Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[sandusky]

CentralFLJames:

But as I mentioned, with our without the word “alone”, the Catholic interpretation of the scripture remains as it always has - Faith with works. So in essence, the point is mute. And the author you try to hold in opposition to the Catholic Church in fact fully embraces Catholicism. Protestants can’t shanghai Catholics to fight their war when they wear a Catholic uniform. So you will have to fight the truth on your own merits - not the merits of others. Good Luck.

The truth is James, in addition to Luther, all of those listed by Fitzmyer added the word ”alone” to Romans 3:28.

CentralFLJames:

For the record - the Protestant reformers would turn over in their graves if they could see what their rebellion against the Catholic Church Teaching has caused. If they could see the wound that their error has caused they would no doubt be on their knees weeping and repenting. No doubt some who died impenitent are held accountable to God soul for soul that has been lost - and that could very well be hundreds of millions. God have mercy on them.

Thanks for your unsupportable opinion.

CentralFLJames:

But the reformers in promoting the error of sola fide never intended to affirm that faith is to be found on its own. It is NOT nuda fides as so many confused Protestants now believe as the error snowballs down the slippery slope. Just as the sun can not produce light without heat – faith like sunlight is conjoined with its other attributes - its warmth. Even Calvin readily admitted this.

That’s a strawman, James; why not take a year and study the doctrine, PM me and I’ll point in the right direction.

CentralFLJames:

Justification by faith can never stand on its own since faith is always paired with other things. Traditionally Faith, Hope and Love are inexplicably all interlinked and inseparable just as the three Divine Persons of the Trinity can ever stand alone and separate from the others. The Catholic Teaching goes further by saying that where there is faith - works also naturally follow.

The true and biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone states the same thing, James, but you won’t take the time to find that out, preferring instead to beat up a strawman.

CentralFLJames:

The error of Sola Fide is how some Protestants get to the strange theology that one does not need to be baptized. It’s just amazing to me how fast heresies, no matter what the imagined intent or motive of their promoters were become huge and fatal errors that spawn off mutations like a fornicator spawns (Edited) children.

Is this the type of charity that forms your One True, Apostolic, Roman Catholic faith, James?

 

[sandusky]

Confabulations?

In lieu of answering the question, he sidesteps the issue when an answer either way condemns him.

Why is it that whenever the Catholic doesnt’ get the answer he wants, he levels the accusation that the one who answered has "sidestepped the issue?

Anyone who believes the notions put forward in Carson’s “typological” post, is not discerning, and will believe anything, IMHO.

FYI, Joey, my last statement is not “sidestepping” the issue; for me, that is the issue.

 

[guanophore]

The sobering truth is that mortal sin is so utterly terrible that ALL supernatural merit earned from prior good deeds is completely nullified. It’s not clear to me if one repents if God let’s them regain those prior merits. I need to do some research here.

This is an interesting topic, which we should probably take to a new thread. Since the treasures are stored up in heaven, it stands to reason that they are immutable:

“…lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” Matt 6:20-21

Mortal sin disconnects one’s heart from God, and therefore, from the heavenly treasure. Yet, as we see in the parable of the Prodical Son (probably more aptly called Prodigal Father), when we come to ourselves and return, we are restored at once.

But the lesson here is that one must be responsible for their sins and persevere to the very end.

This is, interestingly, the main debate abour Mary. Those of Apostolic faiths say that she took responsibility for herself, and persevered to the end. It is true that grace preserves us from sin, but we also need to make choices not to sin. Why does it seem so incredible to believe that this is possible?

I am particularly worried about those who use the Protestant doctrine of OSAS as an excuse to sin. These are putting God’s Mercy to the test and are setting themselves up for damnation and as the sins compound are even cutting themselves off from repentant grace or setting themselves up for a capital sin.

I think those that abuse this reallly misunderstand the doctrine, however, this topic is already being addressed on another thread.

Fortunately, some of us are spending a lot of time praying for the obdurate to repent. So repentant grace is also available to some through The Intercessions of the Saints (even if these people do not believe in that).

James

" My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20

Can a brother save another brother?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.
– James 4:17

 

[JoeyWarren]

" My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20

Can a brother save another brother?

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Can Paul save people?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Can Paul save people?

Apparently so - by becoming an instrument of God. In fact the whole NT message seems to show us how utterly humble we must be since none of us can do any sustainable good without Jesus. The NT message is an antidote to PRIDE. We as sinners can do nothing of our own merits and without God’s grace can do nothing that merits God’s pleasure or compels us to reward us. It is only by cooperating with God’s grace through a labors of love that any of us stands a chance of pleasing God (but ironically never able to completely satisfy God since only Jesus can do that).

Jesus specifically tells us “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.” (Math 4:19). The metaphor becomes profound when one realizes that the sea is full of many different kinds of fish (personalities, prejudices, intellects, strengths, weaknesses etc.) and many different kinds of techniques are necessary for catching each one at its own depth.

Bottom line: Yes a brother can save a brother if we are good fishermen and follow Jesus’ instructions on where to cast our nets. There is even room in the boat for those of us who are called to go deep as bottom fishers to get to the big fish hiding in the shadows of the deep and who like to stir up the muck for those nearer the surface.

The Golden Hook of Peter will get all that the boat was build to hold…

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

The truth is James, in addition to Luther, all of those listed by Fitzmyer added the word ”alone” to Romans 3:28.

Why not embrace the greater truth; the greater good? You argue toward an objective that serves only a rhetorical device and a personal prize that merits nothing in heaven.

Thanks for your unsupportable opinion.

Is sarcasm an example of Protestant charity or was it meant as a lesson in hypocrisy?

That’s a strawman, James; why not take a year and study the doctrine, PM me and I’ll point in the right direction.

Will you give me the same kinds of confused directions Dorothy got on her way to Oz when she came face to face with the man of straw - “some go this way - others that way”? No, thanks. Time is short and the spiritual sloth of idol [sic by intent] time in academic pursuits is a capital sin.

The true and biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone states the same thing, James, but you won’t take the time to find that out, preferring instead to beat up a strawman.

Jesus, His True Church teach and the preponderance of evidence of the early Church Fathers teach us otherwise.

Is this the type of charity that forms your One True, Apostolic, Roman Catholic faith, James?

See my comments above and see if you are being selective here and perhaps tending toward hypocrisy. As it is my colorful colloquialism is consistent with the truth as well as the measured tone of Jesus’ scorn for false teachers. Charity has its conventions and what I have said here in the general sense pales in comparison to what could and even should justly be said.

Weigh your complaints against how Jesus himself spoke and acted:

• You brood of vipers! how can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." (Matthew 12:24-28,31-34 KJV)
• You faithless generation, how much longer must I be among you? How much longer must I put up with you?” (Mark 9:19).
• He curses a fig tree (Mark 11:13-14).
• He drives people out of the temple area with a whip (John 2:15) overturning tables, and physically intimidating people to prevent their passing through (Mark 11:15-17).
• Jesus throws people out of a room so he can heal a child, and then he “strictly ordered” witnesses of the miracle to keep quiet (Mark 5:40, 43).
• He and Peter get into a row, each rebuking the other (Mark 8:32-33).
• He calls Herod a fox (Luke 13:32), and
• Jesus castigates the scribes and Pharisees at length, mocking them as “blind guides” and “hypocrites” (Matt. 23:24-25),
• Jesus practically curses the Pharisees, saying, “You are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth” (Matt. 23:27).

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Why not embrace the greater truth; the greater good? You argue toward an objective that serves only a rhetorical device and a personal prize that merits nothing in heaven.

Is sarcasm an example of Protestant charity? Or was this meant as a lesson in hypocrisy?

Will you give me the same kinds of confused directions Dorothy got on her way to Oz when she came face to face with the man of straw - “some go this way - others that way”. No, thanks. Time is short and the spiritual sloth of idol [sic by intent] academic pursuits is a capital sin.

Jesus, His True Church teach and the preponderance of evidence of the early Church Fathers teach us otherwise.

See my comments above and see if you are being selective here and perhaps tending toward hypocrisy. As it is my colorful colloquialism is consistent with the truth as well as the measured tone of Jesus’ scorn for false teachers. Charity has its conventions and what I have said here in the general sense pales in comparison to what could and even should justly be said.

Weigh your complaints against how Jesus himself spoke and acted:

• You brood of vipers! how can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." (Matthew 12:24-28,31-34 KJV)
• You faithless generation, how much longer must I be among you? How much longer must I put up with you?” (Mark 9:19).
• He curses a fig tree (Mark 11:13-14).
• He drives people out of the temple area with a whip (John 2:15) overturning tables, and physically intimidating people to prevent their passing through (Mark 11:15-17).
• Jesus throws people out of a room so he can heal a child, and then he “strictly ordered” witnesses of the miracle to keep quiet (Mark 5:40, 43).
• He and Peter get into a row, each rebuking the other (Mark 8:32-33).
• He calls Herod a fox (Luke 13:32), and
• Jesus castigates the scribes and Pharisees at length, mocking them as “blind guides” and “hypocrites” (Matt. 23:24-25),
• Jesus practically curses the Pharisees, saying, “You are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth” (Matt. 23:27).

James

 

[sandusky]

Why not embrace the greater truth; the greater good? You argue toward an objective that serves only a rhetorical device and a personal prize that merits nothing in heaven.

Is sarcasm an example of Protestant charity or was it meant as a lesson in hypocrisy?

Will you give me the same kinds of confused directions Dorothy got on her way to Oz when she came face to face with the man of straw - “some go this way - others that way”? No, thanks. Time is short and the spiritual sloth of idol [sic by intent] time in academic pursuits is a capital sin.

Jesus, His True Church teach and the preponderance of evidence of the early Church Fathers teach us otherwise.

See my comments above and see if you are being selective here and perhaps tending toward hypocrisy. As it is my colorful colloquialism is consistent with the truth as well as the measured tone of Jesus’ scorn for false teachers. Charity has its conventions and what I have said here in the general sense pales in comparison to what could and even should justly be said.

Weigh your complaints against how Jesus himself spoke and acted:

• You brood of vipers! how can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." (Matthew 12:24-28,31-34 KJV)
• You faithless generation, how much longer must I be among you? How much longer must I put up with you?” (Mark 9:19).
• He curses a fig tree (Mark 11:13-14).
• He drives people out of the temple area with a whip (John 2:15) overturning tables, and physically intimidating people to prevent their passing through (Mark 11:15-17).
• Jesus throws people out of a room so he can heal a child, and then he “strictly ordered” witnesses of the miracle to keep quiet (Mark 5:40, 43).
• He and Peter get into a row, each rebuking the other (Mark 8:32-33).
• He calls Herod a fox (Luke 13:32), and
• Jesus castigates the scribes and Pharisees at length, mocking them as “blind guides” and “hypocrites” (Matt. 23:24-25),
• Jesus practically curses the Pharisees, saying, “You are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth” (Matt. 23:27).

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

You can run but you can’t hide…

James

 

[emeraldisle]

Yes. A common misunderstanding is that Mary was “prevented” from sinning. On the contrary, the Church teaches that she was created just like Eve, without original sin, and chose not to sin, contrary to Eve, who chose to sin.

This is the problem, “the Church teaches”, I’m seeking to find out what God teaches us from His written Word. I trust God and I believe what He teaches in His written Word.

Once people go outside Gods written Word then they get into false teaching. That is why God has given us His written Word so that we can test all teaching to see whether its true or false.

Where does it say in the Bible that Mary was created without original sin?
.

 

[emeraldisle]

Mach1Man;3582820:

Christian understand states that Christ was both fully human and fully God, two natures in one being. Now is scripture incorrect in stating that “all have sinned” or is scripture stating something else, since we all know that Christ was without sin, even though he had a human nature.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:23

How can Jesus the God/Man come short of the glory of God?

Mary is human and that is why she is included in the “for all have sinned”.

.

 

[CentralFLJames]

This is the problem, “the Church teaches”, I’m seeking to find out what God teaches us from His written Word. I trust God and I believe what He teaches in His written Word.

Once people go outside Gods written Word then they get into false teaching. That is why God has given us His written Word so that we can test all teaching to see whether its true or false.

Where does it say in the Bible that Mary was created without original sin?
.

Why do you trust The Catholic Church and her earliest members to write and assemble the bible and declare its combined 72 books as the inspired Word of God from among hundreds of other spurious writings but not trust her to teach what she gave you? Graciously accepting the bible from The Catholic Church while rejecting her teaching is is like accepting the gift of the text book from the teacher who wrote it and then spitting in her face when she tries to tell you want she meant when she wrote it. It is even more wrong for the student to argue with the teacher and the inspired writer and custodian of the faith that one knows more! The Church is the mystical body of Christ and is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - only The Catholic Church can teach you the truths of God.

Where in the Bible does does it say that Mary is sinless? It does not say it anywhere in those exact words but just like the teaching of the trinity that Protestants take from Catholics it is inferred in a deeper understanding of scripture. There are literally dozens of places in scripture prefiguring Mary’s role and her special status that have been mentioned in this forum. But if you want the short cut way to see the inference as plain as day consider the following indisputable fact:

Luke 1:41-42
When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!".

Clearly, blessings are eternal and to be blessed above all women means that Mary had to be the highest woman in all of creation. Eve was created without original sin - yet Eve sinned. To be greater than Eve, who was after-all a woman, it would mean that Mary not only had NO ORIGINAL SIN but NEVER SINNED (even though she was subject to temptation). Since Jesus was Mary’s savior Mary was saved from sin through the preemption of Jesus’ saving grace. We can also infer from the prefiguring of the arc of the covenant that it would be inconceivable that God would permit the arc of His Divine Word, the living word of God, Jesus, to ever reside in a vessel of sin or anything less than utter purity. If God would keep His commandments written in stone in the purity of Arc of the covenant how much so would God insist that His own Divine Son be carried for 40 weeks in the purity of Mary’s being.

James

 

[jmcrae]

This is the problem, “the Church teaches”, I’m seeking to find out what God teaches us from His written Word. I trust God and I believe what He teaches in His written Word.

You realize that the Bible didn’t fall from Heaven, right? You’re fully aware that the New Testament was written and put together by the leadership of the Catholic Church, right?

So, how is it that you trust the Oral Tradition of the Catholic Church to infallibly give you a New Testament, but don’t trust those same men when they make the same sorts of pronouncements on other subjects, using exactly the same procedural forms?

 

[sandusky]

You can run but you can’t hide…

James

Every morning is the dawn of a new error…

 

[mercygate]

This is the problem, “the Church teaches”, I’m seeking to find out what God teaches us from His written Word. I trust God and I believe what He teaches in His written Word.

Once people go outside Gods written Word then they get into false teaching. That is why God has given us His written Word so that we can test all teaching to see whether its true or false.

Where does it say in the Bible that Mary was created without original sin?
.

Most of the heresies ever mounted claim that they are rooted in and tested by God’s written Word. The sinlessness Mary is a sub-doctrine that falls under her title, “Mother of God”. This title, in turn, relates to the hypostatic union.

Belief in the Trinity and belief in the Marian title “Mother of God” are essential to Christian orthodoxy and are shared by Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, and other Christians, even those of the sola Scriptura persuasion.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Please remain on topic or risk having the thread locked.
MF

 

[CentralFLJames]

Every morning is the dawn of a new error…

But that is all changing soon so I would not boast of that accomplishment.

Revelation 22:16-17 **
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches.
I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star**.”
17 The Spirit and the bride [The Catholic Church] say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

James

 

[sandusky]

But that is all changing soon so I would not boast of that accomplishment.

Revelation 22:16-17 **
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches.
I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star**.”
17 The Spirit and the bride [The Catholic Church] say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.

 

[PhilVaz]

On page 51 of this thread, anybody read this yet

The Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God

That’s why the Catholic Church considers Mary sinless. All of the reasons. Covers everything.

Phil P