Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[justasking4]

The same number who name Jesus by name as the Messiah of God. But Isaiah tells us that a virgin shall conceive and bear a child, and Moses tells us in the book of Genesis that the woman child shall strike the head of the serpent with her heel.

Technically, no. They did sing about her perfections, though.

You alone and your Mother
Are more beautiful than any others;
For there is no blemish in you,
Nor any stain upon your Mother;
Who of my children
Can compare to the beauty of these?

Words to a hymn of the Early Church.

This hymn says nothing about her being an ark though.

 

[LilyM]

When a catholic prays to a saint that saint is dead. The body of that person is dead in the ground etc. Now, was Moses dead when they asked him to intercede for them?

Moses was alive in God (albeit in limbo, not in heaven) and just as capable of prayer as when he was alive. Remember some Jews up until Jesus’ time didn’t even believe in bodily resurrection, so who knows whether they all believed in eternal life. If you read Maccabees, you may consider it scripture or not but it IS evidence that at least some Jews beleived in praying for the dead.

Now answer me this - if Our Lord said that the rich man could pray to Abraham from hell, then why can we not pray to Abraham? Remember the problem with his prayers was that he was in hell (separated from Abraham’s abode of the righteous) and not that Abraham was dead or that the rich man was praying to someone other than God.

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;3592310]They ‘contributed’? In other words there’s something OTHER than Scripture that we have to pay attention to? What else is there that could possibly matter, though? According to you if it ain’t in the Bible isn’t not worthy of belief.

Huh? Do you have any doubts that the day of worship was Sunday for Christians?

And according to you there’s no such thing as extrabiblical tradition because we simply don’t know what was taught outside of the Bible and other writings could be wrong anyways.

It depends what were talking about.

So you still have to answer the question - where is Sunday worship in the Bible?

I have answered in by the resurrection and pentecost.

You also have to explain away the many references in Acts to the Apostles going to synagogue on Saturdays. There’s nothing to indicate that they didn’t go there to worship God on His unchanging (read the OT or ask any Seventh-Day Adventist for references) Sabbath, as they had done every Saturday for all their lives.

This was a gradual transition as was the changing of the food laws of the OT no longer being binding.

And explain away Jesus HIMSELF who definitely went to synagogue of a Saturday and said nothing of Sundays - is that not evidence against the practice of Sunday worship if anything is?

The resurrection of Christ was evenually the basis for worship on Sundays. It was such a powerful event that it changed the way Christian thought of as a day of worship.

 

[justasking4]

Moses was alive in God (albeit in limbo, not in heaven) and just as capable of prayer. Remember some Jews up until Jesus time didn’t even believe in the Resurrection, so who knows whether they believed in eternal life.

Now answer me this - if Our Lord said that the rich man could pray to Abraham from hell, then why can we not pray to Abraham? Remember the problem with his prayers was that he was in hell (separated from Abraham’s abode of the righteous) and not that Abraham was dead or that the rich man was praying to someone other than God.

Is this passage about prayer or is Jesus using this parable to illustrate a point?

Secondly, this parable is about the after life. None of these characters were alive in the world in the parable.

 

[LilyM]

Huh? Do you have any doubts that the day of worship was Sunday for Christians?

No - but not because it’s in scripture anywhere, because it isn’t. Which means you’re relying on extrabiblical tradition. Kinda like we rely on extrabiblical tradition about Mary.

It depends what were talking about.

You’ve said it many times - that you believe no, literally no, Apostolic teaching survives outside the Bible. Doesn’t matter on what topic, at least you’ve never said before that it depends on topic.

I have answered in by the resurrection and pentecost.

No you haven’t - there’s no indication in scripture that early Christians worshipped on Sundays - not for these reasons or any other. On the contrary, there’s every indication that they kept to the Saturday sabbath instead.

This was a gradual transition as was the changing of the food laws of the OT no longer being binding.

Where in scripture does it say that Sunday worship was required and that Saturday worship isn’t binding any longer? There’s no ‘Peter and Cornelius’ moment where it’s made clear, is there?

The resurrection of Christ was evenually the basis for worship on Sundays. It was such a powerful event that it changed the way Christian thought of as a day of worship.

Doesn’t mean it was God’s will or Apostolic teaching that they worship on Sunday, since according to you, outside of scripture we don’t know what the Apostles taught.

 

[EphelDuath]

When a catholic prays to a saint that saint is dead. The body of that person is dead in the ground etc. Now, was Moses dead when they asked him to intercede for them?

“I am not a God of the dead but a God of the living.”

John the Baptist was the greatest of the prophets but still less than but the lowest man in the kingdom of heaven.

You’re wrong, ja4. Those in heaven are more alive than we are.

 

[LilyM]

Is this passage about prayer or is Jesus using this parable to illustrate a point?

Secondly, this parable is about the after life. None of these characters were alive in the world in the parable.

Yes - the point (or one point) of the parable is that being in Hell cuts you off from God’s grace and makes your prayers ineffective. Whereas being in heaven/limbo of the righteous, it appears, doesn’. So it’s very much about prayer.

And are you seriously suggesting, then, that the dead can pray to each other but the living can’t, is that it? That Christ has two separate bodies, one living and one dead, and never the twain shall meet? You’re getting more ridiculous about this every second!

 

[guanophore]

One of the factors in correct interpretation would be context. Does the context support the claim? Are the writers speaking of praying to the dead in these passages?

Yes, this is one of the factors. However, there are some truths that transcend all contexts, and such is the belief about the communion of saints. Jesus states that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. This truth transcends all contexts. Paul writes that to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord, and this truth transcends all contexts. There are multiple passages that enjoin us to pray for one another, and none that indicate this practice should stop once one passes from this life to the next. In Revelation we get a glimpse into the heavenly realm, and there we see the saints and angels in active prayer, and the prayers of the saints being offered by them before the throne of God. The context of this is Divine Revelation, which transcends all other contexts. And finally , we have the context of the NT, which is the Church, and we see that the persons who wrote the NT texts practiced these prayers from the beginning.

You are incorrect here in comparing Mary and Eve. Eve was formed out of the rib of Adam before the fall and did not inherit Adams sin. Mary on the other hand was born of human parents and conceived in the same way as all fallen humans are. Mary inherited the sin of Adam because of this.

Honestly, ja4! Who are you to tell me what comparisons I make theologically that are incorrect!? Don’t I have as much right as you do to interpret scripture? Why can’t I make any comparisons that are convenient?

We see it differently, ja4. We see that God can create Woman without sin once, and can do so again. We see Jesus referring to His mother using the title “Woman” indicating that she represents all that He indended humanity to become. In any case, it is not my comparison, but that of the Early Fathers, so I guess you will have to take up your arguement with them. Oh, wait. I guess you can’t, because you think that none of these ideas existed at the time!

Its what you are doing with the scriptures that is the problem. You are saying something about Mary even though the scriptures never speak of her like this. Take the phrase “pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death” is something that the scripture never implore us to do. All prayer is to be directed to God alone.

This is an inaccurate assertion, ja4. In fact, we can see people asking one another for prayer in scripture.

Acts 8:20-24
20 But Peter said to him, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” 24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

There is no difference between Simon saying “pray for me to the Lord”, and saying to Mary “pray for me to the Lord”. There are no instructions in the bible or out of it that imply that death, which cannot separate us, has any bearing on our prayers.

However, ja4, if you do not believe that the effectual fervent prayers of a righteous person avail much, or perhaps you believe you are not in need of prayers from the righteous, then you are under no obligation to ask for them.

But why attack us, because we do believe in prayer?

In any of the those passages is there any mention that we are to pray to the dead?

Certainly not! Wouldn’t that be necromancy, or something?

Luke 20:38
38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him."

It is curious why you think that the members of Christ’s body are dead, especially when He made such a point to let us know they are not.

John 11:25-26
“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

 

[ChrisWRIT]

From Gods written Word we know that Adam & Eve were created by God and that they were without sin and we know from what God has said in His written Word that they then sinned and so became sinners.

Yep. I’m glad we agree. Adam & Eve were created without sin. I note that Rom. 5:12 does not say that either were subject to the contraction of original sin, since for Adam & Eve, THE original sin was a matter of personal sin.

Now we also know from Gods written Word that everyone, all human beings including Mary, came from Adam & Eve and have inherited their sin nature.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

Amen. Romans 5:12 refers to the reality of original sin, do you agree with that as well?

Yes, Mary was human, like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, and NOT because of anything to do with her own merits, she was preserved by Christ at the moment of her conception from the stain of original sin.

Christ was her savior, just as He is “…the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.” (1 Tim. 4:10)

Christ fulfilled the 4th commandment, to “honor your father & mother”, better than anyone else could or can, by preemptively saving His mother at the moment of her conception!

Does God say in His written Word that these people were sinless?

I’m glad you asked. He certainly does. In His written Word! (Just curious; Are you allergic to simply calling it “the Bible” or “Scripture”?)

Gen. 1:9
“This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.”

Job 1:1
“In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.”

God even confirmed this Himself - Job 1:8
“Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Luke 1:5-6
*“In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.” *

Personal sinlessness is not impossible. As you indirectly show in your quotation of 2. Pet. 2.

Now we know from Gods written Word that Jesus was God & Man, born of the Holy Spirit and He was sinless.

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

Amen, again, (although Jesus wasn’t exactly “born of the Holy Spirit”, but was born of the virgin Mary, by the power of the Holy Spirit.)

This passage is exhorting us to avoid personal sin, no?

But if it is impossible for anyone to avoid personally sinning, how can scripture say we are called to follow in Christ’s steps, which were sinless?

How could Christ have set a sinless “example” to be followed that is impossible to follow? Was Peter wrong? Is Scripture wrong?

I say “No”. The teaching that Mary was free of personal sin is not contradictory to the Bible. Like her salvation from original sin, this freedom from personal sin was not due to her own merit, but to a special gift of grace that God bestowed on His mother.

Now God doesn’t say in His written Word that Mary was sinless but tradition is claiming that Mary is sinless. I’m definitely believing what God says in His written Word.

By Emeraldisle
Now what about you, are you going to answer the question re the tread. Can you tell me why the Bible doesn’t say Mary was sinless?

The Bible does say Mary was “sinless”, implicitly, as has been answered dozens of times, at least, on this thread alone. (Lord knows how many times it has been answered on how many other threads… )

It does not say so explicitly, as with other doctrines. Some are less apparent (like Mary’s perpetual virginity), some more (like the Trinity), but the evidence is there.

You simply don’t like it, so you have rejected the answers.

Further, you are not “just stating what God says in His written Word”, but what you personally believe God says in Scripture.

Additionally, you deny that the Church is infallibly protected by God from teaching error, or uniquely able to interpret all Scripture by the gift of the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ.

When you start with such flawed presumptions, little wonder you think they say different & contradictory things.

The Bible shows that Jesus established a visible, authoritative Church, and promised to protect that church from error, it does NOT say that He would protect emeraldisle (or any of Luther’s successors, or even individual Church fathers or saints who were never successors of Peter) from error.

God bless,

Chris

 

[guanophore]

Here is what the New American Bbile says about Hebrews 12:1:
" [1-13] Christian life is to be inspired not only by the Old Testament men and women of faith (Hebrews 12:1) but above all by Jesus. As the architect of Christian faith, he had himself to endure the cross before receiving the glory of his triumph (Hebrews 12:2). Reflection on his sufferings should give his followers courage to continue the struggle, if necessary even to the shedding of blood (Hebrews 12:3-4). Christians should regard their own sufferings as the affectionate correction of the Lord, who loves them as a father loves his children."

Note that these catholic scholars don’t mention anything about this being a literal kind of thing but as an inspiration to the living here to continue on in the faith in the face of terrible circumstances.

This are all good points, and true. However, Catholic Scholars do not define the doctrine of the Church. This is done by Jesus and the Apostles. Jesus demonstrated that interaction with those who have gone on before us in the faith by allowing the Apostles to witness His transfiguration. He conversed with Moses and Elijah. The Apostles have given us the creed, in which it is stated, “I believe in the communion of saints”.

If this passage is to be taken in a literal sense then you might have a point. However, it seems that John is describing future events about the last days and speaking in metaphorical language.

Please prove that the events described are not occuring in the present.

Explain who the martyrs are, if they have not been martyred yet.

i looked at this and i have a couple of questions that will save a lot of time:
1- Who in the OT ever promotes or speaks of Mary as being an Ark type?

2- same for the NT.

It should also be ntoed that no early church father spoke of her in these terms.

You have it backwards, ja4. The types are in the OT, and are fulfilled in the NT. You may reject the testimony of the Fathers, but it is embarassing to say it does not exist. It makes it seem like you have not read them, or if you did read them, you can’t understand.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. " - Abraham Lincoln
16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

Where does the catholic church claim that the creeds and other writings are inspired-inerrant?

Wherever the Apostolic Teaching is found, it is found without error, whether it is in the NT, the liturgy, the creeds, the prayers, etc…

Sunday worship is grounded squarely on the scriptures as is the nature of Christ.

If this were true, then it would not be possible to form competitive doctrine that is opposite from the same scripture. On the contrary, it is no where stated in scripture that God ever approves the observance of the Sabbath on the first day of the week instead of the seventh. The Trinity is not found there, neither is the hypostatic union, or the table of contents of the scripture, etc. etc. Whether you acknowledge it or not, you accept some of the Sacred Traditions, and reject others.

What “oral tradition” are you referring to in regards to the sinlessness of Mary?

I am sorry, ja4, but you are not able to access this type of revelation.

" The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14-15

We will pray for you, that discernment will come.

 

[bookgirl32]

The problem is that after someone dies they no longer have anything to do with this world.

And show me where the Bible claims this.

Neither does your statement above.

Jesus never taught this but wanted His followers to depend on Him alone because He alone is our high priest.

Well, this would mean that every time you ask someone to pray for you even on earth, you’re going against what He teaches. And He doesn’t teach that.

I’d also still like to know where worship on Sunday has it’s Biblical grounding that you claim too.

 

[bookgirl32]

Christ rose on Sunday, Penecost (Acts 2:1) when the HS came to empower the disciples came on a Sunday. These are the major factors that contributed to changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday worship for Jews in scripture.
In fact i can’t think of another day of worship in the early church either.

Okay, sorry, hadn’t seen this yet.

But. . . none of this tells us to worship on Sunday though, does it?

I realize what the major factors were. The fact is that it took the teaching of a Church to go from “Christ rose on a Sunday” to “change the day of the Sabbath.” If you’re relying on the early Church, then you’re relying on Tradition.

 

[bookgirl32]

Do you consider everyday conversations with your family and friends prayer?

When the people asked Moses to intercede for them it was not about praying to him. I know of no passage in scripture that would use this as a prayer to Moses.

If the definition of the word prayer was “to ask” and not “to worship”, then, yes, it was praying to Moses. You are the one making the definition to worship. They are NOT the same thing.

 

[bookgirl32]

When a catholic prays to a saint that saint is dead. The body of that person is dead in the ground etc. Now, was Moses dead when they asked him to intercede for them?

ja4, is the soul dead? Is the soul what God puts the emphasis on? Do you think it’s impossible for God, in Heaven, to allow people to hear us when we talk to them? We don’t even know what Heaven will be like or what will be possible.

 

[guanophore]

Christ rose on Sunday, Penecost (Acts 2:1) when the HS came to empower the disciples came on a Sunday. These are the major factors that contributed to changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday worship for Jews in scripture.
In fact i can’t think of another day of worship in the early church either.

I agree with you, these were factors in the decision to change the observance of the Sabbath from Sat. to Sunday (in fact, all the Apostles and Jesus observed the Sabbath on Sat). However, this was done by the Magesterium of the Church, in the same way that the canon was formed, the doctrine of Trinity, hypostatic union, and nature of Mary. You are just picking and choosing to accept the ones you are comfortable with, and the ones that seem too “Catholic” you reject.

The problem is that after someone dies they no longer have anything to do with this world. There are just a couple of incidents in scripture of someone coming back as with Moses but this was never used as a basis to pray to him or others who have died.

You have not explained why the saints are called “witnesses” that surround us like a cloud, when they cannot “witness” anything?

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…Heb 12:1

What do you think was the point of Jesus taking Peter, James, and John to witness the Transfiguration? Why didn’t Jesus just go up by Himself? What do you suppose He wanted to show the disciples?

Why do you think people are dead when Jesus says they are alive?

Luke 20:38
38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him."

The idea that thinking the dead can hear us may seem reasonable but it has not basis in Scripture. Jesus never taught this but wanted His followers to depend on Him alone because He alone is our high priest.

No, it is not reasonable, ja4. If they are dead, they cannot hear. If they are separated by death from God, then they have no life in them. Jesus never taught His followers to depend on Him alone. Otherwise, there would be no need for a Church. He spend hours, weeks, months, and years teaching them how to get along with one another, help one another, pray for one another, so that when He was gone, they could strengthen each other. This “Jesus alone” mentality is an offshoot of “Scripture alone” and neither of them is found in the Teachings of Jesus.

Do you consider everyday conversations with your family and friends prayer?

When the people asked Moses to intercede for them it was not about praying to him. I know of no passage in scripture that would use this as a prayer to Moses.

I think this is a problem for you because you misunderstand the word “prayer” in this context. It means to ask, entreat, or plead. It is the same usage of the word that is still used in the formal court system today. You might want to consider broadening your vocabulary.

When a catholic prays to a saint that saint is dead. The body of that person is dead in the ground etc. Now, was Moses dead when they asked him to intercede for them?

No, ja4, this is not the case. Those who are in Christ never die:

John 11:25-26
“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Nothing can separate us from the Love of God, even passing from this world to the next.

If you wish to reject the words of Jesus, it is your perogative. But why do you attack those of us who accept what He said? We answer the question “Do you believe” with a hearty YES LORD, I BELIEVE! What pleasure do you find in maligning our faith?

Is this passage about prayer or is Jesus using this parable to illustrate a point?

Secondly, this parable is about the after life. None of these characters were alive in the world in the parable.

This is the way we are using the word “prayer” in this context. It is a conversation with those on the spiritual plane. Yes, this parable is about the afterlife. It illustrates that those who pass from this world are alive unto God.

 

[bookgirl32]

Huh? Do you have any doubts that the day of worship was Sunday for Christians?

It would be very possible if it was only Scripture you were going to for instruction on the matter. The Seventh Day Adventists sure have an opposing opinion, where do you think they got it?

The resurrection of Christ was evenually the basis for worship on Sundays. It was such a powerful event that it changed the way Christian thought of as a day of worship.

The argument is not that this is true or not. We both believe it is. The argument is that you got this from Tradition, not the Bible. The Bible has NO command to make Sunday the Lord’s day, anywhere.

 

[sandusky]

jmcrae:

This verse is referring to Christ; not to the Bible. Christ is the Word of God. The Bible is a narrative about Him; it isn’t actually Him.

bookgirl32:

I tried pointing this out too, and got "where in the Bible . . . "

Context and grammar, please.

The word of God in Heb 4:12 is the written word,, ho logos tou Theou, it’s in the genitive, or possessive, and it is referred to in v2 as, …the good news preached to us, just as they also had. Furthermore, the chapter continues with quotes from the OT.

And so, the word of God is living:**Acts 7:38

“This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received LIVING oracles logion, a divine utterance (words)] to pass on to you.

Romans 3:2

Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles logion, a divine utterance (words)] of God.

Hebrews 5:12

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles logion, a divine utterance (words)] of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.**The word of God is active:**1 Thessalonians 2:13

For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the WORD OF GOD logon, a “word" (embodying an idea), “statement,” or “speech”] which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the WORD OF GOD, which also performs its work in you who believe.

Romans 10:17

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word rheima a word, or, the matter] of Christ.**The word of God in Heb 4:12 is not Christ. :nope:

 

[LilyM]

Context and grammar, please.

The word of God in Heb 4:12 is the written word,, ho logos tou Theou, it’s in the genitive, or possessive, and it is referred to in v2 as, …the good news preached to us, just as they also had. Furthermore, the chapter continues with quotes from the OT.

And so, the word of God is living:Acts 7:38

“This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received LIVING oracles logion, a divine utterance (words)] to pass on to you.

Romans 3:2

Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles logion, a divine utterance (words)] of God.

Hebrews 5:12

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles logion, a divine utterance (words)] of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.The word of God is active:1 Thessalonians 2:13

For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the WORD OF GOD logon, a “word" (embodying an idea), “statement,” or “speech”] which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the WORD OF GOD, which also performs its work in you who believe.

Romans 10:17

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word rheima a word, or, the matter] of Christ.The word of God in Heb 4:12 is not Christ. :nope:

Oracles can also refer to persons. The famous Oracle of Delphi in ancient Greece was a priestess of the god Apollo.

 

[bookgirl32]

Context and grammar, please.

The word of God in Heb 4:12 is the written word,, ho logos tou Theou, it’s in the genitive, or possessive, and it is referred to in v2 as, …the good news preached to us, just as they also had. Furthermore, the chapter continues with quotes from the OT.

And so, the word of God is living:Acts 7:38

“This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received LIVING oracles logion, a divine utterance (words)] to pass on to you.

Romans 3:2

Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles logion, a divine utterance (words)] of God.

Hebrews 5:12

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles logion, a divine utterance (words)] of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.The word of God is active:1 Thessalonians 2:13

For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the WORD OF GOD logon, a “word" (embodying an idea), “statement,” or “speech”] which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the WORD OF GOD, which also performs its work in you who believe.

Romans 10:17

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word rheima a word, or, the matter] of Christ.The word of God in Heb 4:12 is not Christ. :nope:

The Word in John1:1 is Christ. He was the fulfillment of the OT: the Word made flesh.

 

[sandusky]

Oracles can also refer to persons. The famous Oracle of Delphi in ancient Greece was a priestess of the god Apollo.

Context, Lily, context.