Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[Enoch]

Justasking and emeraldisle:

I have a question. If all evidence of the Bible were to suddenly disappear today, would Christianity suddenly cease to exist. If not, how would the faith carry on without a single word the Bible?

 

[CentralFLJames]

What exactly was this oral tradition that you and others keep referring to? It can’t be the Scriptures since those are written. What exactly are they i.e. “Jesus used the oral tradition and passed it on to the Twelve, who passed it on to Paul”?

It would help me tredmendously if you can give me a couple of examples of it.

One oral tradition is for the teacher to teach with authority and for the neophyte (a person newly converted to a belief, as a heathen, heretic, or nonbeliever; proselyte.) to listen to what was being taught as opposed to permitting the neophyte under a pretense of being a Christian and with no authority from contradicting the teacher to “teach” the teacher. The latter tradition started in Protestant assemblies after Luther taught it.

James

 

[justasking4]

Justasking and emeraldisle:

I have a question. If all evidence of the Bible were to suddenly disappear today, would Christianity suddenly cease to exist. If not, how would the faith carry on without a single word the Bible?

I don’t think so. It has been said that if you were to take all the quotations of scripture from the church fathers you would have the entire Bible except for 9 verses.

I do think without the Bible Christianity would not look like it does today. It would be riddled with far more errors.

 

[Enoch]

How do you know these are all oral traditions and not written down somewhere? Just because something is not found in the OT does not make it a oral tradition. Oral traditions by definition are not written down.

No mention of it ever being written. Besides, if it was written down elsewhere but not in the Bible, how does that make it any more relevant? There was lots of garbage written back then too.

3John.1 13-14
I had much to write to you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink; I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face.

Here John is preferring oral to written

Aslo:

2Thes.3
[6] Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

2Thes.2
[15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter

 

[Enoch]

I don’t think so. It has been said that if you were to take all the quotations of scripture from the church fathers you would have the entire Bible except for 9 verses.

I do think without the Bible Christianity would not look like it does today. It would be riddled with far more errors.

I said **ALL ** evidence. Including anything anyone has copied.

 

[Enoch]

I said **ALL ** evidence. Including anything anyone has copied.

Also, I noticed you said MORE errors.

 

[emeraldisle]

Um, did I do that? I simply said he won’t answer the question, which he won’t.

I have answered your question but of course because I answered it from the Scriptures you don’t accept my answer. The following comments were my answer to your question.

Yes I’m sure you have already been told to read 2 Tim 3:16-17.

Remember the Scriptures is Gods written Word, now if you want to say Gods Word isn’t sufficient for all we need in the Christian life then you must believe in a very small God.

Also is it not good that I’m seeking to be like the Bereans. So Im searching the Scriptures to see if the teaching that Mary was sinless is true or false and Gods written Word is telling me that Mary wasn’t sinless and so this teaching is false.

I’m so thankful to God that I have a copy of His written Word so that I can search it to find out Gods truth and Im glad that Ive found out the truth in Gods written Word that Mary wasn’t sinless.

*Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Acts 17:11
*

.

 

[emeraldisle]

Justasking and emeraldisle:

I have a question. If all evidence of the Bible were to suddenly disappear today, would Christianity suddenly cease to exist. If not, how would the faith carry on without a single word the Bible?

If God could disappear then maybe His written Word could too.

.

 

[kaycee]

Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy “He shall be a Nazarene” is oral tradition. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the oral tradition of acknowledging Moses’ seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

John 19:26; 20:2; 21:20,24 - knowing that the “beloved disciple” is John is inferred from Scripture, but is also largely oral tradition.

Acts 20:35 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles for this statement (“it is better to give than to receive”) of Jesus. It is not recorded in the Gospels.

1 Cor. 7:10 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles to give the charge of Jesus that a wife should not separate from her husband.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exodus 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

Eph 5:14 - Paul relies on oral tradition to quote an early Christian hymn - “awake O sleeper rise from the dead and Christ shall give you light.”

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the oral tradition of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of the Archangel Michael’s dispute with satan over Moses’ body. This is not found in the Old Testament.

Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of Enoch’s prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Guess, these might be some examples of small t tradition. Some are more or less guesses and some are most likely special revelation.
Dont think I would put the rememberance of a pet name into the tradition category.

Are there ANY big T traditions you can think of that Paul did not write about?

 

[Enoch]

Guess, these might be some examples of small t tradition. Some are more or less guesses and some are most likely special revelation.
Dont think I would put the rememberance of a pet name into the tradition category.

Are there ANY big T traditions you can think of that Paul did not write about?

Ummm. All big T traditionas are in harmony with Scripture and supported by scripture.

**Sacred Tradition (CCC 75–83) **
Sacred Tradition should not be confused with mere traditions of men, which are more commonly called customs or disciplines. Jesus sometimes condemned customs or disciplines, but only if they were contrary to God’s commands (Mark 7:8). He never condemned sacred Tradition, and he didn’t even condemn all human tradition.

Sacred Tradition and the Bible are not different or competing revelations. They are two ways that the Church hands on the gospel. Apostolic teachings such as the Trinity, infant baptism, the inerrancy of the Bible, purgatory, and Mary’s perpetual virginity have been most clearly taught through Tradition, although they are also implicitly present in (and not contrary to) the Bible. The Bible itself tells us to hold fast to Tradition, whether it comes to us in written or oral form (2 Thess. 2:15, 1 Cor. 11:2).

Sacred Tradition should not be confused with customs and disciplines, such as the rosary, priestly celibacy, and not eating meat on Fridays in Lent. These are good and helpful things, but they are not doctrines. Sacred Tradition preserves doctrines first taught by Jesus to the apostles and later passed down to us through the apostles’ successors, the bishops.

 

[LilyM]

I have answered your question but of course because I answered it from the Scriptures you don’t accept my answer. The following comments were my answer to your question.

Also is it not good that I’m seeking to be like the Bereans. So Im searching the Scriptures to see if the teaching that Mary was sinless is true or false and Gods written Word is telling me that Mary wasn’t sinless and so this teaching is false.

I’m so thankful to God that I have a copy of His written Word so that I can search it to find out Gods truth and Im glad that Ive found out the truth in Gods written Word that Mary wasn’t sinless.

*Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Acts 17:11
*

.

On the point of whether oral Tradition was written down - well d’uh, if it was written down anywhere, being part of God’s holy teaching He would’ve preserved that writing just as He has the scriptures. Instead He preserved the Tradition all right, but in a different way - namely the oral teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, some of which were eventually written down but would’ve been none the less certainly God’s teaching if they hadn’t been.

As for your precious Bereans you clearly haven’t read their whole story. In Acts 17:13-14 they turn against Paul and send him away from Berea. Sounds like for all their scripture reading they were especially weak in the faith, I wouldn’t be using them as an example for my behaviour if I were you.

 

[Pier]

Its better if you give the Bible references and version so it’s possible to check if what your saying is correct.

Also your response proves the point that the Bible doesn’t say that Mary is sinless and so one has to try and make a vague interpretation of the Bible to support the view that Mary is sinless.

Also the Bible records all the major issues and the idea the Mary is sinless is a major issue and one which would definitely be mentioned in Gods Word if it were true.

The Bible says an angel who was sent directly from God said she was full of grace, and it also says she was blessed among women…

Plus the fact that she’s the mother of God…

Matthew 1: 23
The virgin shall be with child and give birth to a son…

Luke 1:28
Upon arriving, the angel said to her: “Rejoice, O highly favored daughter! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.”

Luke 1:48
For he has looked upon his servant in her lowliness: all ages to come shall call me blessed.

This is from the Official Catholic, New American Bible, Red Letter Edition, so it’s all there.

 

[kaycee]

Ummm. All big T traditionas are in harmony with Scripture and supported by scripture.

**Sacred Tradition (CCC 75–83) **
Sacred Tradition should not be confused with mere traditions of men, which are more commonly called customs or disciplines. Jesus sometimes condemned customs or disciplines, but only if they were contrary to God’s commands (Mark 7:8). He never condemned sacred Tradition, and he didn’t even condemn all human tradition.

Sacred Tradition and the Bible are not different or competing revelations. They are two ways that the Church hands on the gospel. Apostolic teachings such as the Trinity, infant baptism, the inerrancy of the Bible, purgatory, and Mary’s perpetual virginity have been most clearly taught through Tradition, although they are also implicitly present in (and not contrary to) the Bible. The Bible itself tells us to hold fast to Tradition, whether it comes to us in written or oral form (2 Thess. 2:15, 1 Cor. 11:2).

Sacred Tradition should not be confused with customs and disciplines, such as the rosary, priestly celibacy, and not eating meat on Fridays in Lent. These are good and helpful things, but they are not doctrines. Sacred Tradition preserves doctrines first taught by Jesus to the apostles and later passed down to us through the apostles’ successors, the bishops.

It seems your round-a-bout answer to my question would be that, the apostles only orally on infant baptism, purgatory, and Mary’s perpetual virginity, papal doctrine, etc…

Is that what you mean?

 

[bookgirl32]

I have answered your question but of course because I answered it from the Scriptures you don’t accept my answer. The following comments were my answer to your question.

Also is it not good that I’m seeking to be like the Bereans. So Im searching the Scriptures to see if the teaching that Mary was sinless is true or false and Gods written Word is telling me that Mary wasn’t sinless and so this teaching is false.

I’m so thankful to God that I have a copy of His written Word so that I can search it to find out Gods truth and Im glad that Ive found out the truth in Gods written Word that Mary wasn’t sinless.

*Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Acts 17:11
*

.

That didn’t answer my question. My question was to show me scripture that states that scripture is the ONLY authority. That doesn’t state that. So that’s not an answer. You could answer, “There isn’t one,” which is the truth, but I think you’re afraid it will prove sola scriptura wrong, by it’s own definition.

 

[justasking4]

I said **ALL ** evidence. Including anything anyone has copied.

My mistake. Without anything written i think within a generation or 2 it would be gone.

 

[justinthemartyr]

why doesn’t the Bible say that God is Triune?

well it does, implicitly, but not explicitly.
’
the same goes for the sinlessness of Mary.

 

[emeraldisle]

On the point of whether oral Tradition was written down - well d’uh, if it was written down anywhere, being part of God’s holy teaching He would’ve preserved that writing just as He has the scriptures. Instead He preserved the Tradition all right, but in a different way - namely the oral teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, some of which were eventually written down but would’ve been none the less certainly God’s teaching if they hadn’t been.

As for your precious Bereans you clearly haven’t read their whole story. In Acts 17:13-14 they turn against Paul and send him away from Berea. Sounds like for all their scripture reading they were especially weak in the faith, I wouldn’t be using them as an example for my behaviour if I were you.

Not search the Scriptures to see if the teaching that Mary is sinless is true or false. No thank you I’ll take the good instruction from Gods written Word to search the Scriptures and find out Gods truth.

It’s good that I have found out the truth from Gods written Word that Mary wasn’t sinless.

.

 

[LilyM]

It seems your round-a-bout answer to my question would be that, the apostles only orally on infant baptism, purgatory, and Mary’s perpetual virginity, papal doctrine, etc…

Is that what you mean?

If you mean the Apostles only TAUGHT orally on those topics, yes indeedy. And it’s just as authoritative as Jesus’ own teachings which were ALL oral, if you recall

 

[emeraldisle]

The Bible says an angel who was sent directly from God said she was full of grace, and it also says she was blessed among women…

Plus the fact that she’s the mother of God…

Matthew 1: 23
The virgin shall be with child and give birth to a son…

Luke 1:28
Upon arriving, the angel said to her: “Rejoice, O highly favored daughter! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.”

Luke 1:48
For he has looked upon his servant in her lowliness: all ages to come shall call me blessed.

This is from the Official Catholic, New American Bible, Red Letter Edition, so it’s all there.

Where does it say Mary was sinless?

.

 

[kaycee]

As for your precious Bereans you clearly haven’t read their whole story. In Acts 17:13-14 they turn against Paul and send him away from Berea. Sounds like for all their scripture reading they were especially weak in the faith, I wouldn’t be using them as an example for my behaviour if I were you.

Sorry, but it was the Berean “crowds” NOT the Berean Brethren that were “agitated” against Paul. The Brethren escorted Paul to safety.

Before throwing Scripture back in someones face, at least rightly divide the meaning. :tsktsk:

EmeraldIsle is right on the money.