Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[Jennifer123]

If by it you mean that it “foreshadows” Mary as some say then yes.

Well, yes. You know kind of where I am heading. I just ask because you need to see that “scripture” as referenced to in the NT meant the OT.

“The New Testament is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed”.

The NT is the OT revealed. The OT is the archtype of the NT. What is in the OT is revealed in the NT.

All these things Jesus preached - it wasn’t new without bearing from the OT. He was a faithful Jew. He was preaching Judaism fulfilled. The Ark of the Covenant held the Word inside it. The heavenly cloud overshadowed it and the Lord’s glory filled it. David leapt for joy in front of it.

It’s just not a coincidence that this parallels Mary’s experience.

In any case, Mary isn’t the only sinless being. Adam and Eve before the fall were sinless. The angels and saints in Heaven are sinless.

Here is an article that may be of interest:
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112fea1.asp

 

[Jennifer123]

Then why do it at all if Christ alone is more than sufficent?

Why should I ask you to pray for me? Why ask each other to pray for our intentions?

 

[justasking4]

bookgirl32;3575468]Okay, well add that you your list of yes or no questions:

Does the Bible anywhere claim itself to be our sole rule of faith?

No, but it is sufficent for everything we need in regards to our life in Christ. It alone causes us to grow in respect to salvation:
…like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
(1 Pe 2:2).

Does the Bible state the word Trinity?

No but it is grounded in a number of verses that clearly demonstrate that it is true.

 

[garysibio]

Its better if you give the Bible references and version so it’s possible to check if what your saying is correct.

Also your response proves the point that the Bible doesn’t say that Mary is sinless and so one has to try and make a vague interpretation of the Bible to support the view that Mary is sinless.

Also the Bible records all the major issues and the idea the Mary is sinless is a major issue and one which would definitely be mentioned in Gods Word if it were true.

The problem is that you have a false view of Scripture. You want it to be a systematic theological book. It isn’t. It is a collectionof books written for various purposes including many which were written to address specific problems that had arisen in the Church. Passing on the truth to new believers was done orally. In his letters St. Paul occasionally refers to what he taught them when he was there.

If there wasn’t a problem with early believers and Mary’s sinlessness, it is unlikely to have been specifically addressed by any of the New Testament authors.

Gary

 

[justasking4]

justasking4;3576668:

Then why do it at all if Christ alone is more than sufficent?

Why should I ask you to pray for me? Why ask each other to pray for our intentions?

Even though Christ alone is sufficent for all my needs, He also wanted those who are in this world to help each other by prayer also. It is a command and an exhortation to pray for others. There are many examples of this in Scriptrue.
What you don’t see ever exhorted or taught in scripture is the idea that you are to pray to those who have died. It is Christ alone Who is our “connection” between Himself and the Father. There is no other mediator between us and Him.

 

[emeraldisle]

Okay at the very moment in time that Paul was actually writing this, the only scripture that existed and was considered to be given by inspiration of God are the books of the Old Testament exclusively. Latter Timothy would be sitting there reading this letter he had just received from Paul knowing that Paul would be referring to the only scripture Timothy knew about, that being the Old Testament in it’s entirety.

Did God not know what all Scripture is, I mean did God not know that He would give us His complete Scriptures. Is God surprised that I have a complete copy of His written Word?

Now when I search the Scriptures that God in His sovereign greatness given me I find no evidence that Mary is sinless but clear evidence that she was a sinner along with all of humanity.

.

 

[justasking4]

Jennifer123;3576669]Well, yes. You know kind of where I am heading. I just ask because you need to see that “scripture” as referenced to in the NT meant the OT.

“The New Testament is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed”.

The NT is the OT revealed. The OT is the archtype of the NT. What is in the OT is revealed in the NT.

Mary is never referenced as an archtype in Scripture.

All these things Jesus preached - it wasn’t new without bearing from the OT. He was a faithful Jew. He was preaching Judaism fulfilled. The Ark of the Covenant held the Word inside it. The heavenly cloud overshadowed it and the Lord’s glory filled it. David leapt for joy in front of it.

It’s just not a coincidence that this parallels Mary’s experience.

I think this is reading into the scriptures what is not there. For one the OT never predicted nor implied that the mother of the messiah would be like an ark.

In any case, Mary isn’t the only sinless being.

Mary was born under the curse of Adam and so was a sinner.

Adam and Eve before the fall were sinless.

They were a special creation while Mary was not. Jesus was the only other special creation after Adam.

The angels and saints in Heaven are sinless.

True but they are not human.

Here is an article that may be of interest:
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112fea1.asp
I’m quite familar with this kind of reasoning and it has a number of problems with it. For one the scriptures never make this connection with her. Secondly, the differences between a wooden ark and Mary counts against this being a good fit. One of the differences is that the ark was made by man while a human being is made by God.

 

[emeraldisle]

The problem is that you have a false view of Scripture.

Gary

The problem is I have asked the question of why the Bible doesn’t say that Mary was sinless and no-one has been able to give evidence from the Bible that Mary was sinless.

However clear biblical evidence has been given to prove that Mary was a sinner like all of the rest of humanity.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

.

 

[sandusky]

bookgirl32:

sandusky,

I still would like it if you opened a thread on your Calvanist beliefs. The only other poster that I’ve encountered on here who holds those beliefs wasn’t exactly the most open to discussion, by saying that I mean that he wasn’t really able to expound on anything other than to say the same few things over and over. I’d be interested!

I’m happy to answer any questions you might have by PM, but I’m not interested in doing it in a “come one, come all” setting.

 

[CentralFLJames]

All Catholics must believe, De fide:

1. GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)
2. GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide)

(Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Tan:1955, p.245).

But I was speaking about the Protestant notion of predestination - not the Catholic understanding. There is “predestination” and there is “predestination”. It depends on who one is talking to. Frankly it is only pragmatically relevant to God not to man all we have to do is choose to cooperate with God, repent when necessary and persevere to the end.

Many good things came out of the error of Protestantism for Catholics (and ultimately for some Protestants too since some will come back to truth). The Church was compelled by the errors of the Protestant to define additional truths to remove any excuse for error. The Council of Trent opposed the presumptuous belief of the Protestant canon (Sess. VI, can. xv): “S. q. d., hominem renatum et justificatum teneri ex fide ad credendum, se certo esse in numero prædestinatorum, anathema sit” (if any one shall say that the regenerated and justified man is bound as a matter of faith to believe that he is surely of the number of the predestined, let him be anathema). In truth, such a presumption is not only irrational, but also unscriptural (cf. 1 Corinthians 4:4; 9:27; 10:12; Philippians 2:12). Only a private revelation, such as was vouchsafed to the penitent thief on the cross, could give us the certainty of faith: hence the Tridentine Council insists (loc. cit., cap. xii): “Nam nisi ex speciali revelatione sciri non potest, quos Deus sibi elegerit” (for apart from a special revelation, it cannot be known whom God has chosen).** However, the Church condemns only that blasphemous presumption which boasts of a faithlike certainty in matters of predestination**.

To say that there exist probable signs of predestination which exclude all excessive anxiety is not against her teaching. The following are some of the criteria set down by the theologians: purity of heart, pleasure in prayer, patience in suffering, frequent reception of the sacraments, love of Christ and His Church, devotion to the Mother of God, etc.

Are you receiving your sacraments frequently? Persecution of The Church through rhetoric does not count as breaking bread in faith and is certainly not an indicator of love of The Church.

… Or are you one of those that believes in predestination in the negative sense of reprobation?

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Then why do it at all if Christ alone is more than sufficent?
Secondly, the catholic church promotes the hail Mary more than than any other prayer in the church. I would bet that there are more prayers said to Mary than Christ or God by a long shot.

Oh good grief JA4! You act like you are some kind of spiritual bean counter and you want to make sure that Jesus get’s His due recognition. If you knew anything about the rosary you would know that there are 5 Our Fathers in each 5 decade set of beads. It’s not a numbers game for heavens sake. If it makes you feel any better just think that Jesus is so much better than Mary that it only takes 1 our father to equal 10 hail Mary’s in equivalent spiritual fire power lol… Sigh… sorry. But sometimes I get a kick out of some of your manner of thinking.

We Catholics believe that Mary is given a special heavenly intercessory role to join her prayers to ours when we petition her that makes our prayers have extraordinary efficacy when presented to Jesus and God.

Try a few Hail Mary’s and see if you don’t get a sudden increase in spiritual IQ and a start seeing things in a new light and get a new lift in your walk in faith.

Mary rocks.

James

 

[bookgirl32]

I’m sure you know that I’m showing you that you can pose a question in such a way to get the answer you want.

No word “trinity” in the Bible, yet the trinity is clearly taught in the Bible.

No mention in the Bible that Daniel, Mary or (insert your name or mine) sinned but the Bible clearly tells us that we are all sinners.

.

Okay, show me where the Trinity is clearly taught in the Bible.

And then answer the “yes or no” question: does the Bible declare itself to be the sole rule of faith?

 

[bookgirl32]

Secondly, the catholic church promotes the hail Mary more than than any other prayer in the church. I would bet that there are more prayers said to Mary than Christ or God by a long shot.

Okay, prove that statement.

 

[adstrinity]

Did you type this message with a straight face? .

Prove to me that Mary is human.

 

[bookgirl32]

No, but it is sufficent for everything we need in regards to our life in Christ. (1 Pe 2:2).

Okay, tell me where it states that it is the ONLY sufficient revelation?

Oh, and also tell me which scriptures Peter was writing about in the passage you point to here.

No but it is grounded in a number of verses that clearly demonstrate that it is true.

Really, they do? Show me those, too.

 

[bookgirl32]

I’m happy to answer any questions you might have by PM, but I’m not interested in doing it in a “come one, come all” setting.

Okay, sounds good. Could you PM me a link to a good overview of the Calvinist view? I can find one here too, I’m sure, I’ve just never gotten one “straight from the horse’s mouth”, so to speak.

 

[bookgirl32]

Hey Emerald, this one too, by the way:

Actually, EI, how do you know that 2 Tim 3:16-17 actually is scripture?

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Did God not know what all Scripture is, I mean did God not know that He would give us His complete Scriptures. Is God surprised that I have a complete copy of His written Word?.

No man on earth can answer that question while still alive in the flesh.

Now when I search the Scriptures that God in His sovereign greatness given me I find no evidence that Mary is sinless but clear evidence that she was a sinner along with all of humanity.

That is because you are restricted by faulty english translations. The Greek word kecharitomene gives great sight into her sinlessness.

Have you ever seen this? IF IT AINT THE KING JAMES VERSION, IT AINT THE BIBLE

If I was to have something similar, It would be this!
IF IT AINT THE GREEK, IT AINT THE BIBLE.

That book you hold in your hands is not inspired word of God.

The inerrancy of Holy Scripture does not mitigate itself to translations.

You cannot provide one single piece of evidence to the contrary.

Did you know what you are reading right this moment is Scripture?

Yes Scripture.

The direct translation from the Greek to English is “Document” The word Scripture is a theft from the Latin which I IMHO believe to be sole domain of the Catholic And Eastern Orthodox churches.

That is why we refer to the Bible as “Holy Scripture”.

The Declaration of Independence is Scripture.

Protestants steal too much from the Latin.

 

[sandusky]

CentralFLJames:

But I was speaking about the Protestant notion of predestination - not the Catholic understanding.

Of course you were.

CentralFLJames:

Many good things came out of the error of Protestantism for Catholics (and ultimately for some Protestants too since some will come back to truth). The Church was compelled by the errors of the Protestant to define additional truths to remove any excuse for error. The Council of Trent opposed the presumptuous belief of the Protestant canon (Sess. VI, can. xv): “S. q. d., hominem renatum et justificatum teneri ex fide ad credendum, se certo esse in numero prædestinatorum, anathema sit” (if any one shall say that the regenerated and justified man is bound as a matter of faith to believe that he is surely of the number of the predestined, let him be anathema). In truth, such a presumption is not only irrational, but also unscriptural (cf. 1 Corinthians 4:4; 9:27; 10:12; Philippians 2:12). Only a private revelation, such as was vouchsafed to the penitent thief on the cross, could give us the certainty of faith: hence the Tridentine Council insists (loc. cit., cap. xii): “Nam nisi ex speciali revelatione sciri non potest, quos Deus sibi elegerit” (for apart from a special revelation, it cannot be known whom God has chosen). However, the Church condemns only that blasphemous presumption which boasts of a faithlike certainty in matters of predestination.

To say that there exist probable signs of predestination which exclude all excessive anxiety is not against her teaching. The following are some of the criteria set down by the theologians: purity of heart, pleasure in prayer, patience in suffering, frequent reception of the sacraments, love of Christ and His Church, devotion to the Mother of God, etc.

Are you receiving your sacraments frequently? Persecution of The Church through rhetoric does not count as breaking bread in faith and is certainly not an indicator of love of The Church.

The main thrust of the doctrine of predestination is not concerned with whether or not one can know infallibly that they have been justified.

The thrust of it, as stated in scripture, is that those that God justifies will certainly never lose that justification.

CentralFLJames:

… Or are you one of those that believes in predestination in the negative sense of reprobation?

I prefer the idea of preterition to strict reprobation. I find it to be more in accord with scripture.

 

[guanophore]

FYI, and in all humility, James, I think identical thoughts toward you, and yours, but, for the most part, I endeavor to keep them to myself because of the nature of this forum, and its rules, and when I don’t keep them to myself, I always state them as “my opinion.”

Perhaps you should start another thread where you can discuss your opinion of the wicked and evil blindness of scripture-twisting protestants.

Just a suggestion.

NO!

Please don’t. Instead let us work on charity together.

:grouphug: