Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[CentralFLJames]

James, EmeraldIsle is a broken record. It is stuck on the refrain “All have sinned”

Yeah, I see that now. It’s beyond an appeal to reason and rational thought. Only God can open His mind now. I am moving past him.

James

 

[emeraldisle]

“Simply” a human being? Honoured above all other human beings in that God saw fit to take on His own humanity from her, and created her as a perfect sinless human (as Adam and Eve were before the fall, as all of us were meant to be) to make her fit for the task. Nothing “simple” about that.

Yes its amazing that God chose a simple human being called Mary to give birth to the Lord Jesus and what a blessing this was for Mary. So yes Mary is blessed and of course we know this is true because God has told us so in His written Word. But Mary being sinless well we know this isn’t true because God hasn’t told us in His written Word that Mary was sinless. In fact God tells us in His written Word that Mary as a human being was a sinner like all of sinful humanity.

*And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
Luke 1:28
.
*

 

[clmowry]

Are you suggesting that Mary as a human being was not part of sinful humanity?

Of course not, she was part of humanity, though she was given a special individual grace as the Mother of God to keep her free from sin, both original and personal; much like her Son who was fully human yet free from sin.

The other point you make about children who die is about “sin accountability” and not about “sinlessness”. This thread is about why the Bible doesn’t say Mary was sinless, lets not avoid this by bringing up a different topic of discussion.

Of course it’s about “sinlessness” if you are not capable of being “accountable” for personal sin then you are not capable of a personal sin.

Though the doctrine of original sin would dictate that even a newborn child would be “guilty” of original sin and therefore not sinless, so perhaps the correct question would be

“If ‘all’ have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, then must a baptized new born who dies be guilty of sin and therefore go to hell?”

Where does the bible say: “All have sinned but some are not accountable?” I’d immagine it’s right next to the quote that says “Mary the Mother of God sinned.”

Again I ask the question does God contradict Himself by stating in His written Word that Mary is a sinner because she is part of sinful humanity and then supposedly say through Catholic tradition that she was sinless?

No, God does not contradict Himself.

There is no contradiction between Catholic Tradition and Scripture.

Catholic teaching simply conflicts your erroneous interpretation of scripture.

It is your claim that scripture claims that Mary has sinned that is in dispute, not what God has taught on the subject.

You claim that scripture clearly states that Mary has sinned by quoting verses that say “all” have sinned.

You have concluded that “all” have sinned must mean every single human being that has ever lived and therefore must mean Mary the Mother of God as well.

We know from scripture that Christ was human and was free from sin, so certainly “all” does not apply to Him.

We know that many places in scripture “all” does not mean “absolutely everyone” as has been shown over and over again in this thread.

Yet despite this, you claim that scripture “clearly says that Mary the Mother of God sinned.”

If you simply said: “Scripture is silent on the subject and I do not believe that the Catholic Church has the authority to define as doctrine something that is not explicitly stated in scripture.”

Then I could at least accept your argument as an honest evaluation of the scriptural evidence,

I could even accept your argument as an honest argument if you claimed that “it is my belief that scripture says”.

But no you claim that “God says” clearly that Mary has sinned.

So essentially, you have appointed yourself the infallible interpreter of scripture and the voice of God.

You apparently claim greater intellectual and spiritual prowess than the likes of St. Aquinas (and 2,000 years of other Catholic theologians) who do not seem to find any conflict between Mary being sinless and the words of scripture.

You choose to insist that scripture and therefore “God” say explicitly something which is not said.

It is this assertion with which I am arguing, and nothing more.

Chuck

 

[emeraldisle]

I see the source of your confusion. You are inconsistent in your fundamentalism. You are either parroting someone elses (wrong) interpretation of scripture that someone has taught you or your inconsistency arises from an irrational condition that can not be remedied through logical means. In other words its pointless to speak to you further because no appeals to reason will be successful in an obdurate and closed mind or in one that can not be reasoned with due to an irrational condition. Your only alternative now is to pray on it or if still in command of your senses abandon the pretense of objectivity and start learning the truth.

I’ll be praying for you but it normally takes a long time for people like you to develop critical thinking and the maturity of thinking to break the fundamentalist trap that Satan uses to deny God’s children from the fullness of God’s blessings.

Good Luck,
James

When one is unable to present a case for their argument they usually try to discredit the person they are in discussion with. So you obviously have resorted to criticizing me because you have failed to present a biblical case for the idea that Mary was sinless.
.

 

[emeraldisle]

Of course not, she was part of humanity, though she was given a special individual grace as the Mother of God to keep her free from sin, both original and personal; much like her Son who was fully human yet free from sin.

I’ve already explained that Jesus was sinless because He was God/Man. Also God tells us in His written Word that Jesus is sinless.

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

However God doesn’t tell us in His written word that Mary was sinless but He tells us all of humanity is sinful and of course Mary as a human being is part of sinful humanity.
.

.

 

[guanophore]

This is the problem, “the Church teaches”, I’m seeking to find out what God teaches us from His written Word. I trust God and I believe what He teaches in His written Word.

I believe that you are truly seeking that, emeraldisle. However, if you proceed from a faulty premise, you will end up with a faulty conclusion. I also believe that you trust God, as is clear in your posts. However, since your trust is so limited, that means you will have limits to what you can discover. Jesus commissioned the Church to teach. That is her duty. The Bible does not “teach”. This is a ministry of the church.

Once people go outside Gods written Word then they get into false teaching. That is why God has given us His written Word so that we can test all teaching to see whether its true or false.

This is the false premise, and is well stated. In fact, Jesus taught everything to His Apostles, and commissioned them to teach it, and gave them authority over the message, and the operation of the Church. The Church then produced the written word, to assist in the duty they had been given. The two were never meant to be separated. The custodian of the Word is the Church, whether it is in the Sacred Writings, or the Sacred Teaching.

Where does it say in the Bible that Mary was created without original sin?

I cannot provide you with anything more or better than what has already been posted on this thread. Personally, I think trying to base any of the Marian doctrines (except virgin birth) is very difficult if one is limited to scripture alone.

Jesus and His Apostles were not so limited, and the Church was never either, until just the past few hundred years when all these new doctrines emerged. Even the Reformers accepted some Sacred Tradition.

 

[Mach1Man]

I have looked in many dictionary’s and not one of them said that grace means sinless,

 

[LilyM]

Yes its amazing that God chose a simple human being called Mary to give birth to the Lord Jesus and what a blessing this was for Mary. So yes Mary is blessed and of course we know this is true because God has told us so in His written Word. But Mary being sinless well we know this isn’t true because God hasn’t told us in His written Word that Mary was sinless. In fact God tells us in His written Word that Mary as a human being was a sinner like all of sinful humanity.

*And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
Luke 1:28
.
*

I think I’ve said this before - God didn’t just choose her, he created her from the toenails up. Huge difference.

He created her knowing from all eternity that her task would require something special, namely freedom from original and personal sin.

If you build a house for yourself you’re going to make it as perfect as you can. How perfect can God make His own dwelling place?

When God commanded houses to be built for Himself - the Ark of the Covenant, the Temple - they were made with the best and finest materials and craftsmanship.

Why would He do less for Mary whose own body was to become His dwelling place and Temple?

 

[bookgirl32]

Of course Gods written Word does tell us that Jesus was sinless but it doesn’t tell us Mary was sinless.

You do know that Jesus is the Word, correct? The Bible is a form of His revelation, one of the records of His actions and teachings OF the Word. The Bible is not THE Word. I’m concerned that you’re capitalizing “Word” when speaking of the Bible. Check out John 1:1.

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

And what are you trying to prove here?

The following Scriptures clearly tell us all of humanity is sinful and of course we know that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12
.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:23

Again, here, it doesn’t say Mary sinned. It also says ALL sinned and we know that Jesus did not. So do these passages mean that God COULD NOT (or did not) choose to make one person sinless in order to aide all of humanity which is sinful? No. It doesn’t say it either. The Bible, although the truth, does not limit God. God “wrote” the Bible, not the other way around.

 

[guanophore]

Now you have raised another point to prove that Mary wasn’t sinless, the Lord Jesus never once said that Mary was sinless.

On the contrary, this is exactly how we understand Jesus’ use of the title “Woman” for His mother. This term is only used for Eve, who was created without sin.

Most modern Western folks understand this term totally oppositely, in a derogatory manner, but in the Palestine of Jesus, it was not used in such a manner.

 

[bookgirl32]

And, hey, Emerald, do you have that Trinity verse yet, or are you still looking?

 

[clmowry]

Time to “dust’m off” and leave this thread behind.

Good luck everybody.

God bless you.

Chuck

 

[CentralFLJames]

When one is unable to present a case for their argument they usually try to discredit the person they are in discussion with. So you obviously have resorted to criticizing me because you have failed to present a biblical case for the idea that Mary was sinless.
.

You came to this Catholic Forum to ask questions and learn about Catholicism not to teach us correct? The people of Jesus time did the same thing. Those that did not get the answers they wanted simply part company just like those who did not believe in real presence did on John 6:66. You have asked your questions and rephrased them in every different combination and have gotten the same consistent teaching that Jesus & the HS gave us. If you are not happy with the answer you have been given you are free to separate yourself from us just like those who abandoned Christ in John 6:66 did. But I think you are insincere and are really here not to learn but to spam the forums with repetitious pontification. You do not answer people’s counter questions and you rudely just drone on and on and have said nothing substantially different than you have in your first few posts. I don’t think that a slow drip water torture is a valid form of baptism nor do I think it is an effective form of proselytizing. On that latter point if you are here to proseltyze Catholics away from their faith (against forum rules) you should be aware that no one generally will listen seriously to a person who insists on their own private interpretation while denying others theirs.

So really, all you are doing is wasting your own time and ours at this point.

James

 

[moondweller]

But the bible itself flows from tradition and oral teaching. Taking your line of analysis we can then say that the OP question is illicitly formed from a false presumption that the Bible does not flow from tradition.

The Scriptures don’t flow from tradition or any oral teachings. They “flow” straight from the mind of God - they’re theopneustos (God-breathed, 2 Tim. 3:16). The O.P.'s question is a valid one because he’s essentially asking where in the mind of God is the sinlessness of Mary? Only God is omniscient, ergo, only God Himself could reveal something as intimate as a person’s sinlessness which, according to the Scriptures, for Adam’s posterity would be an extraordinary anomaly. The truth of such a phenomenon would have to come straight from the mind of God, in other words, the theopneustos (God-breathed) Scriptures. But all we have is silence. They clearly testify of the sinlessness of the Man Christ Jesus, but not of the woman who bore Him. Instead the Scriptures portray her as quintessential in every way. Nothing extraordinary about her birth or her life up until the Annunciation. One would certainly have to conclude, based on the mind of God, that true Christianity, which is based on Divine revelation, isn’t at all about the mother but the Son.

 

[LilyM]

The Scriptures don’t flow from tradition or any oral teachings. They “flow” straight from the mind of God - they’re theopneustos (God-breathed, 2 Tim. 3:16). The O.P.'s question is a valid one because he’s essentially asking where in the mind of God is the sinlessness of Mary? Only God is omniscient, ergo, only God Himself could reveal something as intimate as a person’s sinlessness which, according to the Scriptures, for Adam’s posterity would be an extraordinary anomaly. The truth of such a phenomenon would have to come straight from the mind of God, in other words, the theopneustos (God-breathed) Scriptures. But all we have is silence. They clearly testify of the sinlessness of the Man Christ Jesus, but not of the woman who bore Him. Instead the Scriptures portray her as quintessential in every way. Nothing extraordinary about her birth or her life up until the Annunciation. One would certainly have to conclude, based on the mind of God, that true Christianity, which is based on Divine revelation, isn’t at all about the mother but the Son.

Your only mistake here is in thinking that the Bible is the ONLY God-breathed Revelation - in fact ALL Apostolic teaching, whether passed down in scripture, other writings (such as the testimony of early Christians as to what theyd been taught, or the Apostles and Nicene Creeds) or oral tradition - is equally God breathed, being equally inspired by the Holy Spirit.

It is from these extra-biblical sources that we are taught, for example, which writings actually are scriptural, Sunday worship, the nature of Christ and all manner of other common Christian doctrine.

Simply God used the latter two means (written and oral tradition) especially (with some hints in Scripture as well) in regard to the doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness, as He did with the other doctrines I’ve mentioned.

 

[CentralFLJames]

When one is unable to present a case for their argument they usually try to discredit the person they are in discussion with. .

Let me make one final comment to you since I don’t question your faith in Jesus but I question your sincerity on why you are here.

I personally think you are the sort of person who only sees apparent contradictions in the bible when it suits your own biases or agendas - when scripture seems to contradicts Catholic teaching and dogma.

Well, I have news for you. There are people just like you in these forums who not only hate God’s Catholic Church but also hate God and all who call themselves Christians. These love to find fundamentalist oriented Christians who rely on a shallow theology and rote understanding but lack the depth of history, tradition and Church Teaching behind the scriptures. These love to make sport of fundamentalists and try to make them lose their faith by showing them all the many apparent contradictions in the Bible.

Here is some Christian advice. If you are going to keep the faith as a Christian you need to get your roots down deep into good soil so that when one of these non-believers confronts you that you can deflect the arguments from more than just rote recital of scripture. Consider too that a stubborn faith is not really a mature faith and God wants us to be all that we are made to be. Catholic teaching can help you get a deeper understanding.

The following book is anathema to most fundamentalists. It was written by anti-Christians to make sport of fundamentalist Christians to make them look foolish. I suggest you read it and see if you are going to be able to reconcile a fundamentalist perspective against this sort of assault.

Self-Contradictions of the Bible

Here are a few examples that you will not be able to defeat from literal scripture alone. The only way to defeat these apparent contradictions is to understand the true teaching and histories and traditions as taught by the Catholic Church. Learn the proper response to these then you will be able to come back here and ask more engaging questions and respond with more tractionable replies other than just the “because the bible tells me so” kinds of Sunday school sorts of responses.

Examples of Apparent Bible Contradictions:

Does every man sin?
KI1 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;
*CH2 6:36 *If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;
PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
*ECC 7:20 *For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
*JO1 1:8 *If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
*JO1 1:9 *If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
*JO1 1:10 *If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

God good to all, or just a few?
*PSA 145:9 *The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
War or Peace?
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with youall. Amen.

Is it folly to be wise or not?
*PRO 4:7 *Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
*ECC 1:18 *For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
1 Cor.1:19: “For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

Moses’ personality
Num.12:3: “Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth.”
Num.31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth…And Moses said unto them, “Have ye saved all the women alive? … Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, … But all the women children … keep alive for yourselves.”

Was Judas an incompetent suicidal who needed 2 tries?
Matt. 27:5-7: “And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests…bought with them the potter’s field.”
Acts 1:18: “Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”

God be seen?
*Exod. 24:9,10; Amos 9:1; Gen. 26:2; and John 14:9 *
God CAN be seen:
“And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts.” (Ex. 33:23)
“And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.” (Ex. 33:11)
“For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Gen. 32:30)
He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. (John 12:45

God CANNOT be seen:
“No man hath seen God at any time.” (John 1:18)
“And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live.” (Ex. 33:20)
“Whom no man hath seen nor can see.” (1 Tim. 6:16)

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

The Scriptures don’t flow from tradition or any oral teachings. They “flow” straight from the mind of God - they’re theopneustos (God-breathed, 2 Tim. 3:16). The O.P.'s question is a valid one because he’s essentially asking where in the mind of God is the sinlessness of Mary? Only God is omniscient, ergo, only God Himself could reveal something as intimate as a person’s sinlessness which, according to the Scriptures, for Adam’s posterity would be an extraordinary anomaly. The truth of such a phenomenon would have to come straight from the mind of God, in other words, the theopneustos (God-breathed) Scriptures. But all we have is silence. They clearly testify of the sinlessness of the Man Christ Jesus, but not of the woman who bore Him. Instead the Scriptures portray her as quintessential in every way. Nothing extraordinary about her birth or her life up until the Annunciation. One would certainly have to conclude, based on the mind of God, that true Christianity, which is based on Divine revelation, isn’t at all about the mother but the Son.

Nonsense. Nothing went straight to written word in cohesive form for 400 or so years. I’d like to research the usage history on the protestant phrase “God Breathed” since I don’t think the ECF mention it much but it does pop up with about as much frequency as “Jesus saves” and “Hallelujah” when talking to Protestants. I suppose you don’t recall that Jesus breathed on the apostles after His resurrection when he gave them the full authority of forgiving sins? God’s word did not get into the separate parchments that originate our bible for another 40 or so years after spoken (and breathed on) nor make it into official Catholic cannon for about 400 years. Since every single original scripture manuscript is lost do you imagine God wasted His breath? I don’t think so. I just bet you that God’s word echoed all over the place through spoken word and tradition for those intervening 400 years.

The only silence we Catholics hear is when we ask Protestants by what authority they teach and interpret Holy Scripture and why they don’t confess their sins and the other things that scripture tells them they must do to have eternal life.

James

 

[guanophore]

The Scriptures don’t flow from tradition or any oral teachings. They “flow” straight from the mind of God - they’re theopneustos (God-breathed, 2 Tim. 3:16).

I am surprised to read this. Yes, the scriptures are theopneustos. They are the teachings of the Apostles. Therefore, the Teachings are infallible. Or do you think the Apostles were teaching the imaginations of men for 20 years before they began to be written?

The preached word from the Apostles (Sacred Tradition) is the Word of God, and the Scriptures document that preaching. The entire NT came from the Teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. That is what is meant when we say they “flow”. The Gospel is from the mind of God, even before it was written down.

The O.P.'s question is a valid one because he’s essentially asking where in the mind of God is the sinlessness of Mary? Only God is omniscient, ergo, only God Himself could reveal something as intimate as a person’s sinlessness which, according to the Scriptures, for Adam’s posterity would be an extraordinary anomaly.

I agree that the sinlessness of Mary came from the mind of God, and that this can only been revealed by Him. I also agree that creating a human being without sin is an extraordinary anomaly.

The truth of such a phenomenon would have to come straight from the mind of God, in other words, the theopneustos (God-breathed) Scriptures. But all we have is silence.

The mind of God is not restricted to, or bound up within the Sacred Writings. Also, those writings may seem “silent” to you, but for those of Apostolic faiths, they speak volumes.

One would certainly have to conclude, based on the mind of God, that true Christianity, which is based on Divine revelation, isn’t at all about the mother but the Son.

There is no distinction between the two. Mary, the first Christian, is “in Christ” to all eternity. Where her Divine Son is found, she is at His side, just as she was throughout His earthly life.

 

[sandusky]

CentralFLJames:

Here are a few examples that you will not be able to defeat from literal scripture alone. The only way to defeat these apparent contradictions is to understand the true teaching and histories and traditions as taught by the Catholic Church. Learn the proper response to these then you will be able to come back here and ask more engaging questions and respond with more tractionable replies other than just the “because the bible tells me so” kinds of Sunday school sorts of responses.

James, NCs have been asking you many of the questions that you’ve listed from Scripture in your post #812, and all you can answer is, ”because my church’s tradition tells me so!”

 

[sandusky]

Your only mistake here is in thinking that the Bible is the ONLY God-breathed Revelation - in fact ALL Apostolic teaching, whether passed down in scripture, other writings (such as the testimony of early Christians as to what theyd been taught, or the Apostles and Nicene Creeds) or oral tradition - is equally God breathed, being equally inspired by the Holy Spirit.

It is from these extra-biblical sources that we are taught, for example, which writings actually are scriptural, Sunday worship, the nature of Christ and all manner of other common Christian doctrine.

Simply God used the latter two means (written and oral tradition) especially (with some hints in Scripture as well) in regard to the doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness, as He did with the other doctrines I’ve mentioned.

That’s not true, Lily. The authors of creeds and post apostolic writings claim inspiration from Scripture, but the creeds and writings are not theopneustos. :nope: