Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

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justasking4 said:
There has always been the OT books and various writings of the fathers etc coupled with the books and letters of the NT since the very beginning.
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Beginning of what? Most of the NT wasn’t written for decades after Christ.
 
justasking4 said:
Why is my example considered speculation? Answer: there is no evidence at all for it. Apply this same method to Mary being sinless. The argument from authority would not make something true if there is no evidence for the claim.
Secondly, where and to whom did the Holy Spirit reveal this to?
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No, because you do not have a self evident authority and because Jesus nor the apostles nor any church tradition, nor HS revelation gives us reason to entertain this speculative idea. Nor is there any open prophesy predicting this in OT nor any credible evidence in fact or in the person making the presentation whatsoever. Nor does this resonate with other truths.

Mary is defined to be free of sin by the authority of The Catholic Church. That alone is sufficient in and of itself purely on the pedigree of The Church. However, this dogma is also 100% consistent with scripture, it is prophesied, it is revealed, it further explains missing holes in scripture and just resonates with the entire Bible message and with early church practices, traditions and writings. With Mary there is scriptural symmetry from Genesis to Revelations that completes the image of God in both feminine and male forms and the creative act of spiritual rebirth. It is a clear truth that does not diminish God nor Jesus nor contradict anything Jesus ever taught. Mary is prefigured in every single strong OT Jewish woman and leader. Marian doctrine is consistent and axiomatically obvious to anyone with a full faith and wide-open spiritual eyes.

If you can’t feel the correctness of Marian doctrine in every fiber of your being then I am sorry to say that you are still “in the world” and not consciously yet aware of your spiritual family and the amazing depth of true Christian faith. You need to choose to be God’s child and come home to His Church to receive the graces that He wants to give to His Children so they stay in Him.

James
 
Am I to understand that emeraldisle came back but couldn’t answer my question or prove that Mary was human? Is that what I am to understand?
 
Jennifer123 said:
Okay, thank you. I don’t want to derail either - though I am guilty of it pretty often I must admit :o .

I’m interested in the bolded part. In the OT are you familiar with the Ark of the Covenant? 🙂

Edit - I assume you know about the Ark, but I meant have you read about the treatment and meaning surrounding the Ark. Sorry.
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If by it you mean that it “foreshadows” Mary as some say then yes.
 
bcm6987 said:
Hey CentralFLJames,
While I agree (almost) totally with your post, there is one thing you are mistaken about. Father Corapi was born into a Roman Catholic family, left the Faith while he was living life as a “pagan”, and came back to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. He never was a protestant. Unless you are referring to his time as a self-professed “pagan”. Not that I’m comparing our separated brothers and sisters with pagans, no that is not my point at all, just that Father Corapi was “separated” from Christ’s true Church on earth.
BC Moore
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Oops - you are correct. But OMG what a testimony this man has! I listen to him every night at ,midnight on my local AM Radio feed from EWTN. Fr. Corapi doesn’t pull any punches and sees it the same way I do - that we are under massive spiritual warfare and need to start going on offense through prayer and fasting and getting the truth out. 👍

Most people are clueless about how many are going to the grave impenitent thinking they are saved because “they are a good person” and didn’t do any evil. Problem is they didn’t do any good either and that does not cut it with God.

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
There is no predestiny - God calls all to be saved. Just because God knows in His omniscience who will respond does not mean that any of us is predestined. Our salvation is fully our own choice.

Rephrase that question and ask ‘why is it then that famous Protestants who had picked up their bibles, read it over and over from cover to cover and been convinced of their salvation inexplicably over time come to realize they read it all wrong and converted to Catholicism’? The reason is because they were open to Gods universal grace and because they became enlightened and consciously chose the most spiritually rational path to salvation - the one that actually leads to Jesus’ teachings and not to the teachings of men.

Here area few examples of famous Protestant converts:
Scott Hahn Protestant Minister
G. K. Chesterton
Fr Allan Hawkins
Sr Ronda Marie Chervin
Fr. John Corapi (a regular on EWTN)
Fr Graham Leonard, an Anglican Bishop of London
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All Catholics must believe, :De fide
  1. GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)
  2. GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide)
(Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Tan:1955, p.245). :hmmm:
 
sandusky said:
All Catholics must believe, De fide:
  1. GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)
  2. GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide)
(Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Tan:1955, p.245). :hmmm:
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It is true that the Church does approve of either of two doctrines of predestination. Neither, however, are what you believe as a Calvanist.
 
emeraldisle said:
Why didn’t God say in His Word that Mary is sinless?

Surely if Mary was sinless God would have made sure that this fact was recorded in His Word.
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Such a long thread. I scanned through it and didn’t see these verse mention.
Exodus 20:12 Honor thy father and thy mother.

That’s repeated in Ephesians 6:2

The op and other Protestants on this thread agree with us that Jesus was sinless, as Hebrew 4:15 says. Our perfect Jesus honored His mother perfectly. If you wish to imitate Jesus, *you *will also honor His mother. Even if some Christians truly believe, as you apparently do, that Mary sinned, how does it honor her or her son, Jesus, to argue openly on the internet about how you think His mother sinned? What purpose does this serve?

The Bible also calls the Church “the Bride of Christ.” (Ephesians 5:21-33; Revolution 21:9-10) The Bible tells us that Mary is Christ’s mother. (Matthew 1:16, 18 and more.) Doesn’t that make Mary The Church’s mother-in-law? Honor her, for the sake of her Son, your Bridegroom.
 
gardenswithkids said:
Such a long thread. I scanned through it and didn’t see these verse mention.
Exodus 20:12 Honor thy father and thy mother.

The op and other Protestants on this thread agree with us that Jesus was sinless, as Hebrew 4:15 says. Our perfect Jesus honored His mother perfectly. If you wish to imitate Jesus, *you *will also honor His mother.
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That’s still one of the most ridiculous arguments I’ve ever heard, IMHO.
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gardenswithkids:
The Bible also calls the Church “the Bride of Christ.” (Ephesians 5:21-33; Revolution 21:9-10) The Bible tells us that Mary is Christ’s mother. (Matthew 1:16, 18 and more.) Doesn’t that make Mary The Church’s mother-in-law? Honor her, for the sake of her Son, your Bridegroom.
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That argument might change my mind. 🙂
 
sandusky,

I still would like it if you opened a thread on your Calvanist beliefs. The only other poster that I’ve encountered on here who holds those beliefs wasn’t exactly the most open to discussion, by saying that I mean that he wasn’t really able to expound on anything other than to say the same few things over and over. I’d be interested!
 
sandusky said:
All Catholics must believe, De fide:
  1. GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)
  2. GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide)
(Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Tan:1955, p.245). :hmmm:
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Mr Ott’'s work emphasizes sind FORSEEN, not decreed by God. That is the key point.

To quote the de fide Council of Trent.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam’s sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.
 
Yes James you are correct!! A way for us to approximate the Faith and Charity of a person is to look at that person’s “works”. Unfortunately, this concept of “works” is lost on many of our separated brothers and sisters.
BC Moore
 
justasking4 said:
Thr Scriptures never speak of another “layer” between us and Christ. We can pray directly to Christ without having to have to go through another “intercessor” between us and Him.
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Yes, we can pray directly to Jesus without having to go through Mary. The Catholic Church has never taught otherwise. However, it is more humble to go through His mother first, and humility is the beginning of piety.
 
gardenswithkids said:
Such a long thread. I scanned through it and didn’t see these verse mention.
Exodus 20:12 Honor thy father and thy mother.

That’s repeated in Ephesians 6:2

The op and other Protestants on this thread agree with us that Jesus was sinless, as Hebrew 4:15 says. Our perfect Jesus honored His mother perfectly. If you wish to imitate Jesus, *you *will also honor His mother. Even if some Christians truly believe, as you apparently do, that Mary sinned, how does it honor her or her son, Jesus, to argue openly on the internet about how you think His mother sinned? What purpose does this serve?

The Bible also calls the Church “the Bride of Christ.” (Ephesians 5:21-33; Revolution 21:9-10) The Bible tells us that Mary is Christ’s mother. (Matthew 1:16, 18 and more.) Doesn’t that make Mary The Church’s mother-in-law? Honor her, for the sake of her Son, your Bridegroom.
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Thanks for responding to my question.

.
 
emeraldisle said:
Why didn’t God say in His Word that Mary is sinless?

Surely if Mary was sinless God would have made sure that this fact was recorded in His Word.
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emerald,
I believe the Bible addresses this in Lu.1;35.
"the angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be born will be called the son of God.” Mary was free from sin at this moment by the Holy Spirit.
Until I hear a better explanation I’ll go with this one. 🙂

God bless,
jean8
 
bookgirl32 said:
Okay, well add that you your list of yes or no questions:

Does the Bible anywhere claim itself to be our sole rule of faith?
Does the Bible state the word Trinity?
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I’m sure you know that I’m showing you that you can pose a question in such a way to get the answer you want.

No word “trinity” in the Bible, yet the trinity is clearly taught in the Bible.

No mention in the Bible that Daniel, Mary or (insert your name or mine) sinned but the Bible clearly tells us that we are all sinners.

.
 
brandymmiller said:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Thr Scriptures never speak of another “layer” between us and Christ. We can pray directly to Christ without having to have to go through another “intercessor” between us and Him.

brandymmiller
Yes, we can pray directly to Jesus without having to go through Mary. The Catholic Church has never taught otherwise. However, it is more humble to go through His mother first, and humility is the beginning of piety.
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Then why do it at all if Christ alone is more than sufficent?
Secondly, the catholic church promotes the hail Mary more than than any other prayer in the church. I would bet that there are more prayers said to Mary than Christ or God by a long shot.
 
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