Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[CentralFLJames]

Why do you believe in Purgatory?

jean8

The short answer is because I have Christian brothers and sisters there and they are part of my Christian family and because I have both a moral and a charitable obligation to pray for them and help them progress to God.

Besides all that its part of both Catholic Tradition/Teaching and Scripture. You can scan these forums for detailed discussions and read many scriptural references here: Purgatory

You probably have family members, perhaps some even from prior generations, who are in purgatory. You have an obligation to pray for them since they are completely without ability to help themselves and must endure their sentence of mercy-purgation there for however long God judged appropriate. The references I gave you will show that we can help them through prayers.



James

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Your last paragraph is part of the issue. Where in scripture do we find this kind of teaching i.e. “asking her to add her prayers to mine”? …

CentralFLJames
JA4, am I hearing this right? Are you saying that intercessory prayer in general is not being scriptural!!!

Prayer life is a Catholic tradition and a way of life. I don’t think you get it - we are a priestly people and prayer is both our principal spiritual weapon and tool. You don’t understand the concept of subordinate mediation.

I can give you many dozens of references. Here are some scriptural references. Original Material Here:Saints and Intercessory Prayers

I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.

1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

[continued]

James

You have given more scripture than can be handled on a forum like this. The context is what matters in this idea of communicating with the dead i.e. those who have died. You can look at every reference that you have provided and you will not find any exhortation or teaching that we are to pray to them. The context is against this. If you read these passages in context you will find in every case that there is no appeal to pray to the deceased nor to ask them to pray for you.
What the Scriptures are clear about is that we are to pray for each other here in this world but it says nothing about appealing to the dead in prayer. The reason this is not taught nor are we exhorted to is that Jesus alone is our Great Priest in whom is interceding before the Father for us. Only He has the power to do so because of His High Priest office.

Keep in mind that just because someone is alive somewhere does not mean they are aware of your particular needs.

 

[justasking4]

“[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

There is much that could be said about this passage. However, it says nothing about someone praying to a specific person in heaven and asking their requests to be added to theirs.

 

[bookgirl32]

There is much that could be said about this passage. However, it says nothing about someone praying to a specific person in heaven and asking their requests to be added to theirs.

But it would not be completely offbase to say that it could be interpreted this way, correct? Or that it could be interpreted completely different, correct?

 

[CentralFLJames]

You have given more scripture than can be handled on a forum like this. The context is what matters in this idea of communicating with the dead i.e. those who have died. You can look at every reference that you have provided and you will not find any exhortation or teaching that we are to pray to them. The context is against this. If you read these passages in context you will find in every case that there is no appeal to pray to the deceased nor to ask them to pray for you.
What the Scriptures are clear about is that we are to pray for each other here in this world but it says nothing about appealing to the dead in prayer. The reason this is not taught nor are we exhorted to is that Jesus alone is our Great Priest in whom is interceding before the Father for us. Only He has the power to do so because of His High Priest office.

Keep in mind that just because someone is alive somewhere does not mean they are aware of your particular needs.

Pardon me - but “baloney”.

Keep in mind son that Catholics have been around for about 2000 years longer than you have and have spent 100’s of centuries studying scriptures, developing theology and dogma and have baptised and catechizing 100’s of millions and have declared thousands of saints. Do you think you have the pedigree and authority to teach the Teacher? I don’t.

As morally wrong as it is, you are legally entitled to believe what you want to council yourself from your own private interpretation (right or wrong) but please don’t come into a Catholic Forum and try to deny The Church Her interpretation. That’s just plain pompous and hypocritical. The Church has guarantees that the Holy Spirit will lead her - you don’t. Do you think you have a private apostolic succession that is equal to The Catholic Church?

James

 

[Pixie_Dust]

There is much that could be said about this passage. However, it says nothing about someone praying to a specific person in heaven and asking their requests to be added to theirs.

“[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with **the prayers of all the saints **upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

It says that the prayers of ALL the saints are brought before the throne. Funny how “all have sinned” means everyone but Jesus, but “all the saints” doesn’t. I guess non-Catholics have some wiggle room when defining “all.”

 

[bookgirl32]

It says that the prayers of ALL the saints are brought before the throne. Funny how “all have sinned” means everyone but Jesus, but “all the saints” doesn’t. I guess non-Catholics have some wiggle room when defining “all.”

:yup:

 

[CentralFLJames]

It says that the prayers of ALL the saints are brought before the throne. Funny how “all have sinned” means everyone but Jesus, but “all the saints” doesn’t. I guess non-Catholics have some wiggle room when defining “all.”

I think I am going to go make popcorn. This has got to be one of the most humorous and entertaining threads I have ever seen. The bible-christians want to have a duality in semantics whenever it suits them…

James

 

[Traditional_Ang]

That you misunderstand what we do with Mary is only natural given your stance on saints in general. We hold that they are still able to intercede on our behalf even after their bodily death because their soul continues to live, since souls do die. Just as we would ask any fellow Christian to pray for us and with us, we ask Mary to do the same.

Look at the wording of our prayers in relation to Mary, especially examining the Hail Mary.

The first part of the prayer is scriptural
Luke 1:28 “Hail Mary, Full of Grace. The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1:42 “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” (We add the Jesus to clarify what fruit she produced)

The second part is our request for her intercessory prayer:
“Pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death.”

We are not holding Mary as the giver of redemption and salvation, though we recognize her as a cooperator in that process, just as every saint who ever died in the name of the faith became a cooperator in the redemption and salvation of mankind, and just as you and I by our yes to God’s call are cooperators with Christ in bringing forth salvation and redemption to all of humanity.

I am asking her to add her prayers to mine, but all of my prayers are directed to Christ and to the Father Who Sent Him. I ask only that Mary carry them to Christ and add them with hers because I know of the special closeness Christ shares with His mother.

Brandy’n’Miller & Emeraldisle:

The first thing we as Catholics realize is that Those who have “gone to sleep” are already in the presence of God the Father Almighty (I can begin listing Scriptures ad nauseum or this can be accepted), of the Only Begotten Son of the Father, and of His Mother whom Tradition (both East and West - so you can argue with the Orthodox on that one as well) tells us was assumed body and soul into Heaven to be with her Son.

Because these Holy Ones are already there, we believe their prayers and intercessions will simply have more impact, for as St. James said:

The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Eli’jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.
James 5:16b-18 RSV

And, and as is made clear by the Greek in the Angel Gabriel’s Greeeting to the Blessed Mother of God (Luke 1:28):

studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=lu+1%3A28&section=0&it=kjv&oq=Luke%25201%3A26-44&ot=bhs&nt=byz&new=1&nb=lu&ng=1&ncc=1

“And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” (Luke 1:28 DRC)

“Full of Grace” is the same word that is used to describe St. Stephen right before his Maryrdom. See Haydock - haydock1859.tripod.com/id65.html

That could only happen as a result of Mary being at least as full of supernatural Grace as the Martyr, St. Stephen was when he witnessing for our Lord by dying for Him.

The Fathers of the First Vatican Council must have had that in mind when they Defined and Promulgated the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed and Ever Virgin Mary, just as the Fathers of the Council of Ephesus had Luke 1:42-43 in mind when they proclaimed the Virgin Mary to be the Theotokos, “the Mother of God”:

*Elizabeth exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?..”
*
Luke 1:42-43 RSV

The question was asked if Catholic Doctrines can be found in “God’s written Word”. As you can see, they can. And, Not only can these, but ALL of the doctrines, if we are patient and willing to take God at His Word.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[CentralFLJames]

The context is what matters in this idea of communicating with the dead i.e. those who have died.

The context is against this. If you read these passages in context you will find in every case that there is no appeal to pray to the deceased nor to ask them to pray for you.

What the Scriptures are clear about is that we are to pray for each other here in this world but it says nothing about appealing to the dead in prayer.

Keep in mind that just because someone is alive somewhere does not mean they are aware of your particular needs.

The fundamental problem you have here is that you really think those that die are dead. Yet we have Christ telling us in John 11:25 ‘… I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies’. We Catholics believe this. Apparently you do not trust Jesus as His word. Why not?

You also seem to have some negative connotation in “praying to saints” as if it is false worship or something. This means you fundamentally don’t even know what prayer is - prayer is simply communication. We “talk” to our heavenly Father just as we talk to our heavenly family (angles and saints). Our talk to The Father will often also be made in the form of worship (especially when prayed through the liturgy of the Holy Mass). But we do not worship our saints - we only talk to them and ask for their help in prayer since they are directly with God in an ultra perma-pure state and are not in any sin. The saints are available to petition on our behalf 24/7 so to speak where we must rest and sleep etc. When a person on earth needs prayer the most we are often in a stressful situation and can also be in a state of sin too. Both of these things limit the efficacy of our prayer since we get distracted physically and spiritually by our condition. God is not quick to hear an unrepentant sinner but is generous to those that merited heaven. Since are Saints have no physical limitation on time and are holy they can intercede perpetually for us and know exactly what God will permit and what he will not since they are in communion with God.

All the heavenly court are constantly interceding for “the elect” waiting joyfully for God’s Kingdom to be fully manifest. Each new soul received into heaven brings them unimaginable joy as does it God.

It is a spiritual crime to waste the heavenly assets. These are our inheritance and a heavenly treasure that are for “us” to use. Anyone who turns a deaf ear to the Saints is doing themselves a serious spiritual disservice.

James

 

[Traditional_Ang]

It says that the prayers of ALL the saints are brought before the throne. Funny how “all have sinned” means everyone but Jesus, but “all the saints” doesn’t. I guess non-Catholics have some wiggle room when defining “all.”

Pixie Dust:

We rely on a combination of Sacred Scripture and 2000 years of Oral Tradition. By doing that, we have a Church that teaches what has been taught since the time of the Apostles, to all men, in all places at all times - a Church that is One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic - United, Set-Apart for God in the process of Sanctification, teaching the whole faith to the whole man to all men and having unbroken Apostolic Sucession and Doctrine from the Apostles. And, We don’t have 31,000+ different Denominations, most with churches in communities that compete against each other, have little if anything to do with each other, never talk to or pray with each other, or ever work together…

Our Lord taught in Matthew 25 that we would be judged by what we do and how we treat each other. And, the Early Roman Pegans claimed repeatedly exclaimed, “Look, How they love one another!” I think we all might want to consider both of these during this conversation.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Jennifer123]

Hi again-

Would Jesus NOT want us to pray for each other, here or in Heaven? Is there any evidence in Scripture that supports not acting in union with the body of Christ through love of Him?

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; "
1 Tim 2:1

So is it my understanding that this is only acceptable for people on Earth? Isn’t Paul asking us to be intercessors, mediators, for each other?

 

[bookgirl32]

Pixie Dust:

We rely on a combination of Sacred Scripture and 2000 years of Oral Tradition. By doing that, we have a Church that teaches what has been taught since the time of the Apostles, to all men, in all places at all times - a Church that is One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic - United, Set-Apart for God in the process of Sanctification, teaching the whole faith to the whole man to all men and having unbroken Apostolic Sucession and Doctrine from the Apostles. And, We don’t have 31,000+ different Denominations, most with churches in communities that compete against each other, have little if anything to do with each other, never talk to or pray with each other, or ever work together…

Our Lord taught in Matthew 25 that we would be judged by what we do and how we treat each other. And, the Early Roman Pegans claimed repeatedly exclaimed, “Look, How they love one another!” I think we all might want to consider both of these during this conversation.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

You may take issue with the tone of her post, but please recognize the issue brought to light by it.

 

[guanophore]

You have given more scripture than can be handled on a forum like this.

This is GREAT James! You have given ja4 more Scripture than he can even find a way to disagree with! I have to save this post, it is a landmark!

In truth, ja4, you are wrong. This is a Catholic forum, and there is no amount of Scripture that cannot be handled here.

The context is what matters in this idea of communicating with the dead i.e. those who have died.

They are only so in your mind, ja4, because you discount the Apostolic Teachings. Catholics know that death cannot separate us from the love of God. It is the love of God that binds us together into one body, and that is how we know that the departed are “at home with the Lord” and no less a part of His body than we who are alive and remain.

You can look at every reference that you have provided and you will not find any exhortation or teaching that we are to pray to them. The context is against this. If you read these passages in context you will find in every case that there is no appeal to pray to the deceased nor to ask them to pray for you.

Now the burden is upon YOU to prove that these passages exclude those who have gone on before us. Who is in the great cloud of witnesses, ja4? How can the departed in faith "witness’ if they cannot see and hear? Are you afraid of ghosts, and that is why you reject the Apostolic Teaching on the communion of saints?

What the Scriptures are clear about is that we are to pray for each other here in this world but it says nothing about appealing to the dead in prayer.

It is dangerous to add words to the scripture, ja4. None of these passages have the words “here in this world” as you have added. There is also your rejection of Jesus words “He is the God of the living, not of the dead”. Do you spurn the words of the Lord you claim to serve?

The reason this is not taught nor are we exhorted to is that Jesus alone is our Great Priest in whom is interceding before the Father for us. Only He has the power to do so because of His High Priest office.

Unfortunately, “jesus alone” is no more scriptural than “faith alone”, “scripture alone” or all the other divisive methods used by the reformers. Jesus made it clear that He expects us to participate in HIs ministry of reconciliation.

Keep in mind that just because someone is alive somewhere does not mean they are aware of your particular needs.

They will be aware of whatever God wants them to be aware of, just as He allowed Samuel to be aware of what was going on with Saul.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

You may take issue with the tone of her post, but please recognize the issue brought to light by it.

Bookgirl:

The Catholic Church strives to teach the whole truth to the whole man to all men everywhere at all times and has done so since the time of the Apostles. Because of that, no single piece of doctrine stands or falls on its own…

To teach the Catholic Faith passed on from the Apostles, the Church uses Sacred Scripture, the written Word of God, and Holy Tradition, the spoken Word taught by the Apostles and taught and passed on by their successors. That’s how the Catholic Church has remained One while the churches formed during the Reformation have all split and resplit and wouldn’t even be recognized by the leaders who originally gave them birth.

Pixie Dust may have had a point, but it’s lost in the disrespectful and mocking tone of her post and by the massive number of divisions in the Protestant churches which can only grieve and sadden our Lord Jesus Christ.

I just can’t see how talking to each other like that edifies us, furthers our conversation or provides anything but a rotten witness on behalf of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I’m sorry if you feel otherwise.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Pixie Dust may have had a point, but it’s lost in the disrespectful and mocking tone of her post

Might I ask that you read my post with a different tone, I was not disrespectful or mocking. I’m sorry you read it that way.

 

[brandymmiller]

If I was to have something similar, It would be this!
IF IT AINT THE GREEK, IT AINT THE BIBLE.

That very statement was one of the things that caused the king james version to be produced in the first place, fyi.

 

[brandymmiller]

I think I am going to go make popcorn. This has got to be one of the most humorous and entertaining threads I have ever seen. The bible-christians want to have a duality in semantics whenever it suits them…

James

James -

I should hope that we are all bible Christians, since we all proclaim the Good News and we all refer to the Bible as a source of both guidance and teaching. Let us be humble of heart and gentle of tongue that what we say may reach our brothers and sisters as the gentle rain and the softened sun reaches the parched earth and helps the seed to grow but the hard rain and the scorching heat of the sun burn and wash away the little seed that tried to grow.

 

[brandymmiller]

I do appreciate everyone who has made the effort to answer my question. However I have not seen anything posted which shows me that the Bible says Mary was sinless.

I know that a number of posters have said that this teaching is in the Catholic Churches traditions but when I compare this teaching with what God says in His written Word it is proved to be false.

.

You must have missed my post on this, as neither you nor anyone else responded to it. I’ll repost here.
The Gospel of Luke was originally written in greek, penned by Luke the Physician who worked closely with and traveled with Paul. Luke 1:28 “And coming to her, he said, 'Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.”

Full of grace is actually a fairly poor translation, a pale comparison to what was actually stated. The greek word used in the greeting was kecharitomene. Ke is a prefix which denotes something that happened in the past and the result is being viewed presently. Charitoo is a verb meaning to grace. So by this we have that Mary was given her grace in the past and still carries it with her. Mene is a suffix, indicating that Mary was the passive recipient of this grace from someone else. She was not the giver of the grace, but the recipient.

The angel Gabriel greeted her using kecharitomene instead of her name, thus he was addressing her as this. In doing so, he was calling her by her primary attribute, much as I might say to someone, “Hello, beautiful!”. Her primary attribute was Grace. Notice that in the Bible God always renames people when He calls them to a new life. He renamed Abram and Sarai to Abraham and Sarah. He renamed Jacob to Israel. He renamed Symon to Peter. He renamed Mary to Kecharitomene - and she identified herself as being The Immaculate Conception during an apparition to one of the saints.

Furthermore, Luke was not one of the original 12 apostles writing about this from first hand experience. He was a disciple of Paul’s, and had been taught by Paul who in turn had been taught by the apostles. Therefore, we can see in this way that the teaching of the Immaculate Conception was a widespread and accepted teaching even so early as this.

The matter wasn’t declared an official dogma until later, not because it hadn’t always been a teaching of the Church, but because there were those who began to dispute its accuracy. That she was born without sin didn’t stop her from being able to chose sin - after all, Eve was created without sin but still chose to sin - but because she was also full of grace she was kept free from sin so that she could be worthy of being Christ’s mother.

Think about this for a moment: God gave very specific instructions on the creation of the ark of the covenant. He had specific materials He wanted used, only the finest and the best of the best. This ark was to be a pure and holy vessel, containing three things: the stone tablets holding the law, the staff of Moses’ authority, and the Manna which was the Bread in the desert. Even Moses could not enter the Holy of Holies where the Lord came to dwell.

If He took such care with holy objects, why wouldn’t He have taken even more care to ensure that He created a woman fitting for the Word Incarnate, the King of Kings who carries the Rod of Iron, and the Bread of Life to live in for 9 months? The greek word episkiazo, meaning overshadow, is used only twice in the entire Bible - once in describing how the Lord came to live in the Ark of the Covenant and once again when it talks about the Holy Spirit working within Mary to conceive Christ. This makes Mary the Ark of the New Covenant.

Romans 6:6 “We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin.”

When we are baptized, we die to our old selves.

Romans 12: 4-5 “For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function, so we, though many are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another.”

We are reborn as cells in the Body of Christ. Where was this body formed?

Luke 1: 30-31 "Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.”

Therefore, as members of the Body of Christ we gain Mary as our mother.

Furthermore, Paul shows us that Mary was Immaculate when he speaks about our new mother.

Galatians 4: 31 “Therefore, brothers, we are children not of the slave woman but of the freeborn woman.”

Mary is the freeborn woman to whom we are born.

The slavery he was speaking of was the slavery of sin.

Galatians 4:8 “At a time when you did not know God, you became slaves to things that by nature are not gods; but now you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, and how can you turn back again to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again?”

 

[guanophore]

Your last paragraph is part of the issue. Where in scripture do we find this kind of teaching i.e. “asking her to add her prayers to mine”? I know there is none.

It is right next to the verse that says “the Bible is the final rule in matters of faith and morals”.

You have direct access to Christ Who is your Great High Priest and Advocate before the Father. Hebrews 4

Indeed, our great high priest is very generous in allowing us to participate in His ministry of reconciliation and intercession.

You have not answered by previous questions on this matter, which have been posted to you for a year and a half now:

1. “He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.” Mark 12:26-27

Who is Jesus saying is wrong, and what are they wrong about?

1. “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us…” Heb 12:1

Who is in this “cloud”? (hint = see chap. 11)

1. How can one be a “witness” if one is not aware of what is going on?
2. “…we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” 2 Cor 5:8

Why does the Apostle seem to think he will be “with the Lord” when he leaves his physical body?

1. How is it that Samuel, Moses, and Elijah were able to interact with people here on earth, and were aware of events here?
2. Why do you reject the Apostles Creed?

If you don’t wish to ask the saints to add their prayers to yours, that is certainly your perogative. Why do you malign others for doing so? How does this somehow impeded your faith, or ours?