourselves (which can be either positive or negative), from God (which would be positive) or from demons (which would be negative). The 5 levels of attack of negative logimos are known, described and we are given a sure map of how to overcome/conquer them in the Eastern Tradition. We also are enlighted about the 3 stages of Spiritual Life. We know what those stages are and have guides who have gone through each and reached Theosis. Sadly, if someone doesn’t even know about the 3 Stages how can they even being their Spiritual Journey at the 1st Stage?

Can you quote Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition (Early Church Fathers or Councils) which support 3 stages of Spiritual Life? If not, it sounds like the faithful remnant of Orthodoxy should rise up against his theological “innovation” and schism from Heretical Orthodoxy to form the “Orthodox Orthodox Church.” Of course, personally, I would never support an action like that because I prefer to look at my fellow Christians ideas with charity, inasmuch as they do not conflict with that original Deposit of Faith. I guess it would first take centuries of resentment and biase before the Orthodox Orthodox Church will really have a foothold to say the Orthodox are heretics.

 

[Christy74]

Do I really need to go look up all those churhes which have split from Orthodoxy? It’s a moot point. However, here is an example of a Catholic Liturgy which disproves your point about what the Catholic Church has, according to you, “lost” (I think you will find this Church very familiar): The Melkite Catholic Church! You know, the one you belong to! It’s actually astounding that as a Catholic you have no concept of the universiality of the Catholic Church. I’m honestly flabbergasted.

Yes, please name a single Church which has broken away from Orthodoxy.

You make me laugh! Thank you. I can always use a giggle! We are taking about the Roman Catholic Church and you say that Melkite Church is Roman?

You are so funny! The Melkite Church is Orthodox we are not a part of the Roman Church - we are in communion and have been since the 1700’s with the Church of Rome purely for political reasons. The Melkite Church has never accepted the doctrine of Papal Infallibility or other nonsensical new Roman dogma/doctrine.

For some bizzare reason it seems that you have equated in you own mind that because our Patriarch and your Patriarch are in communion with one another that somehow your Patriarch towers over our Patriarch and demands submission - THEY ARE EQUALS!

Now I am laughing so hard, tears are coming out!

I’ve always heard that one burns up a bunch of calories by laughing! I must have lost a pound!

 

[Mickey]

I suppose it could be argued that the Russian Revolution in the East was *somewhat *analogous to the Reformation in the West.

Huh?

 

[Christy74]

Can you quote Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition (Early Church Fathers or Councils) which support…

I can only name a few of the Fathers because I am at work and not at home:

St. Gregory of Sinai
St. John of the Ladder
St. Callistus
St. Ignatius

Remember that Councils where only ever called to order by the Emperor if there was a teaching or belief that was being disputed. The Councils were called to clarify so that the Empire would not be torn apart.

The teachings of the Spiritual Life have never been disputed so therefore there has never been a Council called to clarify the constant teaching.

Meanwhile, if you were to read about the Spiritual Life as written by the Orthodox Monastics, when you read Sacred Scripture again your eyes will be wide open and you will notice Jesus and the Apostles and even people from the Old Testament talking about each of the stages. You can find it in the Psalms, in Macc 4 and all over the New Testament just for an example.

You may want to read the Philokalia which is accepted by both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches as valid teachings.

 

[Mickey]

Yes, please name a single Church which has broken away from Orthodoxy.

Rome.

 

[Christy74]

Rome.

Now I’m really laughing!

The other person, sorry, I don’t remember the name, was saying that after Rome broke away from the Orthodox Churches there were many other Churches which broke away from the Orthodox Churches. I just want a name of one of them.

That person was attempting to down play the fact that since Rome broke away from Orthodoxy, Rome has given birth to more than 30,000 Protestant Churches.

 

[chris_molter]

Huh?

Ok, stay with me on this one… lol… The East didn’t experience the ‘Enlightenment’ until after most of Western Europe due to geographical distance, technological limitations, and so forth. When it DID, the eventual result was Marxism and the Communist Revolution, which resulted in the suppression of the Orthodox Faith (or collusion in some cases, sadly) and after all was said and done, the majority of Russians are either totally secular or only nominally Orthodox.

Obviously the comparison is inexact at best, but there are some interesting parallels. I’m sure I could make a halfway decent paper out of it with enough time and research

I just thought the whole idea of “Protestantism/schism is ALL ROME’S FAULT” was just silly. Not to mention untrue and historically unsupportable.

 

[Wyatt]

Maybe we could all just get along, yes?

Perhaps the way we could work towards reunification and healing of the schism is to start by just talking about how great Christ is, and how great what He did for us on Calvary is, and how great that sacrifice that is still present in the Eucharist is. After all, isn’t a friend of a friend ones friend? We both love Christ, so now we need to focus on how to love each other.

 

[chris_molter]

Rome.

Heh… cute

But the same game can be played just by turning the mirror around. Since Rome sees herself as the True Orthodox, then we just wind up with asinine Schoolyard games like

Uh huh! I’m the OHCAC!
Nuh uh! I’M the OHCAC!
Uh HUH! I’M THE OHCAC!!
NUH UH! I’M THE OHCAC!!!

and so on and so forth until anathemas are hurled, one party suckers the other into getting involved in their Byzantine intruiges and someone sacks someone else’s capitol and makes off with the relics.

 

[buffgbob]

melkite.org/eastern.htm

Eastern Catholic Churches are groups of Christians whose traditions are based on the style of Constantinople but are in union with the church of Rome. The Eastern Catholic is a member of the Catholic Church, under the authority of the Vatican and the Pope, but worshipping within a different organizational structure.

(emphasis mine.)

melkite.org/xCouncil/Council-1.htm

The primacy of Peter, the infallible primacy, is a great grace, a charism granted by God to His Church, not for the advantage of a few, nor of Catholics alone, but of all Christians, including Orthodox and Protestants. All these Christians have the right to profit from this charism. At the present time there are obstacles that prevent them from seeing and attaining to this charism, obstacles placed either by them or by us Catholics. For our part, we must begin by removing the obstacles that stem from us, without waiting for the others to get started. This work will be part of the functions of the proposed commission.

(emphasis mine.)

You want just one example? Easy enough to google (I would do thourough research but honestly your responses don’t warrent it):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

 

[RobHom]

Then you have not read Acts 15 (I believe) the first Church Council where it was the Bishop James, not Peter, who lead the Council and after hearing all sides made the decision.

**13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying: Men, brethren, hear me. 14 Simon hath related how God first visited to take of the Gentiles a people to his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written… **

Is not in that passage, James just reinforcing what Simon-Peter said? It was not as if he had a choice in the matter.

I’ll not argue your other points I deleted here…as I am not that well versed in them.

The Roman Church on the other hand has given birth to more than 30,000 different Protestant Churches! She has failed to maintain any holiness of the Liturgy, she has lost the all the other Liturgies, besides Mass (which is actually Divine Liturgy), she has left the beliefs of the Early Church and developed new doctrines which are not found anywhere in the beginning: Filioque, Purgatory, etc.

On the issue of Filioque…it would seem that at least 3 of the Greek Fathers of the EC agreed with it…according to this article:
bringyou.to/apologetics/a52.htm I read the article and I think I understand it…so I will freely admit that I am a lay person, not a theologian…but what it appears to me is that in essence it is more or less a “non-issue”. Now…I am not saying that to be unkind or brash…but because the article points out the specific nuances of translations… Ancient Greek and Latin do not have specific and genuine translations for all words back and forth…and it seems that what lacked in a sense because Latin did not have a meaning to match perfectly with a Greek meaning there was a problem.

To me it is less of an issue…than it seems to be to others. Purgatory is less of an issue than it is to others, at least to me.

Frankly I have always considered my Eastern Brothers and Sisters to be just that!

But, my dear sister, to lay the fault of the Reformation and spawning of all the protestant groups at the feet of Rome is a little much. Those people actually existed prior to the Reformation. At some point or another…it would have happened even if the Pope ordered Luther locked in a cell in a monastery… a cloistered one at that.

Open your eyes!

I gotta…or I’ll cut myself shaving!! But seriously, I think we all need to do that…and share our thoughts…I believe it is important that we of all of the Catholic Rites need to strive for harmony and agreement for all of our good, and for His Glory!!

 

[buffgbob]

Wait I found a list:
Orthodox Churches and communities not in communion with others
Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Bulgarian Alternative Synod
Orthodox Church in Italy
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Montenegrin Orthodox Church
Russian True Orthodox Church
Turkish Orthodox Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kiev Patriarchate)
Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America
Orthodox Catholic Churches of America

Old Believers
Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church (Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy)
Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite Church (Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy)
Russian Old-Orthodox Church (Novozybkovskaya Hierarchy)
Pomorian Old-Orthodox Church (Pomortsy)

Old Calendarist
Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece
Orthodox Church of Greece (Holy Synod in Resistance)
Old Calendar Romanian Orthodox Church
Old Calendar Bulgarian Orthodox Church
Russian Orthodox Church in America (Recognized as Autonomous by some)
Holy Orthodox Church in North America

Defunct churches
Croatian Orthodox Church
Chinese Orthodox Church
Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church in North America (THEOCACNA)

Majority of those Churches are real Churches too! (They have priests etc) Meanwhile, none of use Catholic or Orthodox are ready to say Protestants actually have Churches.

 

[Mickey]

Ok, stay with me on this one… lol… The East didn’t experience the ‘Enlightenment’ until after most of Western Europe due to geographical distance, technological limitations, and so forth. When it DID, the eventual result was Marxism and the Communist Revolution, which resulted in the suppression of the Orthodox Faith (or collusion in some cases, sadly) and after all was said and done, the majority of Russians are either totally secular or only nominally Orthodox.

The atheistic communist regime murdered countless Orthodox laity and clergy. The blood of the Russian Orthodox martyrs has stained Russian soil for eternity. Churches were destroyed. Some clergy cooperated to save their own lives and were murdered anyway. Others pretended to cooperate and were murdered anyway. Today, the Russian Orthodox Church flourishes. Pilgrimages attract many thousands of faithful. Processions become national holidays. Cties and streets are shut down. You will never see anything like it in America.

Your comparison of the communist regime to the protestant reformation is way off base and rather insulting.