Why doesn't the Catholic Church catechize its members??

[rskempf]

In my experience, we do want the faith. We want it as if our eternal life depended on it. I am trying to support our parish by using the resources it provides, that are sometimes mandatory.

For example, we cannot be confirmed unless completing the youth ministry program. This is a small-group format in the home of volunteer parent leaders. My daughter is the only one in the group, including the facilitators/leaders, that attends mass regularly. This was discovered by a survey during the first session. The leaders even admitted they do not follow the precept of the church - Sunday mass. Now, I am allowing for Saturday night vigil here. Do not get me wrong, this parish is in need of a serious overhaul.

And yes, I did volunteer to be a leader in my home but was rejected. I have bumped heads with the establishment in our parish and have asked too many questions. I have been “labeled” and ostracized.

I will stay with the parish, teach my kids at home, and keep growing my faith. Someday, I will have another chance to help this organization. I know how the story ends, in the words of Father John Corapi - we win. I will keep calm and keep looking for opportunities.

For those of you out there that are tired of church leaders being criticized - be careful. There are some church leaders that need to change but are being obstinate in their position. A position that is obviously not aligned with the Magisterium. A heretical position. We as parents have to suffer. Sure we can go to another parish but it is more noble to take a stand and defend our own parish. To defend our mother church.

We are not criticizing to be vengeful. We are relating the issues we face. Issues that are damaging our church. If we work together, we can make a difference.

 

[1edyson]

The laity is part of the church, and it is, I feel, our job to do the grunt work on this one. The primary role of the ordained is to administer the Sacraments, the laity should be the ones out there in and among our fellows Catholics. So lets pick up our cumulative boot straps and lets do this!

 

[Hesychios]

The number of Christians who walk about with (I’d say) a fourth grade level of Christian understanding is visibly tragic. This is a problem in the Latin Catholic church of course, but by no means only there!

I would like to put forth the radical idea that parish level Christian elementary schools are not the real answer to this problem. Expanding these and establishing new ones could be a fruitless exercise.

Why? Perhaps because the public (incorrectly) learned a long time ago, even generations ago, that they could abdicate the responsibility for raising up their children in the Faith to the institution.

The faulty catechesis issue is chronic and (after all this time) cultural, and it actually stems back to a time long before the second Vatican Council. In other words, it is not just young people who are severely lacking, there are many people of advanced age and in-between with the same problem.

From my observation some parishes have as many or more than 10,000 parishioners, and yet are really in maintenance mode. In other words the laity are disconnected and the clergy, manfully overworked and giving their own best, are struggling to get beyond providing ‘basic services’.

Each generation needs to be evangelized anew, and that has not been happening. The church needs to employ some dynamic alternative approaches. Initially by recognizing that the the most economically advanced regions of the world (IOW old Christendom and north America) are new missionary frontiers.

 

[bpbasilphx]

The faulty catechesis issue is chronic and (after all this time) cultural, and it actually stems back to a time long before the second Vatican Council. In other words, it is not just young people who are severely lacking, there are many people of advanced age and in-between with the same problem.

---

This is very true. I’ve seen some strange things believed by those who called themselves “traditional Catholics” expressed on these boards.

 

[rskempf]

In response to the post by Hesychios above, this sentiment was related to me recently through a video by Father John Corapi. I believe it was on the campus of Notre Dame the same day our president visited there last month.

Father Corapi traveled to Notre Dame to support the local Bishop and strengthen the brothers and sisters in Christ. His speech was invigorating. Anyway, he stated the following.

“If you want your children to lose their faith, send them to a catholic school. If you want to teach them how to defend their faith, send them to a public school”.

What he is saying here is you cannot abdicate your role as parent and primary teacher with parochial education. He admitted, there are some good catholic schools out there. You can find them if you search carefully. For the most part, you are better off to take a strong position with the faith in the home and raise God’s children in a strong faith-filled environment.

My wife and I are following this path in our home now. I can tell you, we have some very interesting conversations at the dinner table about faith, and the quest for eternal life. My daughter has friends at school that are: humanistic jew (atheist), protestant evangelical, protestant lukewarm, jewish, and agnostic. This group of high school girls are pretty good friends. However, not a week goes by that we discover a flaw in the logic these groups represent. At dinner time, we review their conversatons and learn a great deal. Through this exercise, we are growing stronger in our faith, and as a family.

I hope you can enjoy some of this experience also. It is rewarding. I only wish our local parish was more … catholic.

In spite of this situation, we are still seeking others in our community that appreciate the faith, appreciate objective truth and are loyal to our church. We find a few on occasion and are very grateful. As a group, we support and strengthen each other in the faith. I hope in this way I can “die to self, and yield 30, 60, or even an hundred-fold.”

Let’s support each other, share the faith, share teaching tips, and continue the quest - the quest for eternal life.

God bless you all!

PS: We read the *Faith and Life *catechism series from Ignatius Press after dinner, one chapter at a time. It is really good! We just get the student book and do not bother with the teacher manuals or other materials. It is just plain wonderful. Please check it out.

 

[jmjconder]

In response to the post by Hesychios above, this sentiment was related to me recently through a video by Father John Corapi. I believe it was on the campus of Notre Dame the same day our president visited there last month.

Father Corapi traveled to Notre Dame to support the local Bishop and strengthen the brothers and sisters in Christ. His speech was invigorating. Anyway, he stated the following.

“If you want your children to lose their faith, send them to a catholic school. If you want to teach them how to defend their faith, send them to a public school”.

What he is saying here is you cannot abdicate your role as parent and primary teacher with parochial education. He admitted, there are some good catholic schools out there. You can find them if you search carefully. For the most part, you are better off to take a strong position with the faith in the home and raise God’s children in a strong faith-filled environment.

My wife and I are following this path in our home now. I can tell you, we have some very interesting conversations at the dinner table about faith, and the quest for eternal life. My daughter has friends at school that are: humanistic jew (atheist), protestant evangelical, protestant lukewarm, jewish, and agnostic. This group of high school girls are pretty good friends. However, not a week goes by that we discover a flaw in the logic these groups represent. At dinner time, we review their conversatons and learn a great deal. Through this exercise, we are growing stronger in our faith, and as a family.

I hope you can enjoy some of this experience also. It is rewarding. I only wish our local parish was more … catholic.

In spite of this situation, we are still seeking others in our community that appreciate the faith, appreciate objective truth and are loyal to our church. We find a few on occasion and are very grateful. As a group, we support and strengthen each other in the faith. I hope in this way I can “die to self, and yield 30, 60, or even an hundred-fold.”

Let’s support each other, share the faith, share teaching tips, and continue the quest - the quest for eternal life.

God bless you all!

PS: We read the *Faith and Life *catechism series from Ignatius Press after dinner, one chapter at a time. It is really good! We just get the student book and do not bother with the teacher manuals or other materials. It is just plain wonderful. Please check it out.

God Bless you and your family ~ you are a living example of what I believe…you are the Domestic Church and that is the Church that is the first and primary educators in the faith. Not CCD classes…not the local parish…not Confirmation classes…not Diocesan programs…not the pastor…do they have a responsibility? Yes! However they are not according to all the Church documents the primary educators…it is the parents. In fact one Church document says the parents are “irreplaceable” in that role. Thank you for taking your role seriously…and using such solid materials.

I will pray for your family…may God bless you abundantly!

 

[ferdie]

distracted;5321750 This is virtually the only criticism i have of the Church… it doesn’t teach its members the Faith…

Well actually the Church continually teaches us, it just happen that a lot of us don’t listen and apply our own private interpretations. We trust too much in our own knowledge that most of the time we reject the teaching authority of the Church.

It seems the Church is getting rid of more & more Catholic schools… something even non-Catholics don’t like because they like to send their children there to LEARN… even if thye have no intention of becoming Catholic…
There are no Catholic orphanages anymore, no unwed mothers’ homes… that i know of…

.All the things you mentioned requires funding. I guess we are not contributing enough???

something really awful is going on here…
and it is causing many, many people to sin… and as we all know, sin leads to Hell - or long stays in excrucitating Purgatory…
sometimes it seems the RCC doesn’t care (generally speaking)…

It may seem that the Church doesn’t care, but it does. Keep praying my friend. We are here to suffer for the Glory of God.

 

[workingman]

I am new to the CC but this is somthing that I see. The CC needs to be remodeld the CCC. It is realy that simple. the version that I own is realy hard to crossreferance. I came out of the LCMS. I think that maby as a model they should look at the layout of Luthers Small Catechism and The Book of Concordia. Also find a easier way to crossrefferance the paragraphs with the documents and scripture. This may help a little. Though it does start at home. I know I work with my oldest who will be starting CCD this fall. Should be interesting.

 

[Louie1983]

I think there are numerous problems in regards to teaching the faith.

The first and biggest problem (personally) is that erroneous and incorrect teaching in the church has driven so many people away, there are so many people out there in the church who want to teach their opinions instead the mind of the church. I think the church has to crack down on things like these, i went to a catholic school and the faith was like another subject there, there was no real effort to teach the faith and the teachings of the church. This mixed with the scandals in the church in recent times has greatly damaged the church.

The second problem is major push by the world towards atheism or the opinion that the world can judge itself by worldy laws and not gods (i strongly blame the media outlets for this). Things like homosexuality being OK, Contraception, abortion etc all being paraded like they are OK to participate or that there is no sin involved with these things. They are convicing the world to move further and further away from god and closer to thinking that there is no need for God in our lives.

This is what the devil wants, to follow our own mind instead of God’s.

 

[adstrinity]

I feel the same way. I got involved as a catechist for seven years. I believe I did some good. We had DRE that was really anti-magisterium however. It went so far as:

• She, the DRE, leading the catechists several times in a spiritual exercise where everyone had to chant “Om Nama Shiviya, …”. this literally means, I bow to the god of shiva.
• She made scandalous statements toward Pope John Paul the Great, and Pope Benedict XVI in religious education board meetings

I SECOND THIS AND THE OP!!! I think the DRE’s are at fault. Whenever one has a DRE and it’s not a priest – be wary. And, as a matter of fact, if a priest isn’t teaching the class – be wary. …And, I know, as soon as I say that, people will post about how thankful they are THEIR priest ISN’T teaching…

Permit me to share this one again:

Anyway, I volunteered to teach Catholic Catechisis to 2nd graders who weren’t Catholic.

NONE of the Jesus Loves You Let’s All Feel Good texts had an Imprimatur or a Nahil Obstat. Strike 1.

One of the children (ther were only three) asked about Guardian Angels. I didn’t know the answer, but, I knew it was in the Bible, so, I did my research, and the next class, I had everybody read one passage from the Bible about guardian angels (and I read the longest). I did this so they would know it IS Biblical and not just a farie tale. …The DRE chastised me and told me not to read them the Bible as it would, “befuddle their little minds!”

I didn’t last a month at this volunteer position. They weren’t even paying me and I was, “fired.”

My friend thinks it’s hiLARious because the DRE used the Holy Spirit as an excuse to let me go…

I post this, in part, because I am still upset about it. I understand it is for the best, and there’s a reason it happened this way. That said, I am…disheartened that using the Bible and wanting to instruct these children in their faith was cause for termination.

Also, I must say, the RCIA class I went to to become Catholic, very watered down and we, I do not recall, were not told of the importance of Confession and Weekly Mass atendance…though, to be fair, I missed a class or two and I never did read the materials. The RCIA class I took as a refresher at St. John Cantius…MUCH better. The priest there did teach the Catholic faith.

 

[Peter_J]

my parish has 3 full time paid staff members and over 60 volunteers who have each completed over 150 hours formation devoted entirely to catechetical ministry, and we are typical of the average parish so I don’t quite know where you are coming from…

I don’t know what this has to do with catechesis.

a better question would be why, in a parish with 1800 families registered, and at least 18,000 residents who self-identify as Catholic, there are only about 800 children and 100 adults enrolled in the many catechetical programs we have available. And why many Catholics, unlike some of our Protestant brethren, cannot be bothered to take advantage of what is offered on weekend mornings and afternoons, after school, and weeknights.

since catechetics is my profession and ministry, I consider OP’s criticism to be directed to those like me, so we would really benefit from your suggestions on how to improve the situation. May I ask, if OP wants to share, are you involved in catechetical ministry in your parish or diocese? If not, why not?

My second suggestion would also involve looking at our separated brethren who tithe, generously, to support teaching ministries and to ask why Catholics do not do the same, and if those who share this criticism are willing to tithe to support good Catholic schools.

Many years ago (like before I was in high school and/or when I was just starting high school) I was a big fan of Dr. Peter Kreeft. My memory of his writings isn’t great (not surprisingly, given how long it’s been) but one thing that has stuck in my mind was when he said that the Pope is a shepherd, but the rest of the Bishops are just administrators. (That’s not an exact quote, but that was the gist of it. The only quote I’ve been able to find that comes close to it is: “Both the Pope and the people love it [the Latin mass] and want it, of course, but the middle management treats it like the plague.” If anyone recalls the other quote I’m thinking of, please help me out.)

Anyhow, the reason I bring this in here is, I wonder if this is a common thing – to blame the “middle management”?

 

[distracted]

Trouble in catechesis could be attributed by consequence to the trouble in the seminaries after Vatican II, which led to a more liberal clergy which de-emphasized the traditional Catholic faith.

But it’s not fair to blame everything on priests. Everyone has an obligation to share their faith. The Church does not consist only of the clergy, but of the laity as well. Everyone needs to do their part.

true but it does seem there are a lot of unorthodox priests these days… and it also appears to me that a lot of people don’t want to stand up against them… confront them on their anti-Catholic sounding homilies (statements therein)…

nothing changes if nothing changes…

 

[distracted]

Boy, ain’t that the truth. I’m a public school teacher, and the saying, “you can lead a horse to water…” really applies.

Distracted,
Perhaps misery loves company, but there are times I feel the same way about Lutheran catechesis. I also know that when parents and godparents bring a child for baptism, they promise to bring that child up in the faith, which means more than going to church every Christmas and Easter. We may feel like our respective communions aren’t doing as much as they can, but I think the bigger finger should be pointed at those of us who are parents and aren’t living up to our promise to Christ and our children.

Jon

maybe its one of those chicken-egg things… because my thought is: How can a person appreciate the full importance of knowing the Faith if one doesn’t KNOW the faith? So parents who “neglect” their children this way… don’t fully realize they are neglecting them because they don’t know the faith themselves

& they don’t know the faith so well because the Church isn’t teaching them… Priests know the faith (we hope)… so why are they reluctant to share @ least the important stuff… (example: how awful the consequences of fornication / homosexuality / masturbation). If as the saints say (& i totally belive) more people go to Hell over sexual sins, why are no priests (that i am aware of) speaking out against this ? i suppose part of the problem is they think the congregation isnt doing any of these things?? Hmmm…

I belive ALL (OK, most…?) churches (Cath & Pr) are becoming secularized to one extent or the other… I think that OSAS has a lot to do with the problem…Even churches that don’t officially teach osas might as well because… well, it just seems that a lot of people live like they believe in osas, all the while claiming thye do not…

i tend to think priests don’t come out against these kinds of things more (or more vehemently) because they don’t want to lose popularity w/ the congregation…

 

[distracted]

I feel the same way. I got involved as a catechist for seven years. I believe I did some good. We had DRE that was really anti-magisterium however. It went so far as:

• She, the DRE, leading the catechists several times in a spiritual exercise where everyone had to chant “Om Nama Shiviya, …”. this literally means, I bow to the god of shiva.
• She made scandalous statements toward Pope John Paul the Great, and Pope Benedict XVI in religious education board meetings

this is outrageous…
Who the — is Shiva anyway?? Not that i particulary need to know (?)… What did she say aabout our pope? I’d assume she doesn’t like him because he’s conservative…or rather Orthodox

I believe most of this chaos is normal just after a church council. As time expands between now and Vatican-II, we will see better results. I am a big proponent of Vatican-II. I just believe it caused a temporary state of confusion in the church.

i frankly am not crazy about what i know of (have seen of) Vatican II changes… I don’t like the handholding during the Our Father… or the greeting in the middle of Mass… i don’t like priests getting out of the pulpit during homilies… and interacting w/ the congregation (askign questions, etc)… I believe there were a lot of masons @ Vat II council & they influenced things more than we may ever know… Thankfully they didn’t get all they wanted… but they go Communion in hand… and it seems that Com in hand = irreverence. Plus people can take the HOst out of the Church and if they want desecrate it IHim)…

Why we needed this change is beyond me…

I remember some quotation i read yrs ago… don’t recall who said it… or the exact words but something to the effect that the most cold hearted people are the ones who most love change…

improvement is one thing, change (just for the sake of change) is another…

I am NOT talking about improvements… the greeting in the middle of Mass just gets the focus off God and onto (back onto) people… If someone is not too happy with you… they can give you the cold shouler… turn to someone s/he likes & be all smiles w/ that person…

that’s all we need - another opportunity to exhibit un-Christian behavior… durin Mass, of all places…

 

[JonNC]

maybe its one of those chicken-egg things… because my thought is: How can a person appreciate the full importance of knowing the Faith if one doesn’t KNOW the faith? So parents who “neglect” their children this way… don’t fully realize they are neglecting them because they don’t know the faith themselves

& they don’t know the faith so well because the Church isn’t teaching them… Priests know the faith (we hope)… so why are they reluctant to share @ least the important stuff… (example: how awful the consequences of fornication / homosexuality / masturbation). If as the saints say (& i totally belive) more people go to Hell over sexual sins, why are no priests (that i am aware of) speaking out against this ? i suppose part of the problem is they think the congregation isnt doing any of these things?? Hmmm…

I belive ALL (OK, most…?) churches (Cath & Pr) are becoming secularized to one extent or the other… I think that OSAS has a lot to do with the problem…Even churches that don’t officially teach osas might as well because… well, it just seems that a lot of people live like they believe in osas, all the while claiming thye do not…

i tend to think priests don’t come out against these kinds of things more (or more vehemently) because they don’t want to lose popularity w/ the congregation…

I kind of agree with what you say here. Our pastor is out of seminary less then three years, and he and I have talked about adult Christian ed, and reintroducing Lutheranism to Lutherans, like sermons/homilies that return focus to our Lutheran Confessions, and the early councils, etc.

An earlier post lays some blame at liberalism in seminaries. Well, Catholics have no corner on that, and I think it does play a part in moral education.

I think yours was a good post.
Jon

 

[distracted]

I I have never come across an official Church document that says it is the Church’s role to be the primary educator of the child. The role of the Church is merely to support the parents and be resources for them. It is the parents and family where the faith is to be taught.

what if the parents themselves don’t know???

There are numerous weekly reliable newspapers that will form our faith, periodicals, magazines, trustworthy publishing companies that we can increase our own knowledge on our own time, and exceptional web sites we can use.

yes but in this day and age… the days of onceSavedAlwaysSaved… (SO many people live as though they believe in osas), people aren’t necessarily going to go out of their way to learn things they don’t feel they need to learn (to get to Heaven). They will go to church, though, at least on Christmas & Easter… This would be the time for a priest to speak to the congregation on… whatever… I just don’t understand why so many priests are… apathetic about catechizing people… they (some) seem to be in a hurry to end the Mass…

i know something of wht i am speaking of. I was not taught the faith and out of ignorance, committed some sins/mistakes that have had horrendous consequences, not only to me but to those i came in contact w/. It has been a LONG, hard road dealing with the consequences and trying to un-do yrs of… doing things MY way… Thank God for the rosary, the Mass, the Real Presence, all things i was NOT taught about… did NOt have access to in those younger yrs…

*** My whole life is a testament to how needed*** the teachings of the Church are…

and the condition of the world in general is testament to the fact that soemthing is terribly WRONG… and leads to the inevitable conclusion that someone needs to do some catechizing!! and plenty of it!!

 

[distracted]

Actually I would argue otherwise, especially in regards to the younger generation. I’m 15 and in the Catholic School System, and I think it’s fair to say that most people there have learned virtually nothing about the faith in spite of the mandatory “Christian Education” class. In three years we’ve only covered Genesis, the Gospels (badly), and they’ve tried to teach us common sense things we already know regarding conscience and morality. I’ve talked to others about it, and they agree with me that Catholic Education should be more like “this is what we believe and why,” almost like it were a course in apologetics.

Believe me–I’ve learned more from reading Wikipedia articles on Catholic topics that what they’ve taught me over the course of three years. It’s actually kind of sad.

i didn’t even know (when young) that i was lacking anything… OK, once in awhile i got a clue of one sort or another… but i didn’t know where to look for help… How do you know where to look when you don’t even know that you NEED to look???

i also had the added problem of being emotionally not so… well off, shall we say… so i was Distracted… (long before i realized i was…)

anyway…

If i as a devout Christian can get tempted by various things going on in society… i know how frail all of us are… especially those who are NOT so devout… so committed… and this is why i am concerned…

we should tell everyone about Catholicism… We can’t say to God what Cain said, “Am i my brother’s keeper?”

 

[distracted]

II believe it was his Holiness Pope Benedict XVI that said we become a smaller church but we will be a stronger Church. .

i wish he would just excommunicate those who publicly promote abortion…

that would be SO cool!!!

do you know why he doesn’t???

 

[distracted]

I agree with conder. We are taught the basics and we are called to dive deeper into the faith. We must not act like babies who need help in everything, but use our adulthood to seek out the truth. And Catholic children are greatly catechized - first by their parents, second by their religious teachers, and third by the lives of the saints. But if the parents fail in their duties, or if the teachers fail, than it is them to blame, not the Catholic Church.

yes but if parents fail something must be done to fill the vacuum…

 

[distracted]

The

I think I’d want to rephrase the question and ask, "Why are people starving their minds to death from lack of knowledge, in a veritable Garden of Eden of books, and classes, and seminars? What is preventing them from taking advantage of the opportunities that abound all around them? It’s like seeing a hobo sitting under a fully loaded, ripe fruit tree, next to a clean rushing stream of water, and starve to death, because he can’t reach out his hand for what is right there, free for the taking.

i can only speak for myself, really… When i was younger, i didn’t know what was wrong with me… young people often don’t… they aren’t the most introspective people, usually… (although some older people… but anyway)…

In any case, i knew i needed Jesus but had this weird notion that I had fallen too far from him and he wouldn’t want me back … and even when i had a moment where i didn’t feel this way…well, i would go to a certain chruch (sometimes Cath sometimes not)… but it never did me much good… because i wasn’t catechized… and it was NOT my fault… and that is my point: it is not always the person’s fault s/he is not catechized… This catechesis should happen when one is a child (for maximum benefit). I believed whatever sounded good… which resulted in… well, you can imagine…

i think it kinda boils down to apathy…

people aren’t really all that caring what happens to others…

and its getting worse & worse…