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justasking4
Guest
Thr Scriptures never speak of another “layer” between us and Christ. We can pray directly to Christ without having to have to go through another “intercessor” between us and Him.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
Sure we can pray directly to Christ. We also frequently tend to ask our friends and family to pray for us. Why would we do that when we can just pray directly to Christ ourselves? Why wouldn’t we ask those in Heaven, already perfected and aligned to God’s Holy Will, to pray for us also? After all, Scripture teaches that the “effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much” - who could be more righteous and pray effectually than those in the eternal presence of God?
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justasking4
Guest
Here is what it is said about Mary and her intercessionary powers from IUCUNDA SEMPER EXPECTATIONE (ON THE ROSARY) Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on September 8, 1894Here again you show an exposure to biased and inaccurate opinions as to what the Catholic Church teaches.
There is no Catholic teaching that says Mary is Co-redemptrix, and it is unlikely to ever become a dogma of our most holy faith. Wherever you got that you need to go back and tell them to stick to disagreeing with actual Catholic doctrines.
The same is true for the Mediatrix of all graces, however I have read the statements about it and if you did then you wouldn’t be opposing it because you’d see that properly understood, it in no way conflicts with scripture.
Still, again, there is no real likelihood that it will ever become dogma. Not that I have seen anyway, and I keep an eye on these things. Just because we Catholics discuss something does not mean that it is likely to become and dogma of our faith.
"If in all this series of Mysteries, Venerable Brethren, are developed the counsels of God in regard to us – “counsels of wisdom and of tenderness” (St. Bernard) – not less apparent is the greatness of the benefits for which we are debtors to the Virgin Mother. No man can meditate upon these without feeling a new awakening in his heart of confidence that he will certainly obtain through Mary the fullness of the mercies of God. And to this end vocal prayer chimes well with the Mysteries. First, as is meet and right, comes the Lord’s Prayer, addressed to Our Father in Heaven: and having, with the elect petitions dictated by Our Divine Master, called upon the Father, from the throne of His Majesty we turn our prayerful voices to Mary. Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which We have spoken, and which St. Bernardine of Siena thus expresses: “Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us.”
The last sentence certainly is saying that all graces do come through Mary.
Is this not an offical teaching of the catholic church since it is an Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII?
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guanophore
Guest
Not all Jews did, but Jesus and His apostles used the Septuagint.
You are right, infallibilty can only be applied to actions of people, and since the scripture does not meet that criteria, it is not considered “infallible” as are the Teachings of the Church.
I wonder if you can produce any evidence of what the OT canon was, at that time? I agree with you, Jesus did accept and use the Septuagint. This is why Catholics find it inapproproate to remove books from the canon that He used.
Has it occurred to you, that as an anti-Catholic who rejectst many Teachings of the Church, you may not be the most qualified person to pontificate on what the “chuch has always taught”?
This is why the Church does not attempt to make the types of “proofs” that you do from scripture. Truth is dependent upon what has been revealed by God, not our feeble human intellect.
Sorry, ja4, but this is an imitation restriction that you have created and placed upon the Word of God. In fact, none of the Teachings of the Catholic Church “must be supported with positive evidence from the scriptures”. However, I agree that all of the Christian gospel is extraordinary, all of the Gospel message was whole and entire in the teaching of Jesus brought to us through the Apostles before a single word of it was written down. Placing such an artificial limitation on the Word of God is limiting your ability to access the full Truth of the Gospel. Please do not try to impose these artificial limitations you have created for yourself upon those of us who have received the fullness of the Gospel!
Catholics are very grateful for the written Scriptures, even though we know that our faith is based upon the Teaching of Jesus, and not the NT, which had not been created yet when the Church was born.
I doubt it was unanmious, but it was universal. All of the Apostolic faiths hold this tenent of the faith.
We can trust completely the promise of Jesus to send the Spirit to guide into “all truth” and that the gates of hell will not prevail. I know you have trust issues, ja4, but be confident that Jesus can be trusted 100%. He will not fail in his promises like a lot of people in your life have done.
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justasking4
Guest
This is right and proper and commanded in Scripture. The church is a body of beleivers here in this world and we sometimes need to ask others to pray for us. We grow in Christ when we struggle together in Christ. This principle applies to us in this world.
For a number of reasons:
1- you do not know who is in heaven
2- you don’t know if those in heaven can hear you.
3- Scripture never exhorts us to pray to them but it always exhorts us to pray to Christ.
4- you don’t know if the person you are praying to may be in purgatory. Can those in purgatory hear your prayers? Could they “pass your requests” on to someone in heaven?
This passage has nothing to do with those who have died but is for those in this world.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
Where does the Bible limit the “body of believers” to those in this world only? Scripture teaches that the Church is ONE Body of Christ, in Heaven and on Earth; Eph 2:15-16 - *by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. *
Eph 4:4 - *There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
*
According to Scripture, I’m certain that Mary is. Moses, Elijah, Stephen…quite a few of 'em.
Saints in Heaven do not have the same limitations that we have on Earth:
1 Cor 13:12 - For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
1 Cor 15:49 - *Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. *
2 Ptr 1:4 - *For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust *
1 Cor 2:9 - but just as it is written,
“THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”
God reveals certain knowledge to angels and saints in Heaven;
1 Cor 2:10 - For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
Rev 6:9-10 - *When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” *
1 Sam 28:16-18 Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has departed from you and has become your adversary? "The LORD has done accordingly as He spoke through me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David. "As you did not obey the LORD and did not execute His fierce wrath on Amalek, so the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
Scripture does exhort us to pray for one another, and Revelation shows the saints in Heaven praying for us. Prayer to Mary or Prayer to the Saints is not worshiping them; it is asking or requesting their prayer and intercession. E.g., “I pray thee, brothers and sisters, pray for me.” The word “pray” simply means “ask” and does not mean the person being “prayed to” is being worshiped.
You imply that I ask every single person I know who has left this world to pray for me. For that matter, it is unknown whether Purgatory is a place or a process, or both. A soul in Purgatory is still closer to Heaven than I am.
Really? Where does the passage say that? And again, those in Heaven are not DEAD, they are ALIVE with Christ! More alive than you and I are at this moment!
I have a feeling that a moderator might split this to a new thread since we’re getting away from Mary’s sinless state and more into the communion of saints.
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justasking4
Guest
There is more to this than just thinking they used just one translation. Its also quite possible that He also used the Hebrew version.
i don’t quite follow you. Are you saying that the Scriptures are not infallible in what it says?
I could but this is not the place.
The problem is that we don’t know what the canon of the Septugint was at this time. The earliest copy we have comes from the 4th century.
You can just as anyone else can is study church history to see what the church believed through the centuries. A person can also study what the scriptures say on a given doctriine. It does not require one to be a catholic or protestant to know these things. It has nothing to do with whether a person accepts church teachings or not.
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sandusky
Guest
Yes it does—the living here on earth praying for the living here on earth.
None of the verses you cite instruct the living to pray for the dead.
The verses you cite from revelation do not support your position either.
You first cite Rev 5:8, which begins the theme of the prayers of the saints in Revelation; namely, all of the prayers that redeemed have ever prayed with respect to their final redemption, and the avenging of the wrongs done to them (cf 11;17, 18; 13:7, 9, 10; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6; 18:20,24; 19:8; 20:9).
You cite Rev 6:9-10, which further supports what I’ve just said; those saints are praying for the avenging of their blood, and that alone; they are neither praying for, nor answering the prayers of saints on the earth; neither does the verse indicate that they even hear the prayers of saints on the earth.
Here are a list of the verses in the NASB which contain “pray(ed; ing) to.”
All but two demonstrate that when those in the Scripture “prayed to,” they prayed to God, and to Him alone, with the exception of two verses in Isaiah which state Israel prayed to false Gods.Genesis 20:17
Genesis 25:21
Numbers 11:2
Deuteronomy 9:26
1 Samuel 1:10
1 Samuel 1:26
1 Samuel 7:5
1 Samuel 8:6
2 Samuel 7:27
1 Kings 8:44
1 Kings 8:48
2 Kings 4:33
2 Kings 6:18
2 Kings 19:20
2 Kings 20:2
2 Chronicles 6:34
2 Chronicles 32:24
2 Chronicles 33:13
2 Chronicles 33:18
Nehemiah 2:4
Nehemiah 4:9
Job 22:27
Job 33:26
Psalm 5:3
Psalm 32:6
Psalm 42:8
Psalm 65:2
Psalm 69:13
Isaiah 37:15
Isaiah 37:21
Isaiah 38:2
Isaiah 44:17
Isaiah 45:20
Jeremiah 29:7
Jeremiah 29:12
Jeremiah 32:16
Jeremiah 37:3
Jeremiah 42:4
Daniel 9:4
Jonah 2:1
Jonah 4:2
Matthew 6:6
Luke 6:12
Acts 8:24
Acts 10:2
Romans 10:1
Romans 15:30
1 Corinthians 11:13
2 Corinthians 13:7There is no instruction to the living that they should pray to the dead.
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sandusky
Guest
You’ve missed the point that the Lord was making, and to whom He was making the point.
Be that as it may, the end of Lk 20:38 sums up the point well; namely, that the dead are alive
to God, but they are dead to the living.
That’s why the living bury the dead—they’re dead.
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clmowry
Guest
So you have chosen to interpret alive to Him to mean not alive to anyone else.You’ve missed the point that the Lord was making, and to whom He was making the point.
Be that as it may, the end of Lk 20:38 sums up the point well; namely, that the dead are alive
to God, but they are dead to the living.
That’s why the living **bury the dead—**they’re dead.
So if you are alive to me on earth, I can conclude your dead to everyone else?
Yet I see more than one person responding to you.
I don’t understand your logic.
Chuck
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justasking4
Guest
Would you not agree that the primary issue here is: can the dead hear the prayers of the living here either by audible voice or thought?You’ve missed the point that the Lord was making, and to whom He was making the point.
Be that as it may, the end of Lk 20:38 sums up the point well; namely, that the dead are alive
to God, but they are dead to the living.
That’s why the living **bury the dead—**they’re dead.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
As I said previously the Church is One Body, with Christ as her Head. This of this, by way of illustration: If you hold a pin in your right hand and poke your left hand with it, how is it that you are able to feel the pain? How does your left hand know it hurts when the sharp point makes contact with it?
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justasking4
Guest
Your illustration applies to the living to an extant. Your example for example would not apply to someone else in another part of the world. If i were to poke my right hand with a pin right now, no one in New York would be aware of it.
Those who have died are in “another reality” that for the most past is separated from us on a daily level. The only One Who can “interface” between these 2 realities is God and in some special cases granted by Him would be angels. The only examples that i can think of with humans woudl be Moses and Elijah during the transfigutation. Keep in mind these are exceptions. The rule is: all prayer is to be directed to God only.
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guanophore
Guest
You are absolutely right, ja4. This “layer” exists only in your mind, and for some reason, you wish to impose it falsely upon Catholics.
The Teaching we have from the Apostles is that we are all in communion together, and that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.
Indeed it is certainly consistent with the Teachings of the Church. However, this is not the question of the OP. Are you so fervent in your objection to Catholic Teachings on Mary that you find it necessary to derail yet another thread with your hostilities?
I see that Pixie Dust has fallen prey to your tactics, and encouraged you to derail the thread. Why are you even on this thread, ja4? Haven’t you already made up your mind about the answer to the question? Have you not already posted in many threads that you believe the Marian doctrines are “speculations of men”? What is you goal here?
Don’t feel too bad, Pixie Dust, I fell for it too. This is off topic also. It is one of ja4’s favorite tactics, shotgunning on the threads, derailing topics. In this case, posting blatant misinformation.
In this case, I think it does, ja4. You are not able to have access to the remainder of the Apostolic Teachings because of your hostility toward the Church.
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jmcrae
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Of course they can; they are in Heaven with God.
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justasking4
Guest
Not so. These “layers” are part of catholic doctrine. Look at your church’ teachings on praying to Mary and the saints. Its all there.
This passage says nothing about praying to them though. In fact here is what the New American Bible footnotes say about this passage from Hebrews 12:1
1-13] Christian life is to be inspired not only by the Old Testament men and women of faith (Hebrews 12:1) but above all by Jesus. As the architect of Christian faith, he had himself to endure the cross before receiving the glory of his triumph (Hebrews 12:2). Reflection on his sufferings should give his followers courage to continue the struggle, if necessary even to the shedding of blood (Hebrews 12:3-4). Christians should regard their own sufferings as the affectionate correction of the Lord, who loves them as a father loves his children.
Notice it says nothing about praying to these who have died. It is you who is who “wish to impose it falsely upon Catholics.”
What do you have to gain by this?
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guanophore
Guest
If you wish to do this, why don’t you take it to another thread? Why derail this one?
I know you are very provoked about what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary, but can you not try to focus you resentment enough to follow the forum rules? Meanwhile, I apologize to other thread members for getting sucked into ja4’s anti-Catholic hostility tactics. I fell into derailing the thread, and just reported myself to the mods. 
I think you have mistaken something in the Church Teaching or practice as having come from me. Going back to the OP, the canon of the Bible was closed before the full implications of Mary’s status and ministry to the world was understood by the Church. Sin cannot exist in the presence of the fullness of grace. May be all be so filled!
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sandusky
Guest
Neither do I understand yours.
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sandusky
Guest
That passage says nothing about little children, Mary, or the mentally infirm being without sin.
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jmcrae
Guest
Use your logic. Jesus tells us that we are to avoid sin. He then tells us to be like little children. If little children are sinful, would He want us to be like them, if our goal is to avoid sin?That passage says nothing about little children, Mary, or the mentally infirm being without sin.
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