Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

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jmcrae:
Use your logic. Jesus tells us that we are to avoid sin. He then tells us to be like little children. If little children are sinful, would He want us to be like them, if our goal is to avoid sin?
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Use your power of observation; where in the verses you cite does any form of the word “sin” appear?

You can’t support your claim from scripture, as scripture claims the opposite.
 
sandusky said:
Use your power of observation; where in the verses you cite does any form of the word “sin” appear?

You can’t support your claim from scripture, as scripture claims the opposite.
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Do you believe that Jesus wanted us to become like sinners? 🤷
 
sandusky said:
Yes it does—the living here on earth praying for the living here on earth.

None of the verses you cite instruct the living to pray for the dead.

The verses you cite from revelation do not support your position either.

You first cite Rev 5:8, which begins the theme of the prayers of the saints in Revelation; namely, all of the prayers that redeemed have ever prayed with respect to their final redemption, and the avenging of the wrongs done to them (cf 11;17, 18; 13:7, 9, 10; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6; 18:20,24; 19:8; 20:9).

You cite Rev 6:9-10, which further supports what I’ve just said; those saints are praying for the avenging of their blood, and that alone; they are neither praying for, nor answering the prayers of saints on the earth; neither does the verse indicate that they even hear the prayers of saints on the earth.

Here are a list of the verses in the NASB which contain “pray(ed; ing) to.”

All but two demonstrate that when those in the Scripture “prayed to,” they prayed to God, and to Him alone, with the exception of two verses in Isaiah which state Israel prayed to false Gods.Genesis 20:17

Genesis 25:21

Numbers 11:2

Deuteronomy 9:26

1 Samuel 1:10

1 Samuel 1:26

1 Samuel 7:5

1 Samuel 8:6

2 Samuel 7:27

1 Kings 8:44

1 Kings 8:48

2 Kings 4:33

2 Kings 6:18

2 Kings 19:20

2 Kings 20:2

2 Chronicles 6:34

2 Chronicles 32:24

2 Chronicles 33:13

2 Chronicles 33:18

Nehemiah 2:4

Nehemiah 4:9

Job 22:27

Job 33:26

Psalm 5:3

Psalm 32:6

Psalm 42:8

Psalm 65:2

Psalm 69:13

Isaiah 37:15

Isaiah 37:21

Isaiah 38:2

Isaiah 44:17

Isaiah 45:20

Jeremiah 29:7

Jeremiah 29:12

Jeremiah 32:16

Jeremiah 37:3

Jeremiah 42:4

Daniel 9:4

Jonah 2:1

Jonah 4:2

Matthew 6:6

Luke 6:12

Acts 8:24

Acts 10:2

Romans 10:1

Romans 15:30

1 Corinthians 11:13

2 Corinthians 13:7There is no instruction to the living that they should pray to the dead.
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Lots of research for a something that no one said. Good to see that your reading the bible though…

Did someone say that the living should pray for the dead? We can ask for the heavenly souls to pray for us since they are in the presents of God. The saved souls don’t die, they continue to exist. They are of course alive in Christ.
 
3- Scripture never exhorts us to pray to them but it always exhorts us to pray to Christ.
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Is there one verse that exhorts us to pray to Jesus?

My search of the KJV…on christ and pray

Rom 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Phi 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

Col 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

and on jesus and pray

Mat 26:36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.

Luk 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

Act 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Rom 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

Phi 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now you might find two verses coupled together to give this indication.
 
sandusky said:
That passage says nothing about little children, Mary, or the mentally infirm being without sin.

🤷
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Where does is say she did sin? verse please?!

what no direct answer, amazing!..

the “all have sinned” verse doesn’t work by the way, Christ was fully human. He would be included in “all”. Does your faith teach that he sinned?
 
Sean_Boyle said:
Where does is say she did sin? verse please?!

what no direct answer, amazing!..

the “all have sinned” verse doesn’t work by the way, Christ was fully human. He would be included in “all”. Does your faith teach that he sinned?
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Good point, there is definitely a double-standard here. The Apostles can teach us that Mary is without sin, but it can’t be true unless they wrote in the Bible, “Mary is without sin.”

But we can assume she sinned if there is nothing in the Bible either way, and ignore the other teachings of the Apostles as though they never taught anything orally.
 
Sean_Boyle said:
Where does is say she did sin? verse please?!

what no direct answer, amazing!..

the “all have sinned” verse doesn’t work by the way, Christ was fully human. He would be included in “all”. Does your faith teach that he sinned?
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For you to argue that Rom 3:23, et al., would include Christ as a sinful being, for nothing more
than the sake of an apologetic concerning Mary’s alleged sinlessness, especially when Scripture explicitly excludes Christ from all sin, is to demonstrate the bankruptcy of your
IC apologetic, IMO. 🙂
 
emeraldisle said:
And still you have failed along with all the other posters to give valid biblical evidence for the teaching that Mary was sinless. No wonder you need to go mans ideas to try and promote the teaching that Mary was sinless.
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Ok… I’ll try to type slowly…

There is no valid biblical evidence for the teaching that Mary was sinless.:o

Got it? I think it’s been said here many times

Another thing that’s been said here many times is: THERE DOESN’T NEED TO BE ANY.

Now, unless you can point me to some valid biblical evidence that there must be valid biblical evidence in order for me to believe something, OR point me to some valid biblical evidence that the perpetual sinlessness of Mary is impossible, how about you share some good cookie recipes???😊
 
JA4 said: 3- Scripture never exhorts us to pray to them **but it always exhorts us to pray to Christ. **
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Really? Can you provide just one verse that exhorts us to pray to Jesus or Christ?
** Chime in too Sandusky**
 
emeraldisle said:
Again I say I’m very content with Gods written Word and His truth revealed to us that Mary was not sinless. Mary most certainly is blessed but most definitely was not sinless.
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What evidence (biblical or otherwise):rolleyes: do you have that Mary ‘most definitely was not sinless’?
 
jmcrae said:
Good point, there is definitely a double-standard here. The Apostles can teach us that Mary is without sin, but it can’t be true unless they wrote in the Bible, “Mary is without sin.”

But we can assume she sinned if there is nothing in the Bible either way, and ignore the other teachings of the Apostles as though they never taught anything orally.
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I have one standard by which to measure the truth; namely, scripture.

The double standard is yours; namely, scripture, and tradition. 😉

And, you still haven’t supported your position that, “everyone knows that children, Mary, and the mentally infirm are without sin.” 😦
 
sandusky said:
For you to argue that Rom 3:23, et al., would include Christ as a sinful being, for nothing more
than the sake of an apologetic concerning Mary’s alleged sinlessness, especially when Scripture explicitly excludes Christ from all sin, is to demonstrate the bankruptcy of your
IC apologetic, IMO. 🙂
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So your answer to my last question is, no. A simple yes or no works much better.

Now the bigger question is for you prove that Mary sinned using scripture. again verse please?
 
I find this bit of scripture fascinating:

KVJ

2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:20 Now then3767 we are ambassadors4243 for5228 Christ,5547 as though5613 God2316 did beseech3870you by1223 us;2257 we pray1189you in Christ’s stead,5228, 5547 be ye reconciled2644 to God.2316

G1189
δέομαι
deomai
deh’-om-ahee
Middle voice of G1210; to beg (as binding oneself), that is, petition: - beseech, pray (to), make request. Compare G4441.

This “PRAY” is the context that we as Catholics use it.
 
Sean_Boyle said:
So your answer to my last question is, no. A simple yes or no works much better.
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Here again is my answer to your last question:For you to argue that Rom 3:23, et al., would include Christ as a sinful being, for nothing more than the sake of an apologetic concerning Mary’s alleged sinlessness, especially when Scripture explicitly excludes Christ from all sin, is to demonstrate the bankruptcy of your IC apologetic, IMO.
 
JoeyWarren said:
I find this bit of scripture fascinating:

KVJ

2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:20 Now then3767 we are ambassadors4243 for5228 Christ,5547 as though5613 God2316 did beseech3870you by1223 us;2257 we pray1189you in Christ’s stead,5228, 5547 be ye reconciled2644 to God.2316

G1189
δέομαι
deomai
deh’-om-ahee
Middle voice of G1210; to beg (as binding oneself), that is, petition: - beseech, pray (to), make request. Compare G4441.

This “PRAY” is the context that we as Catholics use it.
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Anachronistically. 😉
 
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