Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[LilyM]

The question of this tread is “Why doesn’t the Biblesay Mary is sinless?”

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Not any more - that question was answered long ago (because it doesn’t have to for starters). Now the question has changed to ‘does the fact the Bible may not explicitly say Mary is sinless mean I don’t have to believe it?’ to which the answer is ‘absolutely not - you have to, for example, believe the NT is scripture even though the Bible doesn’t even mention a New Testament being written, and all its references to scripture are necessarily references to the Old Testament only’

 

[emeraldisle]

The true reason why God doesn’t say in His written Word that Mary was sinless is because God doesn’t contradict Himself.

God says the following in His written Word;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:23

So God clearly states in His written Word that Mary was a sinner like all of humanity. Therefore its hardly surprising that He doesn’t then say in His written Word that Mary was sinless. God never contradicts Himself.

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[LilyM]

The true reason why God doesn’t say in His written Word that Mary was sinless is because God doesn’t contradict Himself.

God says the following in His written Word;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:23

So God clearly states in His written Word that Mary was a sinner like all of humanity. Therefore its hardly surprising that He doesn’t then say in His written Word that Mary was sinless. God never contradicts Himself.

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Where does it say in Romans or any other book of the Bible that Romans is scripture and the inspired word of God, as opposed to the perhaps useful but uninspired and fallible teachings of Paul? It’s only Tradition, of the exact same sort that tells us Mary was sinless, that tells us that Romans is in fact the inspired word of God.

 

[clmowry]

emeraldisle:
God says the following in His written Word;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:23

So God clearly states in His written Word that Mary was a sinner like all of humanity. Therefore its hardly surprising that He doesn’t then say in His written Word that Mary was sinless. God never contradicts Himself.

No God does not “clearly” state anywhere in scripture that Mary the mother of God was a sinner.

No matter how many times you make this assertion, it will not make it true.

So can we conclude from your statement that you must therefore also believe that all human beings, including newborn children, are guilty of personal sin.

Do all of the newborn children who die therefore go to hell?

Chuck

 

[CentralFLJames]

Bottom line, even Catholics admit that Catholicism is not necessarily a Biblically based religion - it’s traditionally based. The Bible (Scriptures) being just a part of its “tradition.” Catholics don’t need Biblical support for any of their Marian dogmas. As stated on this thread (and many others) Catholic authority rests in its church hierarchy and tradition.

The O.P. essentially asked why the sinlessness of Mary is not (exegetically) taught in the Bible. Catholics defensively try to prove that it is (but utterly fail). Why waste time and energy? The authority behind its Marian doctrines is not the Scriptures but its tradition. These must be accepted and personally believed because that’s the word that comes from the front office - whether it’s Biblical or not.

But the bible itself flows from tradition and oral teaching. Taking your line of analysis we can then say that the OP question is illicitly formed from a false presumption that the Bible does not flow from tradition. We Catholics are correcting the error in the OP assumption and trying to present the revealed truth that comes from our tradition and teaching of the Holy Spirit,

Why waste time and energy? If one does not respect the authority and perspective of The Catholic Church then why did the OP ask the question at all? We Catholics have to presume at least a minimum level of sincerity and respect of perspective in asking these questions. By asking a question the OP essentially is willing to submit to the authority of The Catholic Church to entertain a reply. If the answer is not well received then the person asking the question is free to go about their business.

The real question is why do people keep asking the same questions and expecting different answers? It is not a thing that is up for debate for us Catholics. Unlike some Protestants here it is not Catholic Tradition to beat a dead horse to death and submit that to God as a work of faith.

The Church has its authority from Jesus Himself. In religious matters Catholics answer only to God and The Church.

James

 

[bookgirl32]

The true reason why God doesn’t say in His written Word that Mary was sinless is because God doesn’t contradict Himself.

God says the following in His written Word;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:23

So God clearly states in His written Word that Mary was a sinner like all of humanity. Therefore its hardly surprising that He doesn’t then say in His written Word that Mary was sinless. God never contradicts Himself.

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So, again, Emerald, please show me where the sripture says the word “Trinity”, where it lists a table of contents for the Old or New Testament (or where the Old listsl it’s own, for that matter), or, here’s the biggie, where it says anything HAS to be in it in the first place?

 

[emeraldisle]

No God does not “clearly” state anywhere in scripture that Mary the mother of God was a sinner.

No matter how many times you make this assertion, it will not make it true.

So can we conclude from your statement that you must therefore also believe that all human beings, including newborn children, are guilty of personal sin.

Do all of the newborn children who die therefore go to hell?

Chuck

Are you suggesting that Mary as a human being was not part of sinful humanity?

The other point you make about children who die is about “sin accountability” and not about “sinlessness”. This thread is about why the Bible doesn’t say Mary was sinless, lets not avoid this by bringing up a different topic of discussion.

Again I ask the question does God contradict Himself by stating in His written Word that Mary is a sinner because she is part of sinful humanity and then supposedly say through Catholic tradition that she was sinless?

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[bookgirl32]

Bottom line, even Catholics admit that Catholicism is not necessarily a Biblically based religion - it’s traditionally based. The Bible (Scriptures) being just a part of its “tradition.” Catholics don’t need Biblical support for any of their Marian dogmas. As stated on this thread (and many others) Catholic authority rests in its church hierarchy and tradition.

The O.P. essentially asked why the sinlessness of Mary is not (exegetically) taught in the Bible. Catholics defensively try to prove that it is (but utterly fail). Why waste time and energy? The authority behind its Marian doctrines is not the Scriptures but its Tradition. These must be accepted and personally believed because that’s the word that comes from the front office - whether it’s Biblical or not.

Actually, the Catholic Church claims that ALL CHRISTIANITY is based on Tradition, not just the Catholic Church. It’s the other churches that claim to be Biblically based, which most are false claims anyway b/c what they claim is biblically based is actually “tradition” (note, small ‘t’) anyway.

 

[bookgirl32]

Are you suggesting that Mary as a human being was not part of sinful humanity?

The other point you make about children who die is about “sin accountability” and not about “sinlessness”. This thread is about why the Bible doesn’t say Mary was sinless, lets not avoid this by bringing up a different topic of discussion.

Again I ask the question does God contradict Himself by stating in His written Word that Mary is a sinner because she is part of sinful humanity and then supposedly say through Catholic tradition that she was sinless?

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You’re claim that God would be “contradicting Himself” if the Church’s stance the Mary was sinless is unfounded. The scriptures nowhere state that she sinned. So that may not be enough to convince you of her Immaculate Conception, but as an argument, it doesn’t hold out, sorry.

 

[Axion]

Are you suggesting that Mary as a human being was not part of sinful humanity?

Sin is NOT an essential of being human. Sin is an aberation from God’s plan for humanity. Adam and Eve, and Jesus were also born sinless.

Again I ask the question does God contradict Himself by stating in His written Word that Mary is a sinner because she is part of sinful humanity and then supposedly say through Catholic tradition that she was sinless?

You are inventing your own contradictions. The bible NEVER says that Mary is a sinner. If she were, she would have passed on her sinful nature to Jesus, who took His human nature from her.

You are quoting the verse “All have sinned” which is so abused by fundamentalists. This is not written with any regard to Mary. It is on a very different topic, and is clearly RHETORICAL. Babies have not sinned. The unconscious have not sinned. Jesus has not sinned.

In fact the word used for ALL in the passage (Greek PAS), is widely used in the new Testament, and DOES NOT have the meaning that protestant fundamentalists want to ascribe to it. PAS does not mean “All - 100%, no exceptions”.

John 12:19, “All (pas) the world has gone after him!” Did everyone in the entire world really go after Christ?

Mt 3:5-6, “Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL (PAS) Judea, and ALL (PAS) the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.”
Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

Luke 2:1 “And an order went out from Caesar Augustus that ALL (PAS) the world should be counted.”

Was everyone in the whole world counted?

Unless PAS means “All - 100% without exceptions”, which it clearly does not, its use in Romans cannot be used as an argument against the sinlessness of Mary.

 

[emeraldisle]

You’re claim that God would be “contradicting Himself” if the Church’s stance the Mary was sinless is unfounded. The scriptures nowhere state that she sinned. So that may not be enough to convince you of her Immaculate Conception, but as an argument, it doesn’t hold out, sorry.

The Scriptures state the following;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:23

The all means all of humanity, that includes you, me and yes even Mary.

Now why does God clearly state in His written Word that Mary was a sinner but the Catholic Church teaches she was sinless?

Surely you are not going to tell me that God is confused?

No, of course not; God has clearly told us in His written Word that Mary as a human being was a sinner just like the rest of sinful humanity.

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[CentralFLJames]

Are you suggesting that Mary as a human being was not part of sinful humanity?

The other point you make about children who die is about “sin accountability” and not about “sinlessness”. This thread is about why the Bible doesn’t say Mary was sinless, lets not avoid this by bringing up a different topic of discussion.

Again I ask the question does God contradict Himself by stating in His written Word that Mary is a sinner because she is part of sinful humanity and then supposedly say through Catholic tradition that she was sinless?

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You should be able to answer this yourself. Would you say that Jesus was not a part of sinful humanity?

Since you don’t want to hear what Catholics have told you what God told us on the matter why don’t you ask God why He did not say in scripture that Mary was sinful. Why you are at it ask God why you always see contradiction in His Word where there is none.

James

 

[bookgirl32]

The Scriptures state the following;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:23

The all means all of humanity, that includes you, me and yes even Mary.

 

[emeraldisle]

Babies have not sinned. The unconscious have not sinned. Jesus has not sinned.

We are discussing about Mary, was she a perpetual baby or was she unconscious or was she like Jesus as He was God/Man born of the Holy Spirit?

No Mary was simply a human being and like all human beings she was a sinner.

Maybe someone is going to suggest that Mary was not a human being and so she wasn’t part of sinful humanity??

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[emeraldisle]

emeraldisle;3587505:

The Scriptures state the following;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:23

And Jesus too then, huh? He was a part of humanity.

Of course Gods written Word does tell us that Jesus was sinless but it doesn’t tell us Mary was sinless.

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

Point that scripture out to me then please, I’ve never seen it.

The following Scriptures clearly tell us all of humanity is sinful and of course we know that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12
.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:23

 

[CentralFLJames]

The Scriptures state the following;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:23

The all means all of humanity, that includes you, me and yes even Mary.

Now why does God clearly state in His written Word that Mary was a sinner but the Catholic Church teaches she was sinless?

Surely you are not going to tell me that God is confused?

No, of course not; God has clearly told us in His written Word that Mary as a human being was a sinner just like the rest of sinful humanity.

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If you are going to be fixated on a sophomoric fundamentalism then at least be consistent and admit that Mary is not a “man”. Where does it say all women sinned? If that does not wake you up to the error of fundamentalism then consider that God contradicts you in:

1 John 3: 9** Whosoever is born of God committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him. And he cannot sin, because he is born of God.**

Are you saying Mary was not born of God?

James

 

[emeraldisle]

If you are going to be fixated on a sophomoric fundamentalism then at least be consistent and admit that Mary is not a “man”. Where does it say all women sinned?

James

Is Mary a woman?

1 John 3: 9** Whosoever is born of God committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him. And he cannot sin, because he is born of God.**

Out of context???

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

*No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:9
*
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[Peter_Da_Rock]

James, EmeraldIsle is a broken record. It is stuck on the refrain “All have sinned”

 

[LilyM]

We are discussing about Mary, was she a perpetual baby or was she unconscious or was she like Jesus as He was God/Man born of the Holy Spirit?

No Mary was simply a human being and like all human beings she was a sinner.

Maybe someone is going to suggest that Mary was not a human being and so she wasn’t part of sinful humanity??

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I vote c) like Jesus - not in His divinity, but in His being without sin

“Simply” a human being? Honoured above all other human beings in that God saw fit to take on His own humanity from her, and created her as a perfect sinless human (as Adam and Eve were before the fall, as all of us were meant to be) to make her fit for the task. Nothing “simple” about that.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Is Mary a woman?

Out of context???

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

*No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:9
*
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I see the source of your confusion. You are inconsistent in your fundamentalism. You are either parroting someone elses (wrong) interpretation of scripture that someone has taught you or your inconsistency arises from an irrational condition that can not be remedied through logical means. In other words its pointless to speak to you further because no appeals to reason will be successful in an obdurate and closed mind or in one that can not be reasoned with due to an irrational condition. Your only alternative now is to pray on it or if still in command of your senses abandon the pretense of objectivity and start learning the truth.

I’ll be praying for you but it normally takes a long time for people like you to develop critical thinking and the maturity of thinking to break the fundamentalist trap that Satan uses to deny God’s children from the fullness of God’s blessings.

Good Luck,
James