Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[JoeyWarren]

I will use an SDA tactic with the next verse:

taking out the punctuation…

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

By the SDA rule, We are the ones without sin and jesus is the one with the sin…

 

[sandusky]

What a cop out.

But true, or you’d have pointed out that what I said was a lie.

JoeyWarren:

Can you provide just one verse that exhorts us to pray to Jesus or Christ?

Chime in too Sandusky

I didn’t raise the issue; however:**Philippians 4:6

Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.**

 

[Netty313]

I have often wished Mary’s life was more covered in the Bible. I realize, though, that there must be reasons for it. I have gotten to know Our Mother (and Our Lord!) better through recitation of The Rosary. Also through Daily Mass attendance, and reception of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. It’s a daily battle (against Satan) to remain faithful, but one that can be won if you always remain hopeful (and pray like a monk!).

I can’t even for a minute imagine Mary as a sinner. I wish I had a good answer for you, but sometimes the only way one can be answered is by deepening one’s faith. If you aren’t driving in that direction, you will always question something or another.

Jeanette

 

[JoeyWarren]

But true, or you’d have pointed out that what I said was a lie.

I didn’t raise the issue; however:Philippians 4:6

Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

Nope that does not contain the word “Jesus” or “Christ”

Nice try though.

When God is used, the context nearly always means God the Father.

 

[sandusky]

Nope that does not contain the word “Jesus” or “Christ”

Nice try though.

When God is used, the context nearly always means God the Father.

Jesus is God; do you have issues with that?

 

[emeraldisle]

What evidence (biblical or otherwise) do you have that Mary ‘most definitely was not sinless’?

Mary like all of humanity comes from Adam,

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Here again is my answer to your last question:For you to argue that Rom 3:23, et al., would include Christ as a sinful being, for nothing more than the sake of an apologetic concerning Mary’s alleged sinlessness, especially when Scripture explicitly excludes Christ from all sin, is to demonstrate the bankruptcy of your IC apologetic, IMO.

So your truth comes from scripture, but you needed to give your opinion on this issue?

Brillant!!

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Mary like all of humanity comes from Adam,

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

.

Interesting point…

Where does scripture say that Mary died?

 

[justasking4]

Really? Can you provide just one verse that exhorts us to pray to Jesus or Christ?

---

** Chime in too Sandusky**

How about John 14:13-14–
13 “Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 “If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

or Hebrews 4:14-16:
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[justasking4]

Interesting point…

Where does scripture say that Mary died?

Its not recorded in Scripture. In fact the catholic church admits it does not know what happened to her.
The Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the first “genuine” written references to the Assumption come from authors who lived in the sixth to the eight centuries:
“If we consult genuine writings in the East, it is mentioned in the sermons of St. Andrew of Crete, St. John Damascene, St. Modestus of Jerusalem and others. In the West, St. Gregory of Tours (De gloria mart., I, iv) mentions it first.”
St. Gregory lived in the sixth century, while St John Damascene belongs to the eight. Thus for several centuries in the early Church, there is no mention by the church fathers of the bodily assumption of Mary. Ireneus, Jerome, Augustine, Ambrose and the others church fathers said nothing about it. Writing in 377 A.D., the church father Epiphanius states that no-one knows Mary’s end."

 

[jmcrae]

Jesus is God; do you have issues with that?

The Bible never explicitly tells us to pray to Jesus by name, though; that is the point that Joey was making.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Jesus is God; do you have issues with that?

**Do you? **

---

**The context of the usage of the word for God from Acts to Revelations is always God the Father . Otherwise we would not have 29 verses that contain both Jesus and God that seperate the two out and another 65 verses that contain both Christ and God that separate the two out from another. **

---

And the context in the Gospels is God the Father. Except where Thomas declares Jesus his God. Furthermore Jesus never really explicitly declares himself God, does he? He eludes to it yes. But never made a direct statement that he was God. But you believe he is God nontheless.

---

---

---

---

---

 

[JoeyWarren]

The Bible never explicitly tells us to pray to Jesus by name, though; that is the point that Joey was making.

Exactomundo…

 

[clmowry]

I have often wished Mary’s life was more covered in the Bible. I realize, though, that there must be reasons for it.

The Apostles were charged with spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

It is only fitting that our focus be on Him in the Apostolic Tradition and therefore in Scripture.

Mary is the mother of God and has had a unique role in salvation history but she is “just” a woman.

Theological debates about Mary have always been and will continue to be about Jesus.

The Churches teaching about Mary being sinless, is not nearly so much about Mary as it is about Christ and her role as His mother.

For example, from “Ineffabilis Deus”

“Supreme Reason for the Privilege: The Divine Maternity

And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent. To her did the Father will to give his only-begotten Son – the Son whom, equal to the Father and begotten by him, the Father loves from his heart – and to give this Son in such a way that he would be the one and the same common **Son **of God the Father and of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It was she whom the Son himself chose to make his Mother and it was from her that the Holy Spirit willed and brought it about that he should be conceived and born from whom he himself proceeds.“

It is not about Mary. It is about her being His mother.

Chuck

 

[JoeyWarren]

Now since this thread has been thorougly derailed. Let me answer the question: Why does’nt the Bible say that Mary was sinless.

Well it does actually, but the **** poor English translations do not do justice to the that Greek word Luke chose. Kecharitomene.

caritow The root word is charitoo caritow], which means “to grace” which is the primary definition.

ke The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel’s greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.

mene The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. “Passive” means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is “grace” and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that “someone graced Mary,” rather than “Mary graced.” Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied “someone” is God. “Participle,” in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun and there is a continuing state as a result.

You can deny the Greek word all you want but it will not change what the word means. Even “Full of Grace” does not do justice to the word, but Jerome did is best.

So with that in mind, and that Mary was either 13 or 14 at the time Gabriel appeared to her and he was veiwing the final product that would never change then we would have to discern when the Mary was endowed with this grace in full measure.

One then would have examine all of the parallels concerning the Ark of the Covenant vs those of Mary. Only one parallel seems to be missing and that is the how the ark of the old covenant was created vs how Mary was created. Given that everything in the New Testament is found to some extent in the Old, then the only logcial conclusion is that Mary’s pureness came at her creation just as the Arks of the Old Covenant purity came at it’s creation.

Good Day and God Bless.

 

[Netty313]

The Apostles were charged with spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

It is only fitting that our focus be on Him in the Apostolic Tradition and therefore in Scripture.

Mary is the mother of God and has had a unique role in salvation history but she is “just” a woman.

Theological debates about Mary have always been and will continue to be about Jesus.

The Churches teaching about Mary being sinless, is not nearly so much about Mary as it is about Christ and her role as His mother.

For example, from “Ineffabilis Deus”

“Supreme Reason for the Privilege: The Divine Maternity

And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent. To her did the Father will to give his only-begotten Son – the Son whom, equal to the Father and begotten by him, the Father loves from his heart – and to give this Son in such a way that he would be the one and the same common **Son **of God the Father and of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It was she whom the Son himself chose to make his Mother and it was from her that the Holy Spirit willed and brought it about that he should be conceived and born from whom he himself proceeds.“

It is not about Mary. It is about her being His mother.

Chuck

Yes, thank you Chuck. I have always understood that Mary is Christ’s Mother and not the core of the Book. I just thought it would be nice to read a bit more of her life (background), but it’s not necessary, as I mentioned, because I have grown to know her through the Rosary as others can do as well.

Jeanette

 

[sandusky]

Now since this thread has been thorougly derailed. Let me answer the question: Why does’nt the Bible say that Mary was sinless.

Well it does actually, but the **** poor English translations do not do justice to the that Greek word Luke chose. Kecharitomene.

caritow The root word is charitoo caritow], which means “to grace” which is the primary definition.

ke The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel’s greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.

mene The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. “Passive” means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is “grace” and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that “someone graced Mary,” rather than “Mary graced.” Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied “someone” is God. “Participle,” in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun and there is a continuing state as a result.

You can deny the Greek word all you want but it will not change what the word means. Even “Full of Grace” does not do justice to the word, but Jerome did is best.

So with that in mind, and that Mary was either 13 or 14 at the time **Gabriel appeared to her and he was veiwing the final product that would never change **then we would have to discern when the Mary was endowed with this grace in full measure.

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον

The blue word is from the root σῴζω, which means to be saved. σεσῳσμένοι is the same tense as κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitomene; namely, a perfect, passive, participle), only plural.

Therefore, you should agree that those who are saved, according to Eph 2:8, can never lose their salvation.

If you disagree with that, then your argumentation concerning the perfect, passive, participle and Mary’s sinlessness is inconsistent, and you should abandon it as an apologetic.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I have one standard by which to measure the truth; namely, scripture.

The double standard is yours; namely, scripture, and tradition.

And, you still haven’t supported your position that, “everyone knows that children, Mary, and the mentally infirm are without sin.”

You have one standard? No, you have 2 standards. You have a Catholic Bible or a bible derived from Catholic tradition and you have a private interpretation. That is not an objective standard that is an opinion. So now you have measured yourself and found yourself to be lacking since you admit that you are fallable and axiomatically expressing error here.

What part of Luke 1:28 - “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you” do you not understand? If a vessel is full of something good it is elementary logic to take that to mean there is no room for sin.

QED
You are wrong and are just promoting the non-bliblical fundamentalist tradition of being anti-Catholic and obstinate in your sins and lack of faith in scripture. There is not one single verse in scripture that contradicts The Catholic Church simply because scripture is Catholic and its impossible for The Catholic Church to be non-biblical in its teaching and dogma. It’s time to sign up for rudimentary Catholicism class since its clear your logic and your private interpretation of scripture and your erroneous tradition and private opinion is not going to save you.

James

 

[emeraldisle]

There is not one single verse in scripture that contradicts The Catholic Church simply because scripture is Catholic

The Bible is Gods written Word, He alone is the true owner of His written Word.

its impossible for The Catholic Church to be non-biblical in its teaching and dogma.

There is no Scriptural proof for the IC.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading, Proof from Scripture, states,

"No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture."

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
Luke 1:28

.

 

[sandusky]

CentralFLJames:

You have one standard? No, you have 2 standards. You have a Catholic Bible or a bible derived from Catholic tradition and you have a private interpretation. That is not an objective standard that is an opinion. So now you have measured yourself and found yourself to be lacking since you admit that you are fallable and axiomatically expressing error here.

What part of Luke 1:28 – “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you” do you not understand? If a vessel is full of something good it is elementary logic to take that to mean there is no room for sin.

James, Mary’s name isn’t in that specific verse (see the translation of your own Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible), and there’s nothing in the Greek text to indicate a “filling” of grace, or anything else.

The literal translation of kecharitomene is, [the]** one being favored/graced,** so it is a substantive, and functions as both a verb, and a noun in the passage.

Nothing about full of anything in the passage.

CentralFLJames:

QED
You are wrong and are just promoting the non-bliblical fundamentalist tradition of being anti-Catholic and obstinate in your sins and lack of faith in scripture. There is not one single verse in scripture that contradicts The Catholic Church simply because scripture is Catholic and its impossible for The Catholic Church to be non-biblical in its teaching and dogma.

If you read the scripture carefully, James, you will find myriad warnings of false teaching creeping in.

CentralFLJames:

It’s time to sign up for rudimentary Catholicism class since its clear your logic and your private interpretation of scripture and your erroneous tradition and private opinion is not going to save you.

Went to Catholic school, and served as an altar boy, here, many years ago, and for many years.

As a reminder, Ott states that, “…individual Greek Fathers (Origen, Basil, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria) taught that Mary suffered from venial personal faults, such as ambition and vanity…” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Ill, Tan Books, 1974). 203 (are ambition and vanity sins?). The Catholic Encyclopedia states that as well, all the while attributing error to those Fathers who taught that. Ott also states, “Neither the Greek nor the Latin Fathers explicitly teach the Immaculate Conception of Mary,” (Ibid, 203).

Schaff also mentions the different historical oppositions and opinions concerning the sinlessness and IC of Mary.