Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[onenow1]

Hi, All

In the old testament God finds favor. In Mary he calls her highly favored one, God didn’t find favor in Mary she was favored, from the beginning.

MY SOUL DOTH MAGNIFY THE LORD. LUKE 2:46

Only purity can magnify the Lord !

Peace, OneNow1

 

[emeraldisle]

That phrase is similar to saying that if I have enough money I can become a great scholar, since I will be enabled and equipped to study whatever discipline suits me at whatever university suits.

But is money the ONLY thing necessary? Of course not. I need at least some natural aptitude for scholarship, I need self-discipline to study hard, I need good teachers, I need loads of other things.

So it is with scripture - it is profitable, sure, but it is not all that is necessary, neither does that verse imply that it is all that is necessary. We just need to look at the number of absolute scoundrels who know their Bible from A to Z to know that much more than scripture necessary on even the most basic of levels.

Neither is it ACTUALLY necessary in any sense, simply profitable (in other words useful). For abundant proof of this we just need to look at the number of early Christians who, without knowing all or significant parts of scripture, which hadn’t yet been written, nonethless were every bit as well-equipped to become perfect as you or I.

Thats a humanists view point, I believe the following;

*But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. John 14:26
*

I do obviously accept that the Holy Spirit works through godly men who are gifted by God to teach from the **written Word of God.
**

.

.

 

[sandusky]

CentralFLJames:

Nothing I have stated here limits in anyway the perseverance of the saints. But I object to the pompous implication that you pretend to know both God’s mind as well as my own. You are in disagreement with Jesus and His Church since you judge both in matters that you can not possibly understand and refuse to obey Christ’s authority on earth - His Vicar.

You can say nothing nor is it your place to say anything. God speaks to the heart. Predestination in the Catholic sense of the word is signally present in the things I mentioned previously - love of prayer, love of Church, love of the sacraments etc. You do not Love His Church nor the sacraments so you might examine where you are with respect to predestiny. Do you think you can change your destiny?

You sound like you are pontificating from a superior moral context without any evidence to lend credibility to your assertions. How do you know? Those that do not partake of the Eucharist nor attend Mass miss out on everything. It seems you subscribe to the strange modern idea of more through the avenue of less yourself. Care to elaborate that mystery?

As I mentioned the signs of predestiny previously mentioned are comforting to the individual soul - as are the inner revelations and fruits of the Holy Spirit.

I have no problem with you using “predestinarians” as a synonym of “the elect” or the “saints” though. But it seems you are focused in these forums more on splitting semantic hairs and the spewing of theological concepts and theories in a self serving sort of way. That is a sign of hubris that is strong marker for predestiny in the negative sense through reprobation. Again I ask, can you change your destiny?

Thank you, James, for your, how did you phrase it, oh yes, “pontificating from a superior moral context without any evidence to lend credibility to your assertions.”

That’s very catchy!

With respect to your question concerning one changing ones destiny, let’s look at your Church’s De fide dogma concerning that.

Ott states, that with respect to predestination, you, as a Catholic must believe the following:1. That God has predestined some to eternal blessedness
(complete predestination).

1. That God has predestined some to Grace (incomplete predestination).
2. That God has predestined the rest to eternal condemnation based upon foreseen demerits.Groups 2 and 3 are predestined to the same place (eternal damnation), because the number of those predestined to “eternal blessedness” is eternally fixed, and cannot be changed; therefore, by default, the destination of the other two groups is eternally fixed as well.

From the teachings of your own Church, how would answer your own question?

Can you change your destiny?

 

[emeraldisle]

Mary is the Mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and remained a virgin - because God can do whatever He wants and wills…

Therefore, how implausible would it be for her, the mother of our sinless Lord, to have been conceived without the stain of original sin? Does anyone think that would be impossible for God to do?

I’ll tell you what, those of you who doubt His abilities…

YOU ask Him!

I know that God is Almighty, Great & Awesome.

God could totally destroy satan right now but God will destroy satan at His appointed time and He has reveal this truth in His written Word.

The bottom line is that God hasn’t said in His written Word that Mary was sinless, even though He could have made her sinless and told us so in His written Word.

.

 

[emeraldisle]

I, and others, have already posted the passages. It is unfortunate that your heart is hardened to seeing this interpretation. It has also been pointed out to you that Jesus left us a Church as well. Many teachings are elaborated upon by the Holy Church, with authority given by Jesus Christ either directly or through his apostles. I am digressing however. Your question is answered fairly clearly in 1 Luke. May the Lord help you to see it there, since you have no visible interest in the teachings from the Church established by our Lord, and the magesterium set up precisely to help us find the true answer to any question perplexing us. I heartily recommend the Church Fathers as supplement. Anyway, thank you for being here, and I appreciate your interest in our faith. May the Lord open you to the fullness of His Church and His teachings.

Peace to you,

Steven

I do appreciate everyone who has made the effort to answer my question. However I have not seen anything posted which shows me that the Bible says Mary was sinless.

I know that a number of posters have said that this teaching is in the Catholic Churches traditions but when I compare this teaching with what God says in His written Word it is proved to be false.

.

 

[Pier]

Thats a humanists view point, I believe the following;

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. John 14:26

I do obviously accept that the Holy Spirit works through godly men who are gifted by God to teach from the **written Word of God.
**

.

Omigoodness, Catholics aren’t Godless “humanists”, we’re Christians - the original ones as a matter of fact…

Sweetie, you better go back and do some research - you’re preaching to the choir here, but your song is way off key. I’m sure there are some excellent books you might want to read - anything by Scott Hahn would be great I’m sure…

God bless you!

 

[guanophore]

I do appreciate everyone who has made the effort to answer my question. However I have not seen anything posted which shows me that the Bible says Mary was sinless.

I know that a number of posters have said that this teaching is in the Catholic Churches traditions but when I compare this teaching with what God says in His written Word it is proved to be false.

This usually happens because the reader either does not understand the scripture, or does not understand the Teaching but since neither can contradict the other finding one “false” is a reflection of our intellectual or spiritual shortcoming.

On this particular thread, there seems to be a Sola Scriptura premise, which limits the Sacred Teaching of Jesus through the Apostles to the Written Word. This doctrine, however, is not taught in the Bible itself, or by Jesus and the Apostles. It is a new doctrine that emerged in the Reformation, and was necessary to separate people from the authority that Jesus appointed to shepherd the Church.

 

[bcm6987]

We walk by Faith. Faith that Jesus is God the Son (the Truth) and; therefore, cannot lie. To request “proof” that Mary was sinless is baiting us Catholics into an argument. We know that the Blessed Virgin Mary, our Mother given us by Christ Himself, was sinless, continues to be sinless, and will remain sinless until the end of time. It would be interesting though to see you refute line by line the archetypes mentioned previously . It should be easy for you. Although, rest assured that we will not buy your interpretation as it is of apparent human quality. But it will be great for us to read and discuss at the dinner table. Yes 'dusky, we walk by Faith. Even though many men have attempted to put the Bride of Christ asunder, we will continue to believe that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. Jesus told us so, and we continue believe all that the Trinity has revealed to us. So bait us if you want. Just remember, we come from a long line of “stiff necked people”.
BC Moore

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I do appreciate everyone who has made the effort to answer my question. However I have not seen anything posted which shows me that the Bible says Mary was sinless.

Is there any reason why you cannot at least admit that you understand why Catholics believe as we do, without necessarily agreeing? You have been shown Scripture which we believe points to Mary being without sin - not of her own merit or strength - but as a special gift to her from God to make her a fit vessel for bearing Christ in her womb.

I know that a number of posters have said that this teaching is in the Catholic Churches traditions but when I compare this teaching with what God says in His written Word it is proved to be false.

When you compare this teaching to your personal interpretation of His written Word, that is. Just because you don’t see it spelled out in Scripture does not, by any means, make it a false teaching. I don’t see the words “Trinity” or “Incarnation” spelled out in Scripture but I certainly hope you agree that those are not false teachings!

 

[bookgirl32]

I do appreciate everyone who has made the effort to answer my question. However I have not seen anything posted which shows me that the Bible says Mary was sinless.

I know that a number of posters have said that this teaching is in the Catholic Churches traditions but when I compare this teaching with what God says in His written Word it is proved to be false.

.

I have also not seen you be able to show me that 2 Timothy is scripture by quoting scripture itself. I have not seen you be able to show me that the Trinity is proclaimed by the Bible by quoting scripture itself. I have not seen you be able to tell me that God’s written word is His only revelation by quoting scripture itself. You are expecting us to take your argument at your terms, and not following them yourself when we ask you for evidence.

 

[bcm6987]

Quite right, Pixie.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

How bout John the Baptist being sinless?

catholicplanet.com/future/John-Baptist.htm

 

[brandymmiller]

Then why do it at all if Christ alone is more than sufficent?
Secondly, the catholic church promotes the hail Mary more than than any other prayer in the church. I would bet that there are more prayers said to Mary than Christ or God by a long shot.

That you misunderstand what we do with Mary is only natural given your stance on saints in general. We hold that they are still able to intercede on our behalf even after their bodily death because their soul continues to live, since souls do die. Just as we would ask any fellow Christian to pray for us and with us, we ask Mary to do the same.

Look at the wording of our prayers in relation to Mary, especially examining the Hail Mary.

The first part of the prayer is scriptural
Luke 1:28 “Hail Mary, Full of Grace. The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1:42 “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” (We add the Jesus to clarify what fruit she produced)

The second part is our request for her intercessory prayer:
“Pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death.”

We are not holding Mary as the giver of redemption and salvation, though we recognize her as a cooperator in that process, just as every saint who ever died in the name of the faith became a cooperator in the redemption and salvation of mankind, and just as you and I by our yes to God’s call are cooperators with Christ in bringing forth salvation and redemption to all of humanity.

I am asking her to add her prayers to mine, but all of my prayers are directed to Christ and to the Father Who Sent Him. I ask only that Mary carry them to Christ and add them with hers because I know of the special closeness Christ shares with His mother.

 

[justasking4]

That you misunderstand what we do with Mary is only natural given your stance on saints in general. We hold that they are still able to intercede on our behalf even after their bodily death because their soul continues to live, since souls do die. Just as we would ask any fellow Christian to pray for us and with us, we ask Mary to do the same.

Look at the wording of our prayers in relation to Mary, especially examining the Hail Mary.

The first part of the prayer is scriptural
Luke 1:28 “Hail Mary, Full of Grace. The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1:42 “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” (We add the Jesus to clarify what fruit she produced)

The second part is our request for her intercessory prayer:
“Pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death.”

We are not holding Mary as the giver of redemption and salvation, though we recognize her as a cooperator in that process, just as every saint who ever died in the name of the faith became a cooperator in the redemption and salvation of mankind, and just as you and I by our yes to God’s call are cooperators with Christ in bringing forth salvation and redemption to all of humanity.

I am asking her to add her prayers to mine, but all of my prayers are directed to Christ and to the Father Who Sent Him. I ask only that Mary carry them to Christ and add them with hers because I know of the special closeness Christ shares with His mother.

Your last paragraph is part of the issue. Where in scripture do we find this kind of teaching i.e. “asking her to add her prayers to mine”? I know there is none. You have direct access to Christ Who is your Great High Priest and Advocate before the Father. He alone can hear your prayers and answer them. There is no need of another nor is there another “go-between” between you and Christ.
Here is what the scriptures teach about our Great High Priest.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Hebrews 4

 

[EphelDuath]

Where in scripture do we find this kind of teaching i.e. “asking her to add her prayers to mine”?

“[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

 

[CentralFLJames]

Your last paragraph is part of the issue. Where in scripture do we find this kind of teaching i.e. “asking her to add her prayers to mine”? …

JA4, am I hearing this right? Are you saying that intercessory prayer in general is not being scriptural!!!

Prayer life is a Catholic tradition and a way of life. I don’t think you get it - we are a priestly people and prayer is both our principal spiritual weapon and tool. You don’t understand the concept of subordinate mediation.

I can give you many dozens of references. Here are some scriptural references. Original Material Here:Saints and Intercessory Prayers

I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.

1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued from above]

II. God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer
1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
.

Check out the reference for many many many more.

James

 

[jean8]

What about Enoch and Elijah? Did death pass upon them?

It does, In Luke 1:35 "the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy One to be born will be called thw Son of God ."verse 37 “Nothing is impossible with God.”

LU.1:47-48 “ALL GENERATIONS WILL CALL ME BLESSED.”

God bless,
jean8

 

[jean8]

[continued from above]

II. God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer
1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
.

Check out the reference for many many many more.

James

Why do you believe in Purgatory?

jean8

 

[Jennifer123]

It does, In Luke 1:35 "the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy One to be born will be called thw Son of God ."verse 37 “Nothing is impossible with God.”

LU.1:47-48 “ALL GENERATIONS WILL CALL ME BLESSED.”

God bless,
jean8

Hi-

I was referring to Rom 5:12…saying in Adam ALL have died - alluding to Mary’s supposed sinfulness.

My question is - did Paul mistakenly forget about Enoch and Elijah?