Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[sandusky]

TraditionAng:

Pixie Dust may have had a point, but it’s lost in the disrespectful and mocking tone of her post and by the massive number of divisions in the Protestant churches which can only grieve and sadden our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your statement begs the question, and, IMO, shows a lack of understanding of what Christ’s church is, and who belongs to it.

The Lord prayed to the Father for unity in his church, and the Father always hears and answers the prayers of the Son. Paul echos that truth:**Ephesians 4:4-6

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;

one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.**The report of divisions is not surprising to Paul, and if divisions are not surprising to Paul, they are, most certainly, not surprising to the Lord:**1 Corinthians 1:10

Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19

For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it [the report of divisions].

For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.**Paul’s teaching is that, "there must be factions…," so that, the body of Christ may be tested, thereby making evident those who are true and faithful to God’s word as taught through the prophets and apostles, and those who are not (cf 1 Thess 2:4; 2 Cor 2:9).

Therefore, there is no reason for worry, or concern about visible divisions among “the church.”

That is because no divisions exist among Christ’s true spiritual body—the descendants of Abraham through faith alone (Gal 3:7, 9, 14).

You won’t find that truth in tradition/Tradition, but it is in the written word of God.

 

[brandymmiller]

No, we aren’t suprised in the Church by divisions either as we recognize that Christ called us, but we are all sinners and it is in our nature to quarrel with one another because it is in our nature to want to have our own way and to not want to follow a leader, however just and righteous the leader may be.

However, we are called to put aside our old nature and adopt a new nature, one of unity, obedience, self-giving, and love.

1 Philippians 2:1-8
If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compasison and mercy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing. Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests but [also] everyone for those of others. Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ jesus, Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Might I ask that you read my post with a different tone, I was not disrespectful or mocking. I’m sorry you read it that way.

I thought it was fine and without being disrespectful highlighted the double standard of those that were promoting a false teaching.

James

 

[garysibio]

Then why do it at all if Christ alone is more than sufficent?
Secondly, the catholic church promotes the hail Mary more than than any other prayer in the church. I would bet that there are more prayers said to Mary than Christ or God by a long shot.

While I doubt the veracity of your comments regarding the ‘‘Hail Mary,’’ why would promoting the prayer be a problem for you? Do you not realize that the first half of the prayer is taken directly from Scripture? Are we to avoid quoting Scripture now? The remainder of the prayer consists of asking Mary to pray for us. Is it wrong to ask someone to pray for us?

Gary

 

[garysibio]

The bottom line is that God hasn’t said in His written Word that Mary was sinless, even though He could have made her sinless and told us so in His written Word.

The bottom line is that God didn’t have to spell out the Immaculate Conception in Scripture:

1. Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine invented by Martin Luther. It is not only absent from Scripture, it contradicts Scripture.
2. There are facts given to us in Scripture which only make sense if you accept the Immaculate Conception as true. One of these is that Mary is ‘full of grace.’’
3. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception does not have to be fully spelled out in Scripture. Other doctrines, such as the triune nature of God and the incarnation of Jesus are true despite not being fully laid out in Scripture to the point that they were also contested by doubters.
4. Jesus told the apostles to form a Church to which would be given the task of spreading His truth. Never did He command them to commit anything to writing. He also wrote nothing Himself except for a couple of words He scratched in the dirt in John 8.

Gary

 

[CentralFLJames]

James -

I should hope that we are all bible Christians, since we all proclaim the Good News and we all refer to the Bible as a source of both guidance and teaching. Let us be humble of heart and gentle of tongue that what we say may reach our brothers and sisters as the gentle rain and the softened sun reaches the parched earth and helps the seed to grow but the hard rain and the scorching heat of the sun burn and wash away the little seed that tried to grow.

Point taken where it applies.

But I must correct that there is only one Good News - not a legion of truths with different flavors. Catholics do not refer to the Bible as the source of both guidance and teaching - we refer to The Church for our teaching.

The Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit and was discerned and assembled by The Catholic Church to benefit The Catholic Church in her liturgy and in her teaching. It was never intended to be a self-help or do-it-yourself instruction manual for private interpretation nor a means for each person outside the Catholic Church to roll their own salvation theology. This is the very error that gave us the abomination of 30,000+ separate Protestant sects (and accelerating) that none of the apostles would likely recognize. This fact can no longer be sugar coated. Rejection of Catholic ecclesiastical authority is a rejection of Christ.

As an apostolic people we are called to correct the false teachers who cast wild seed. Even weeds appear good and green in the young root. But those in grave sin (those that consciously reject The Catholic Church) can do no good no matter what their imagined intentions. A sower of weeds serves neither The Church nor God.

James

 

[garysibio]

You have given more scripture than can be handled on a forum like this. The context is what matters in this idea of communicating with the dead i.e. those who have died. You can look at every reference that you have provided and you will not find any exhortation or teaching that we are to pray to them. The context is against this. If you read these passages in context you will find in every case that there is no appeal to pray to the deceased nor to ask them to pray for you.
What the Scriptures are clear about is that we are to pray for each other here in this world but it says nothing about appealing to the dead in prayer. The reason this is not taught nor are we exhorted to is that Jesus alone is our Great Priest in whom is interceding before the Father for us. Only He has the power to do so because of His High Priest office.

Keep in mind that just because someone is alive somewhere does not mean they are aware of your particular needs.

Scripture is quite clear that those in Heaven are aware of what is taking place on Earth. After going through a roster of Old Testament saints, the author of the Letter to the Hebrews refers to them as a cloud of witnesses. A witness is someone who sees what is going on.

In Rev 6:9-10 we see that those who have been martyred are aware that God has not yet acted against their persecutors who are still on Earth.

So yes, somehow those in Heaven are aware of what is happening on Earth.

Gary

 

[guanophore]

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;

one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

[/indent]The report of divisions is not surprising to Paul, and if divisions are not surprising to Paul, they are, most certainly, not surprising to the Lord:**1 Corinthians 1:10

Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19

For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it [the report of divisions].

For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.**Paul’s teaching is that, "there must be factions…," so that, the body of Christ may be tested, thereby making evident those who are true and faithful to God’s word as taught through the prophets and apostles, and those who are not (cf 1 Thess 2:4; 2 Cor 2:9).

Therefore, there is no reason for worry, or concern about visible divisions among “the church.”

That is because no divisions exist among Christ’s true spiritual body—the descendants of Abraham through faith alone (Gal 3:7, 9, 14).

You won’t find that truth in tradition/Tradition, but it is in the written word of God.

I see you have added the word “alone” to the biblical text. You are a true credit to your spritual ancestor, Luther.

In fact, what you have quoted above from the Scripture is Tradition, of which the written word of God is in entirety.

You have this text BECAUSE of that unity, and that Tradition.

 

[bookgirl32]

Might I ask that you read my post with a different tone, I was not disrespectful or mocking. I’m sorry you read it that way.

I didn’t think your tone was inappropriate either, I just didn’t want the point of your post to be missed by those you were speaking to.

 

[bookgirl32]

I see you have added the word “alone” to the biblical text. You are a true credit to your spritual ancestor, Luther.

Realize then that it is those who have faith who are children of Abraham.

Consequently, those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham who had faith.

that the blessing of Abraham might be extended to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Hmmmm . . . yeah, don’t see “alone”.

 

[brandymmiller]

But those in grave sin (those that consciously reject The Catholic Church) can do no good no matter what their imagined intentions. A sower of weeds serves neither The Church nor God.

James

James -

Be careful in your zealousness for the faith, brother, that while you are spreading the truth of our Catholic heritage that you do not overreach your intended goal. I know many Protestants who are both good and holy. I would vouch for them at the very foot of the throne of God. And I, when I was in grave sin, did many good things though I did many that were not good as well. I still sought God, but I did not know how to reach Him. There is no teaching of the Catholic Church that states that it is not possible to do good when you are in a state of mortal sin. Moreover, many of these Protestant brethren aren’t even in a state of mortal sin as they DO NOT KNOW that what they do is a sin, and it is a requirement for being in mortal sin that you know it is sinful and do it anyway. They have been raised to believe that we are the sinners, conditioned to accept that the teachings of the Church are false, that we worship idols, that we do many things which we know are not true.

It is good to defend the Bride of Christ, it is good to use all means of reason and of loving discourse to attempt to persuade others in matters of truth. However, do not make more of their error than there is; see it for what it really is and by example of loving care for truth and righteousness help them to embrace the truth. Christ never condemned the sinner, just the sin. He sat and ate with the ones who were lost to society, and formed relationships. It is in the context of a relationship that conversion takes place, first in the heart and only later in the mind. People will never care how much you know until they know how much you care. They will reject those who reject them, even if those who rejected them have awesome things to say and to show them. No one but the greatest saints find it easy to listen to wisdom if the vessel it comes out of is full of anger and harsh words for who they are and where they are now.

 

[jmcrae]

James -

Be careful in your zealousness for the faith, brother, that while you are spreading the truth of our Catholic heritage that you do not overreach your intended goal. I know many Protestants who are both good and holy. I would vouch for them at the very foot of the throne of God.

These holy men and women do not consciously reject the Catholic Church, however. It is conscious rejection of the Catholic Church that renders one’s works to be worthless. Someone who is following Jesus with his or her utmost being, but is simply unaware that the Catholic Church is the one Christ founded and wants us to be members of, would certainly not be condemned, since as you point out, they are not aware of their sin.

But someone who knows the Church to be that which was founded by Christ and that which continues to be guided and protected by the Holy Spirit and rejects it anyway, for reasons of convenience or reasons of pride, is on the fast-track to Hell.

 

[Mach1Man]

Did Christ sin?

that was a short argument…

This is a ridicules argument, Christ is God, therefore not capable of sin, Mary and you and I are human and subject to sinning.

 

[jmcrae]

This is a ridicules argument, Christ is God, therefore not capable of sin, Mary and you and I are human and subject to sinning.

To be human is to be created in the image and likeness of God. Humanity was originally created perfect and without the requirement to sin. Our redemption in Christ has restored us to that original perfection - we, too, are not required to sin.

Humans alone can sin, but it is not “human” to sin. Sin is a defect; it’s not part of the original design. Our goal is to become what God designed us to be - perfect and without sin.

 

[brandymmiller]

These holy men and women do not consciously reject the Catholic Church, however. It is conscious rejection of the Catholic Church that renders one’s works to be worthless. QUOTE]

Perhaps this is my ignorance speaking here, but I was not aware that there was ever a time when one’s good works were worthless, or that God did not count them. If that were the case, then how could we ever repent and return, since our repentance would be worthless? Please enlighten me, that I may understand. On judgement day, doesn’t God count both our good works and our bad, before making the final judgement? If so, then logically our good works are not worthless, they may simply not be enough to balance the evil we have done when we turned away from Him.

 

[LilyM]

Perhaps this is my ignorance speaking here, but I was not aware that there was ever a time when one’s good works were worthless, or that God did not count them. If that were the case, then how could we ever repent and return, since our repentance would be worthless? Please enlighten me, that I may understand. On judgement day, doesn’t God count both our good works and our bad, before making the final judgement? If so, then logically our good works are not worthless, they may simply not be enough to balance the evil we have done when we turned away from Him.

Matthew 7:22-23:

“On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.”

Oh no, our works most certainly won’t all be counted in our favour, though of course it doesn’t mean none of them will. And repentance, in Catholic theology, itself comes from the grace of God and the promptings of the Holy Spirit and isn’t a work of our own, although we can do good and meritorious works after repentance, of course.

 

[jmcrae]

Perhaps this is my ignorance speaking here, but I was not aware that there was ever a time when one’s good works were worthless, or that God did not count them. If that were the case, then how could we ever repent and return, since our repentance would be worthless? Please enlighten me, that I may understand. On judgement day, doesn’t God count both our good works and our bad, before making the final judgement? If so, then logically our good works are not worthless, they may simply not be enough to balance the evil we have done when we turned away from Him.

That’s not how it works. This is real life; not public school - we aren’t being graded “on the curve,” where being better than most of the people in your generation means you’re going to Heaven, nor by percentage, where doing 51% good and 49% bad merits Heaven, but 51% bad means Hell.

Rather, God is going to be judging us according to our faithfulness to Him. Insofar as our faith inspires us to do good works (such as repenting for our sins and going to Confession) these good works “count,” since they build up our faith, but if our good works are done for false or faithless reasons, then they receive their appropriate reward here on the earth, and mean nothing in the afterlife.

 

[justinthemartyr]

isn’t there a verse that deals with this? It says something to the effect of the jewels in our crown that we will receive, representing our faithfulness to God and doing His will?

 

[brandymmiller]

Oh no, our works most certainly won’t all be counted in our favour, though of course it doesn’t mean none of them will. And repentance, in Catholic theology, itself comes from the grace of God and the promptings of the Holy Spirit and isn’t a work of our own, although we can do good and meritorious works after repentance, of course.

Thank you for the clarification, Lily.

 

[brandymmiller]

Paul tells us: “For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality” (Rom. 2:6–11; cf. Gal. 6:6–10).