Why doesn't the Anglican Church have a valid sacrament of Holy Orders?

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I understand that only the Anglican Church believes that the Anglican Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and “Roman” Catholic Church make up the “Catholic Church”.

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church doesn’t hold this view, of course. In fact, the Catholic Church says the Anglican Church doesn’t have true Apostolic Succession.

Why is that? Is something wrong within the sacrament? I’m just curious. Why can’t the Church confront the Anglican Church and explain what should be done to have valid bishops?

Isn’t it because of this invalid Holy Orders that they also have an invalid Eucharist? Hasn’t some form of unity in regards to this sacrament (Holy Orders) tried to be attained?

So what is the problem? What are they doing wrong?
 
I understand that only the Anglican Church believes that the Anglican Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and “Roman” Catholic Church make up the “Catholic Church”.

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church doesn’t hold this view, of course. In fact, the Catholic Church says the Anglican Church doesn’t have true Apostolic Succession.

Why is that? Is something wrong within the sacrament? I’m just curious. Why can’t the Church confront the Anglican Church and explain what should be done to have valid bishops?

Isn’t it because of this invalid Holy Orders that they also have an invalid Eucharist? Hasn’t some form of unity in regards to this sacrament (Holy Orders) tried to be attained?

So what is the problem? What are they doing wrong?
It’s not what they are doing wrong (though some of them are doing things wrong, today). It’s what they did wrong, according to the Bull Apostolicae Curae, issued over the signature of Leo XIII, in 1896. The history of where this document came from is complicated, and let’s ignore it. What it addressed was a two-fold question: had the RCC had a consistent policy toward Anglican orders and what was it, and should this policy be maintained or changed.

The answer arrived at was that yes, there had been such a policy, it was to treat Anglican orders as invalid and the policy should be continued. (And yes, it followed that without valid orders, Anglicans could not confect a valid Eucharist).

Thus saith Apostolicae Curae. But it also undertook to justify this position. In brief, it saif that the problem with Anglican orders was a combination of two factors related to the nature of a sacrament: form and intent. Form was judged to be invalid, since the Edwardine Ordinal, which was used until 1662 to ordain Anglican priests and consecrate bishops, did not specifically mention the nature and office of a sacerdotal priest; that is, to offer the Eucharistic sacrifice. The issue of intent, which must be considered together with form in this case, iis more complicated, and *Apostolicae Curae *is not quite clear on just whose intent was at fault. Intent has to inhere in the action of a particular individual, in a particular action, and *Apostolicae Curae *is not completely clear on just whose intent and which action was invalid. The best single discussion of the whole subject, from the RCC standpoint, is a book written by a then Jesuit priest, Francis Clark, ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION. Clark concludes that the intent is that of those who consecrated Archbishop Parker, in 1559, Parker being a bottleneck in the Anglican episcoapcy.

There are a lot more details, but that’s the essence. And though the Ordinal, after 1662, no longer had the defective form, since (according to Apostolicae Curae) the chain of Anglcan Apostolic succession was broken 100 years before, it could not be regained.

Much more can be discussed, but that’s the gist.

I may have mentioned, somewhere, that Anglicans have a different view of it all.

BTW, the Orthodox Church, generally, in following the Cyprianic theory of Apostolic succession, holds that neither the RCC, or the Anglicans possess valid orders. Not all, of them, but generally.

It is a sad subject.

And I’m not really here, I just stopped by to check my mail.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
 
Hi
I am not real scholarly so i may not understand this thread.

In Australia lay married Catholics cant become Catholic priests but Anglican married priests can become Catholic priests.

My understanding was this is ok because they are already ordained.

I assumed this meant their ordination was valid.
 
Hi
I am not real scholarly so i may not understand this thread.

In Australia lay married Catholics cant become Catholic priests but Anglican married priests can become Catholic priests.

My understanding was this is ok because they are already ordained.

I assumed this meant their ordination was valid.
No. They would have to be ordained as RC priests, and this is almost always, but not every time, done absolutely. That is, done as if they were absolutely not previously ordained but were laymen.

In this country this is done under the Pastoral Provision, but I’m not sure about Australia.

On very rare occasions, such an ordination may done conditionally (sub conditione), for interesting technical reasons.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
 
I am grateful to God for your response.

Do you know why married Anglican priests can become Catholic priests buy married laity cant?
 
No. They would have to be ordained as RC priests, and this is almost always, but not every time, done absolutely. That is, done as if they were absolutely not previously ordained but were laymen.

In this country this is done under the Pastoral Provision, but I’m not sure about Australia.

On very rare occasions, such an ordination may done conditionally (sub conditione), for interesting technical reasons.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
##** If AOs are not valid for “Roman” activities, could they not be valid even so, though non-Romanly ? They might be no good for confecting the Mass - but the Reformers were not trying to do that. So their intentions may, in that sense, be neither here nor there. Why can’t there be a Christian public prayer which is Eucharistic, but not a sacrificial Eucharist ? That X is not existent, does not amount to saying it must not be, cannot be, must never be. **

**I’m not aware of discussion of this point - it’s very hard to believe there has been none. :cool: **
 
I am grateful to God for your response.

Do you know why married Anglican priests can become Catholic priests buy married laity cant?
It’s a part of the RCC discipline. But I am not the one to explain it.

GKC
 
Do you know why married Anglican priests can become Catholic priests buy married laity cant?
Ordaining married formerly Anglican (and a few Lutherans and other) clergy is an exception to the Latin rite discipline of clerical celibacy. It’s called the Pastoral Provision here in the US, and more info can be found here: www.pastoralprovision.org

Other Catholic Churches can and do ordain married men to the Priesthood.
 
I am grateful to God for your response.

Do you know why married Anglican priests can become Catholic priests buy married laity cant?
As GKC said, it’s a matter of discipline, not doctrine.

It’s an ancient tradition, in both the East and the West, for bishops to be celebate.

In the West we also have the tradition (not quite as ancient, but still over a thousand years old) for priests to be celebate as well. (Note: This applies only to Latin-rite Catholic priest. Eastern priests can be married, just like Eastern Orthodox priests.)
 
As GKC said, it’s a matter of discipline, not doctrine.

It’s an ancient tradition, in both the East and the West, for bishops to be celebate.

In the West we also have the tradition (not quite as ancient, but still over a thousand years old) for priests to be celebate as well. (Note: This applies only to Latin-rite Catholic priest. Eastern priests can be married, just like Eastern Orthodox priests.)
See, these are the guys to explain it.

GKC
 
Do you know why married Anglican priests can become Catholic priests buy married laity can’t?
I guess it comes down this: the Latin Church doesn’t have a problem with married priests, but prefers celebate priests.
 
I give thanks to God for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I knew from the bible it was not against Gods will, and that in many parts of the world their are married Catholic priests.

I guess what i have learned for you all is that in Australia bishops have decided that they will not allow it.

It is sad for me, many Catholics here, including clergy feel a need for priests and see we have to few.

The sadness is that the married men God calls to this service are stopped by Bishops.

Sadness for the man called, the people they are called to serve and the Bishops if they are against Gods will.
 
I give thanks to God for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I knew from the bible it was not against Gods will, and that in many parts of the world their are married Catholic priests.

I guess what i have learned for you all is that in Australia bishops have decided that they will not allow it.

It is sad for me, many Catholics here, including clergy feel a need for priests and see we have to few.

The sadness is that the married men God calls to this service are stopped by Bishops.

Sadness for the man called, the people they are called to serve and the Bishops if they are against Gods will.
That’s not quite it. The Pastoral Provision makes it possible for some married clergymen, who join the RCC, to become priests in the Roman Rite. This primarily applies to former Anglican priests, and some Lutheran ministers.

The general rule of the RCC around the world, though, is that the Roman Rite does not accept married priests, outside the cases under the Pastoral Provision. It’s not the decision of the Australian bishops.

Subject to correction, of course.

GKC
 
I understand that only the Anglican Church believes that the Anglican Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and “Roman” Catholic Church make up the “Catholic Church”.

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church doesn’t hold this view, of course. In fact, the Catholic Church says the Anglican Church doesn’t have true Apostolic Succession.

Why is that? Is something wrong within the sacrament? I’m just curious. Why can’t the Church confront the Anglican Church and explain what should be done to have valid bishops?

Isn’t it because of this invalid Holy Orders that they also have an invalid Eucharist? Hasn’t some form of unity in regards to this sacrament (Holy Orders) tried to be attained?

So what is the problem? What are they doing wrong?
I have been Anglican for several years now and never have I heard even once that anyone in the Anglican church cares that Roman Catholics think that our Sacrements are invalid. To go one extra step, I also do not care in the least what the RCC says or thinks of our Sacrements. It matters not.
 
I have been Anglican for several years now and never have I heard even once that anyone in the Anglican church cares that Roman Catholics think that our Sacrements are invalid. To go one extra step, I also do not care in the least what the RCC says or thinks of our Sacrements. It matters not.
Alright.

Personally, I care about whether or not the Eastern Orthodox recognize our (Catholic) sacraments as valid (they don’t, for the most part). I’m not saying my whole life revolves around it or anything, but I do care a little.
 
I give thanks to God for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I knew from the bible it was not against Gods will, and that in many parts of the world their are married Catholic priests.

I guess what i have learned for you all is that in Australia bishops have decided that they will not allow it.
Do you mean, they decided not to have the Pastoral Provision?
 
Alright.

Personally, I care about whether or not the Eastern Orthodox recognize our (Catholic) sacraments as valid (they don’t, for the most part). I’m not saying my whole life revolves around it or anything, but I do care a little.
You are entitled to that I suppose.🤷
 
Alright.

Personally, I care about whether or not the Eastern Orthodox recognize our (Catholic) sacraments as valid (they don’t, for the most part). I’m not saying my whole life revolves around it or anything, but I do care a little.
This is sort of my attitude on the matter, too.

GKC
 
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