Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[CentralFLJames]

James -

Be careful in your zealousness for the faith, brother, that while you are spreading the truth of our Catholic heritage that you do not overreach your intended goal. I know many Protestants who are both good and holy. I would vouch for them at the very foot of the throne of God. And I, when I was in grave sin, did many good things though I did many that were not good as well. I still sought God, but I did not know how to reach Him. There is no teaching of the Catholic Church that states that it is not possible to do good when you are in a state of mortal sin.
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jmcrae;3582557:

These holy men and women do not consciously

reject the Catholic Church, however. It is conscious rejection of the Catholic Church that renders one’s works to be worthless.

Perhaps this is my ignorance speaking here, but I was not aware that there was ever a time when one’s good works were worthless, or that God did not count them. If that were the case, then how could we ever repent and return, since our repentance would be worthless? Please enlighten me, that I may understand. On judgement day, doesn’t God count both our good works and our bad, before making the final judgement? If so, then logically our good works are not worthless, they may simply not be enough to balance the evil we have done when we turned away from Him.

I didn’t want to say it publicly Brandy but I don’t think you know your catechism perfectly well enough to be publicly telling other Catholics that that they have it all wrong. Next time please PM me and we can talk about it since I don’t want to hijack this thread. Nor do I really want to accept the invitation to play the “good-cop bad-cop” routine with you so you can prosetylize in the role of good cop at my expense as the bad-cop; although I might be willing to go along with it some if I though the principal antagonists here were sincere in learning the truth and might convert.

Also, unlike you I’d never pretend to know a person’s soul enough to vouch for them before the throne of God as good nor bad (ref. your prior post) as you offered to do for your “holy” protestant friends. But I’d recommend you leave that to Jesus since some are definitely naive to the errors of their faith - but ignorance nor a non-sacramental faith does not make a person holy - only less responsible for any sin held by God in-fact.

There are definitely committed anti-catholics lurking in this forum with no other agenda other than to convert Catholics to the error of protestantism - against God’s law as well as forum rules. So I’d like to reciprocate the cautionary to you and recommend you be careful you don’t pander so far that you become personally responsible for letting others think that any religion is as good as another. That would be a grave sin for a Catholic since you know the truth about that.

As for your assertion that the church does not teach that one in mortal sin can do no good please go back to the old Baltimore Catechism to see that in fact there is such a teaching. Well, technically I probably should have phrased is as “cannot merit any supernatural reward for good deeds performed”. I was stating from the position of the sinful person not others; God can certainly will that a greater good come out of even the most obdurate evil. However, I admit that the church also teaches that God can reward good deeds to those in a state of mortal sin, even if not worthy of supernatural reward, by giving the grace of repentance. But again, unless the person responds to the grace and repents this person can do no supernatural good for themselves until they confess their sins. So through a paradox of semantics we both are “sort of right” since responding to repentant grace is considered a virtuous act of good.

Ref:Baltimore Catechism

1. Q. How many kinds of actual sin are there?
   A. There are two kinds of actual sin-mortal and venial.

“Mortal,” that is, the sin which kills the soul. When a man receives a very severe wound, we say he is mortally wounded; that is, he will die from the wound. As breath shows there is life in the body, so grace is the life of the soul; when all the breath is out of the body, we say the man is dead. He can perform no action to help himself or others. So when all grace is out of the soul we say it is dead, because it is reduced to the condition of a dead body. It can do no action worthy of merit, such as a soul should do; that is, it can do no action that God is bound to reward-it is dead. But you will say the soul never dies. You mean it will never cease to exist; but we call it dead when it has lost all its power to do supernatural good.

Q. Can a person merit any supernatural reward for good deeds performed while he is in mortal sin?

A. A person cannot merit any supernatural reward for good deeds performed while he is in mortal sin; nevertheless, God rewards such good deeds by giving the grace of repentance; and, therefore, all persons, even those in mortal sin, should ever strive to do good.

Frankly, I prefer to use the CCC but it is not this specific in this area.

Let’ get back to the OP.

James

 

[sandusky]

brandymmiller:

No, we aren’t suprised in the Church by divisions either as we recognize that Christ called us, but we are all sinners and it is in our nature to quarrel with one another because it is in our nature to want to have our own way and to not want to follow a leader, however just and righteous the leader may be.

I’m certain that by “leader,” you mean “the Roman Catholic Pope,” correct?

Therefore, the passage you cite from Philippians does not say what you are saying above.

You have in your mind Organizational unity, under the leadership of an organized religion.

That is not what Paul is calling for in the Philippians passage you cite, neither is it the unity Paul is calling for in the Ephesians passage I cited, v3.

Paul is calling for unity of the Spirit, and that’s the difficulty: we follow a different Spirit, IMHO.

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

I see you have added the word “alone” to the biblical text. You are a true credit to your spritual ancestor, Luther.

Luther added “alone” to Romans 3:28, and explains why he did so.

And, Luther was not alone in doing that.

The Roman Catholic writer Joseph A. Fitzmyer points out that Luther was not the only one to translate Romans 3:28 with the word “alone.”Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3):

Origen, Commentarius in Ep. ad Romanos, cap. 3 (PG 14.952).

Hilary, Commentarius in Matthaeum 8:6 (PL 9.961).

Basil, Hom. de humilitate 20.3 (PG 31.529C).

Ambrosiaster, In Ep. ad Romanos 3.24 (CSEL 81.1.119): “sola fide justificati sunt dono Dei,” through faith alone they have been justified by a gift of God; 4.5 (CSEL 81.1.130).

John Chrysostom, Hom. in Ep. ad Titum 3.3 (PG 62.679 [not in Greek text]).

Cyril of Alexandria, In Joannis Evangelium 10.15.7 (PG 74.368 [but alludes to Jas 2:19]).

Bernard, In Canticum serm. 22.8 (PL 183.881): “solam justificatur per fidem,”
is justified by faith alone.

Theophylact, Expositio in ep. ad Galatas 3.12-13 (PG 124.988).

To these eight Lyonnet added two others (Quaestiones, 114-18):

Theodoret, Affectionum curatio 7 (PG 93.100; ed. J. Raeder [Teubner], 189.20-24).

Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (Parma ed., 13.588): “Non est ergo in eis [moralibus et caeremonialibus legis] spes iustificationis, sed in sola fide, Rom. 3:28: Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legis” (Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone, Rom 3:28: We consider a human being to be justified by faith, without the works of the law). Cf. In ep. ad Romanos 4.1 (Parma ed., 13.42a): “reputabitur fides eius, scilicet sola sine operibus exterioribus, ad iustitiam”; In ep. ad Galatas 2.4 (Parma ed., 13.397b): “solum ex fide Christi” [Opera 20.437, b41]).

See further:

Theodore of Mopsuestia, In ep. ad Galatas (ed. H. B. Swete), 1.31.15.

Marius Victorinus (ep. Pauli ad Galatas (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15-16: “Ipsa enim fides sola iustificationem dat-et sanctificationem” (For faith itself alone gives justification and sanctification); In ep. Pauli Ephesios (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15: “Sed sola fides in Christum nobis salus est” (But only faith in Christ is salvation for us).

Augustine, De fide et operibus, 22.40 (CSEL 41.84-85): “licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur” (Although it can be said that God’s commandments pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love”). Migne Latin Text: Venire quippe debet etiam illud in mentem, quod scriptum est, In hoc cognoscimus eum, si mandata ejus servemus. Qui dicit, Quia cognovi eum, et mandata ejus non servat, mendax est, et in hoc veritas non est (I Joan. II, 3, 4). Et ne quisquam existimet mandata ejus ad solam fidem pertinere: quanquam dicere hoc nullus est ausus, praesertim quia mandata dixit, quae ne multitudine cogitationem spargerent [Note: [Col. 0223] Sic Mss. Editi vero, cogitationes parerent.], In illis duobus tota Lex pendet et Prophetae (Matth. XXII, 40): licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere Dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intelligatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur; tamen postea Joannes ipse aperuit quid diceret, cum ait: Hoc est mandatum ejus, ut credamus nomini Filii ejus Jesu Christi, et diligamns invicem (I Joan. III, 23) See De fide et operibus, Cap. XXII, §40, PL 40:223.

Source: Joseph A. Fitzmyer Romans, A New Translation with introduction and Commentary, The Anchor Bible Series (New York: Doubleday, 1993) 360-361.From your post, I must conclude that those Fitzmyer cites from the ECF are my spiritual ancestors as well.

Thank you, Joseph Fitzmyer. :tiphat:

 

[CentralFLJames]

Perhaps this is my ignorance speaking here, but I was not aware that there was ever a time when one’s good works were worthless, or that God did not count them.

If that were the case, then how could we ever repent and return, since our repentance would be worthless? Please enlighten me, that I may understand. On judgement day, doesn’t God count both our good works and our bad, before making the final judgement? If so, then logically our good works are not worthless, they may simply not be enough to balance the evil we have done when we turned away from Him.

The sobering truth is that mortal sin is so utterly terrible that ALL supernatural merit earned from prior good deeds is completely nullified. It’s not clear to me if one repents if God let’s them regain those prior merits. I need to do some research here.

So, in other words if someone did missionary work 50 years and then lost their faith and despaired and rejected Christ that mortal sin would utterly wipe out all merits of their entire life! If they died impenitent they go to hell. On the mercy side of things we have the opposite case of the prodigal’s son. Here a person who is sinful all their life and performed no acts of supernatural merit can gain eternal reward for repenting and earning salvation at the very end of one’s life.

To me though it is not probable that God would permit a person who bathed in His grace all their life and who labored all that time in love for God to be become obdurate and not grant them a final saving repentant grace before they died. But the lesson here is that one must be responsible for their sins and persevere to the very end.

I am particularly worried about those who use the Protestant doctrine of OSAS as an excuse to sin. These are putting God’s Mercy to the test and are setting themselves up for damnation and as the sins compound are even cutting themselves off from repentant grace or setting themselves up for a capital sin.

Fortunately, some of us are spending a lot of time praying for the obdurate to repent. So repentant grace is also available to some through The Intercessions of the Saints (even if these people do not believe in that).

James

 

[guanophore]

This is a ridicules argument, Christ is God, therefore not capable of sin, Mary and you and I are human and subject to sinning.

Yes. A common misunderstanding is that Mary was “prevented” from sinning. On the contrary, the Church teaches that she was created just like Eve, without original sin, and chose not to sin, contrary to Eve, who chose to sin.

These holy men and women do not consciously reject the Catholic Church, however. It is conscious rejection of the Catholic Church that renders one’s works to be worthless.

Perhaps this is my ignorance speaking here, but I was not aware that there was ever a time when one’s good works were worthless, or that God did not count them. If that were the case, then how could we ever repent and return, since our repentance would be worthless? Please enlighten me, that I may understand. On judgement day, doesn’t God count both our good works and our bad, before making the final judgement? If so, then logically our good works are not worthless, they may simply not be enough to balance the evil we have done when we turned away from Him.

You are speaking from a postion of faith in Christ, so yes all of your deeds will “count”. It is only those who are not in a state of grace whose actions cannot please God:

“…whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.” Rom 14:23

People who think that they can get to heaven by being “good” are sadly mistaken. None of our works are righteous in the sight of God unless they are flowing from the grace that He gives.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. "

Good works that we do because we are His workmanship, because we are saved by grace through faith, will “count”, because they come not from ourselves, but from His grace.

 

[guanophore]

isn’t there a verse that deals with this? It says something to the effect of the jewels in our crown that we will receive, representing our faithfulness to God and doing His will?

How about this one?

Rom 2:9-10
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good,"

Yes, there are many verses that speak to eternal rewards for all those who participate in the good works that were created from the foundation of the world, that we should walk in them.

2 Tim 4:8
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing."

Matt 10:41-42
1 He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward, and he who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."

 

[CentralFLJames]

Luther added “alone” to Romans 3:28, and explains why he did so.

And, Luther was not alone in doing that.

The Roman Catholic writer Joseph A. Fitzmyer points out that Luther was not the only one to translate Romans 3:28 with the word “alone.”

Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3):
…
Thank you, Joseph Fitzmyer. :tiphat:
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If you are going to hold up Fitzmyer as superior to the Early Church Fathers you must note that he remains Catholic and utterly rejects Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura and the other general errors of Protestantism. It does not merit further discussion here as to why he used the term “alone” when most other Catholic academics rejected it since 1) The OP has nothing to do with this subject and it is a deflection and 2) the outcome is identical - Protestantism is gravely disordered in Fitzmyer’s eyes as well as in the eyes of over a billion Catholics. Are you sure you want to go down the path of a majority rule sort of standard and use a democratic process to vote in the best religion? Catholics in their solidarity win hands down in numbers there.

James​

 

[JoeyWarren]

I will second this:

Peter Da Rock wrote:
JustAsking4, I hereby challenge you to address individually and in detail and refute them as best as possible all 12 points Randy Carson presented in post 651. 12 is such a good number.

The ball is in your court JustAsking4.

Matter of fact, I challenge every non-catholic that has participated in this thread to the same challenge.

Are you ready to rumble?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Peter Da Rock wrote:

Sandusky, Give it a shot. Disprove each one.

It’s not a matter of interpretation. No interpretation is being done.

It’s a matter of recognizing the parallels as fore-shadowings and pre-figurements.

Of course you can say it’s all just coincidence.

Is it just coincidence?

I will second this and add to it.

Sandusky, are the parallels just merely coincidence?

Sandusky, I don’t think you should respond to anything further in this thread until you have answered questions in this post.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Sandusky wrote: Thank you, Joseph Fitzmyer. :tiphat:

Sandusky, Have you read this work by Fr Jospeh Fitzmyer? or are you just copying and pasting from some other anti-catholic website?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

This is a ridicules argument, Christ is God, therefore not capable of sin, Mary and you and I are human and subject to sinning.

 

[Delta2]

Immaculate conception was explained ex cathera by Pope Pius IX “Ineffabilis Deus” bull

It is a infallible dogma of our church

newadvent.org/library/docs_pi09id.htm

Hope this helps to clarify some things

 

[Good_Fella]

Why didn’t God say in His Word that Mary is sinless?

Surely if Mary was sinless God would have made sure that this fact was recorded in His Word.

Why didn’t God ‘explicitly’ say in His Word that He and his Son are the same in both substance and essence or that Jesus has both a divine and a human nature? Surely, God would have made sure that these truths were explicitly recorded.

The great Christological controversies and heresies in the early Church arose because Scripture alone is not clear and definitive with regard to these truths. Our Christological and Marian dogmas were definitively declared in response to the challenges made against traditional orthodox beliefs by heretics.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[sandusky]

If you are going to hold up Fitzmyer as superior to the Early Church Fathers you must note that he remains Catholic and utterly rejects Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura and the other general errors of Protestantism. It does not merit further discussion here as to why he used the term “alone” when most other Catholic academics rejected it since 1) The OP has nothing to do with this subject and it is a deflection and 2) the outcome is identical - Protestantism is gravely disordered in Fitzmyer’s eyes as well as in the eyes of over a billion Catholics. Are you sure you want to go down the path of a majority rule sort of standard and use a democratic process to vote in the best religion? Catholics in their solidarity win hands down in numbers there.

James

He also makes it clear, as Luther himself said, that others in your church beside Luther added the word alone to Rom 3:28.

 

[sandusky]

I will second this and add to it.

Sandusky, are the parallels just merely coincidence?

Sandusky, I don’t think you should respond to anything further in this thread until you have answered questions in this post.

As I’ve stated, they are confabulations, IMO.

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky, Have you read this work by Fr Jospeh Fitzmyer? or are you just copying and pasting from some other anti-catholic website?

It’s true Joey, why is truth so difficult for you? :ehh:

 

[JoeyWarren]

It’s true Joey, why is truth so difficult for you? :ehh:

Have you read this work of his. A simple Yes or No will suffice.

 

[CentralFLJames]

He also makes it clear, as Luther himself said, that others in your church beside Luther added the word alone to Rom 3:28.

But as I mentioned, with our without the word “alone”, the Catholic interpretation of the scripture remains as it always has - Faith with works. So in essence, the point is mute. And the author you try to hold in opposition to the Catholic Church in fact fully embraces Catholicism. Protestants can’t shanghai Catholics to fight their war when they wear a Catholic uniform. So you will have to fight the truth on your own merits - not the merits of others. Good Luck.

For the record - the Protestant reformers would turn over in their graves if they could see what their rebellion against the Catholic Church Teaching has caused. If they could see the wound that their error has caused they would no doubt be on their knees weeping and repenting. No doubt some who died impenitent are held accountable to God soul for soul that has been lost - and that could very well be hundreds of millions. God have mercy on them.

But the reformers in promoting the error of sola fide never intended to affirm that faith is to be found on its own. It is NOT nuda fides as so many confused Protestants now believe as the error snowballs down the slippery slope. Just as the sun can not produce light without heat – faith like sunlight is conjoined with its other attributes - its warmth. Even Calvin readily admitted this.

Justification by faith can never stand on its own since faith is always paired with other things. Traditionally Faith, Hope and Love are inexplicably all interlinked and inseparable just as the three Divine Persons of the Trinity can ever stand alone and separate from the others. The Catholic Teaching goes further by saying that where there is faith - works also naturally follow.

The error of Sola Fide is how some Protestants get to the strange theology that one does not need to be baptized. It’s just amazing to me how fast heresies, no matter what the imagined intent or motive of their promoters were become huge and fatal errors that spawn off mutations like a fornicator spawns (Edited) children.

James

 

[JoeyWarren]

As I’ve stated, they are confabulations, IMO.

Confabulations?

In lieu of answering the question, he sidesteps the issue when an answer either way condemns him.

 

[guanophore]

Your statement begs the question, and, IMO, shows a lack of understanding of what Christ’s church is, and who belongs to it.

The Lord prayed to the Father for unity in his church, and the Father always hears and answers the prayers of the Son. Paul echos that truth:Ephesians 4:4-6

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;

one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.The report of divisions is not surprising to Paul, and if divisions are not surprising to Paul, they are, most certainly, not surprising to the Lord:

1 Corinthians 1:10

Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Therefore, there is no reason for worry, or concern about visible divisions among “the church.”

**That is because no divisions exist among Christ’s true spiritual body—the descendants of Abraham through faith alone (Gal 3:7, 9, 14). **

You won’t find that truth in tradition/Tradition, but it is in the written word of God.

Part of that Tradition (in the written as well as lived Word) is to preserve the unity in the bond of peace. I agree with you about the mystical Body of Christ being one and whole. In this same chapter of Galations we read:

" For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Gal 3:27-28

I also agree that there are members of it that are not necessarily visible to the human eye. I don’t recommend that one “worry” about the divisions, but it most certainly should be our care and concern to resolve them.
sandusky;3583543:

You have in your mind Organizational unity,

under the leadership of an organized religion.

That is not what Paul is calling for in the Philippians passage you cite, neither is it the unity Paul is calling for in the Ephesians passage I cited, v3.

Actually no, although I do believe that Jesus founded a visible Church, I believe that unity is found in adherance to right doctrine. Jesus said “I am Truth” and that He came to give testimony to the Truth. To the extent that we all cling to Him as the Head, we are in unity with one another.

Paul is calling for unity of the Spirit,

and that’s the difficulty: we follow a different Spirit, IMHO.

Can you please explain what you mean by this?

Luther added “alone” to Romans 3:28, and explains why he did so.

And, Luther was not alone

in doing that.
From your post, I must conclude that those Fitzmyer cites from the ECF are my spiritual ancestors as well.

Thank you, Joseph Fitzmyer. :tiphat:

Yes, thanks Fitz! Yes, to the extent that you also embrace Catholic soteriology expressed by these writers, these may be your spritual ancestors as well. Catholicism teaches that we are justified by grace, through faith. What is different is that those of Apostolic faiths do not separate justification from sanctification and glorification.

Paul and these others write about being justified by faith. The proper response to grace is to bear fruit that befits repentance. To be baptized into Christ means to “put on” Christ. This is the work of the believer.

"…**put on **the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:24

" Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old nature with its practices 10 and have put on the new nature…" Col 3:9-10

Putting off the old nature is definitely a lot of work. Such acts cannot be successful if they are separated from the grace by which we are saved.

" But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,…" 1 Thess 5:8-10

Through the free gift of God’s grace, the Christian has the Spirit of God within to will and do work His good pleasure. These instructions, being in the imperitive mode, make it clear that they are for us to do. Salvation is not a passive event, for even the grace of God must be mixed with faith in those that hear the Word.
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