Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

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Gen. 1:9
“This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

Job 1:1
“In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.”

God even confirmed this Himself - Job 1:8
“Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Luke 1:5-6
*“In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.” *
I don’t see anything in these verses that says these people were sinless.
Personal sinlessness is not impossible. As you indirectly show in your quotation of 2. Pet. 2. This passage is exhorting us to avoid personal sin, no?
But if it is impossible for anyone to avoid personally sinning, how can scripture say we are called to follow in Christ’s steps, which were sinless?
How could Christ have set a sinless “example” to be followed that is impossible to follow? Was Peter wrong? Is Scripture wrong?
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10*
I say “No”. The teaching that Mary was free of personal sin is not contradictory to the Bible. Like her salvation from original sin, this freedom from personal sin was not due to her own merit, but to a special gift of grace that God bestowed on His mother.
The evidence that Mary was sinless is tradition but Gods written Word says all of humanity is sinful and Mary being a human being was a sinner, period.
*
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12*
When you start with such flawed presumptions, little wonder you think they say different & contradictory things.
Is believing what God has said in His written Word flawed presumption?
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I don’t see anything in these verses that says these people were sinless.
What’s your definition of “righteous”? How about “blameless,” or “upright”? :confused:

Though born into Original Sin, these individuals were without personal sin at the particular moment of time being referred to. (Noah did commit sin directly after the Ark landed on the mountain, but not before that - at the time that God chose him to be saved, he had never yet committed any sins - this is, in fact, the very reason that God chose him.)
 
I’m simply pointing out a flaw in emeraldisle’s reasoning. He (she?) has stated he won’t believe Mary is sinless unless it’s specifically stated in the Bible.
I’ve simply pointed out the fact that God says in His written Word that all of humanity is sinful and Mary being a human being was a sinner. This is why God hasn’t stated in His written Word that Mary was sinless because to do so would mean that He would have contradicted Himself.

IMO the flawed reasoning is to go against what God says in His written Word. This is what tradition is doing when it says Mary was sinless but in fact God says in His written Word that Mary wasn’t sinless.
Right now I’m interested in the logic behind the argument, not the argument itself. Okay? So please stick to this subject with me.
I’m interested in what God actually says about Mary; for me it’s an issue of “Gods truth in His written Word” and not “mans logic”.

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What’s your definition of “righteous”? How about “blameless,” or “upright”? :confused:

Though born into Original Sin, these individuals were without personal sin at the particular moment of time being referred to. (Noah did commit sin directly after the Ark landed on the mountain, but not before that - at the time that God chose him to be saved, he had never yet committed any sins - this is, in fact, the very reason that God chose him.)
Sinless means what it says sinless, i.e someone without sin, period.

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The evidence that Mary was sinless is tradition but Gods written Word says all of humanity is sinful and Mary being a human being was a sinner, period.
*
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12*
But I just made a case proving that Mary as sinless is supported and even required by scripture.

OK let’s go at this the other way. Please show us in scripture were Tradition and the Teaching of The Church is condemned.

James
 
Sinless means what it says sinless, i.e someone without sin, period.

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What’s your definition of sin? Maybe you are thinking that someone who could choose to sin is “sinful”?

(Just for the record, my definition of “sin” is the action of deliberately and knowingly breaking God’s law, either for personal gain or for the purpose of offending God. Someone who has never done such a thing is “without sin.”)
 
… but in fact God says in His written Word that Mary wasn’t sinless.
Are we using the same Word of God? Can you point the the chapter and verse where it says “Mary wasn’t sinless”?

You can’t use any Protestant or anti-Catholic teaching books here - use scripture.

James
 
Sinless means what it says sinless, i.e someone without sin, period.

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Let’s start off in baby steps to get you to the truth. So, immediately after Baptism a person is not sinless? Do you not believe the scriptures that tell us a person can be utterly free of sin through being Baptised?

James
 
Gods written Word says all of humanity is sinful and Mary being a human being was a sinner, period.
Her holiness has nothing to do with her person but with her role in Salvation history. Salvation is through the Man Jesus Christ or the Humanity of God the Word Incarnate Who mediates salvation to us through that Humanity. That Humanity is what God took from the body of the Virgin Mary.
(Alexander Roman)
 
God says in His written Word that Jesus would be born of a virgin and He was.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isa 7:14
  • Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. Luke 1:26-28 & 34-35*

But does God say in His written Word that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin; no He doesn’t and so He wasn’t.

God didn’t need Mary to be sinless, it was Jesus who needed to be sinless so He could redeem sinful humanity which includes you, me and Mary.

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IMO the flawed reasoning is to go against what God says in His written Word.
The only man-made doctrine that is to be rejected here is that Scriptures and the Church are at odds with one another. Without the Church, we would not have the 27 books of the New Testament. Even with the New Testament, the Church had to defend orthodox doctrine about the Trinity and Christ that was attacked by Arians, Nestorians and other heretics in the first 1000 years of the Church’s history. The heretics had the 27 books, and yet came to different conclusions about Christ’s Divinity et alia. Again, it fell to the Church to affirm and outline clearly what the Scriptures teach about Christ’s Divinity, the Holy Trinity and Salvation.
(Alexander Roman)
 
God didn’t need Mary to be sinless, it was Jesus who needed to be sinless so He could redeem sinful humanity which includes you, me and Mary.
This is a bit presumptuous isn’t it? Deciding for God what He did or didn’t need?

I know you can’t point this one out in scripture.
 
And when did we ever say that Mary didn’t need to be saved? It was the TIME at which she was saved that we’re debating here. We’re certainly not saying she granted herself “sinlessness”.
 
This is a bit presumptuous isn’t it? Deciding for God what He did or didn’t need?
Actually, Mary’s sinlessness IS understood as “fitting” rather than “needful.” But then, strictly speaking, we do not understand the cross as “needful” since God could have saved us all by a wave of His ineffable Hand.
 
All right, on page 67 of this thread, time to blast through with a few paragraphs from my awesome article on the Immaculate Conception:

The conviction of the patristic writers relative to her holiness is founded, necessarily, in revealed truth which became more explicit with the passing of time. In denying that she herself had ever sinned, the Fathers placed her merit in a distinct class above the rest of humanity, and no eulogy was too great to describe her, nor were any words adequate to convey the measure of her holiness. She was

"most pure"; “inviolate”; “unstained”; “unspotted”; “blameless”; “entirely immune from sin”; “blessed above all”; "most innocent."

If she was free from sin without qualification, then why not also from original sin? Assuredly, this freedom excluded deliberate venial sin, and hence with greater reason it should exclude the deprivation of grace implied in original sin, for while venial sin is more voluntary, nevertheless, simply as sin and with its conjoined ignominy, the consequences of original sin are more serious and more unbecoming to the Mother of Christ since it would put her at odds with God. As St. Anselm stated (and he reflects the common mind of the writers on this point): “It was fitting that the Virgin should be radiant with such purity that under God no other can be greater” (De conc virg, c. 18; PL 158:451).

“In such allusions the Fathers taught that the exalted dignity of the Mother of God, her spotless innocence, and her sanctity unstained by any fault, had been prophesied in a wonderful manner…they celebrated the august Virgin as the spotless dove, as the holy Jerusalem, as the exalted throne of God, as the ark and house of holiness which Eternal Wisdom built, and as that Queen who, abounding in delights and leaning on her Beloved, came forth from the mouth of the Most High, entirely perfect, beautiful, most dear to God and never stained with the least blemish.” (Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, 12/8/1854)

Although neither the Greek nor the Latin Fathers explicitly (explicite) teach an immaculate conception of Mary; still, they teach it implicitly (implicite), in two fundamental notions:

– Mary’s most perfect purity and holiness

St. Ephrem says: “Thou and thy mother are the only ones who are totally beautiful in every respect; for in thee, O Lord, there is no spot, and in thy Mother no stain [of sin]” (Carm Nisib 27). The firm stand of the Syrian Church regarding the utter sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin, is also evinced in the writings of such renowned figures as St. James of Sarug (c. 451-519), who denied that there was the slightest defect or stain upon the soul of Mary.

St. Augustine says that all men must confess themselves sinners, “except the Holy Virgin Mary, whom I desire, for the sake of the honor of the Lord, to leave entirely out of the question, when the talk is of sin” (On Nature and Grace or De natura et gratia 36:42). According to the context, this is at least freedom from all personal sins. Juniper Carol’s Mariology: “St. Augustine’s opinion is the real attitude of Christian antiquity.”

– the similarity and contrast between Mary and Eve

Mary is the Second or New Eve. Mary is, on the one hand, a replica of Eve in her purity and integrity before the Fall (i.e. sinless), on the other hand, the antitype of Eve, in so far as Eve is the cause of corruption, and Mary the cause of salvation.

St. Ephrem (c. 330) teaches: “Mary and Eve, two people without guilt, two simple people, were identical. Later, however, one became the cause of our death, the other the cause of our life” (Op syr II, 327). St. Justin Martyr (c. 100 - 167) was perhaps the first to invoke this beautiful antithesis:

“While still a virgin and without corruption, Eve received into her heart the word of the serpent and thereby conceived disobedience and death. Mary the Virgin, her soul full of faith and joy, replied to the angel Gabriel who brought her glad tidings: ‘Be it done to me according to thy word.’ To her was born He of whom so many things are said in the Scriptures.” (St. Justin, Dial Tryph Jud 100; cf. St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Adv haer III:22:4; Tertullian, De carne Christi 17).

Individual Greek Fathers (Origen, St. Basil the Great, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Alexandria) taught that Mary suffered from venial personal faults: such as ambition and vanity, doubt about the message of the Angel, lack of faith under the cross, etc. The Latin patristic authors are (virtually) unanimous in teaching the doctrine of the sinlessness of Mary. St. Augustine teaches that every personal sin must be excluded from the Blessed Virgin Mary for the sake of the honor of God (propter honorem Domini). St. Ambrose says she is virgin in both body and mind, who by God’s grace was made free from all sin (omni integra labe peccati). St. Ephrem the Syrian puts Mary in her immaculateness on the same plane as Christ. According to the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, the fullness of grace which Mary received in the passive conception implied confirmation in grace and therefore sinlessness (ST III:27:5 ad 2).

In a few paragraphs, that’s why the Immaculate Conception came to be defined. Thank you. And see you on page 175 of this thread again in the year 2011. Just checking in for now. 😃

Phil P
 
…* for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12*
If I am not mistaken, and I apologize if this was already discussed, the word that St Paul uses here is “polloi”. The more accurate translation would be “many”, not “all”.

Just a quick linguistic issue (though I am far from an expert). :o
 
Although neither the Greek nor the Latin Fathers explicitly (explicite) teach an immaculate conception of Mary; still, they teach it implicitly (implicite), in two fundamental notions:
Disagree.

The IC is an innovation.

The often quoted Latin Catholic theologian, saint, and doctor of the Church–Thomas Aquinas–did not subscribe to this strange dogma.
 
If I am not mistaken, and I apologize if this was already discussed, the word that St Paul uses here is “polloi”. The more accurate translation would be “many”, not “all”.

Just a quick linguistic issue (though I am far from an expert). :o
It’s “pas,” all.
 
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