Why doesn't the Pope do a Tridentine Mass?

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Actually the infallibility of the Roman Church is much more than a mere theological opinion. The proposition that “the Church of the city [diocese] of Rome can fall into error” is one of the theses of Peter de Osma, formally condemned by Pope Sixtus IV as erroneous and as containing manifest heresy.

With all due respect Brother, you cannot accuse me of a Protestant mind-set. The pope is the pope of the universal Church precisely because he is the Bishop of Rome. It is the bishop’s of Rome who are the successors of Saint Peter etc.

It is a matter of manifest Catholic doctrine that the episcopate of the local Church of Rome and the visible primacy of jurisdiction over the universal Church militant are not actually two episcopates, but constitute only one episcopal function.
This I agree with. But what I understood or maybe misunderstood before was that the pope was the Pope of Rome, which is very Protestant language.

Is the Bishop of Rome the Successor of Peter? Yes; therefore, he’s the pope.

Can the Bishop of Rome teach error in faith and morals? No, because he’s the pope.

Does the Bishop of Rome have to be pope? Yes, because it’s the See of Peter. It works the other way around too, the pope has to be bishop of Rome. No matter which way we turn the cookie, we come to the same place, the See of Rome and the Papacy are inseparable.

When the Bishop of Rome exercises administrative duties over the diocese, is this the same as other bishops? Yes, just like the Bishop of Baltimore or Hong Kong, etc. Every bishop administers his diocese and there are certain things that have to be done, which do not fall under the umbrella of infallibility.

The truth is that the pope probably does a lot less diocesan administration than any other bishop. We know that he does exercise pastoral care over the Roman See.

I guess, I’m more confused now than before, because I’m not sure where we’re disagreeing or even why. :confused:

How did we get on this subject of the Diocese of Rome anyway? 🤷

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Actually, it’s quite clear. Being a younger Catholic, it may seem less clear to you, but you’ll get used to this kind of language, especially with thinkers like Pope Benedict.
Thanks Brother Jay. It’s ambiguous in that it goes on and on in flowery language instead of coming straight to the point. That is why there are various opinions (low Petrine, High Petrine) views in the Eastern Forum on the role of the Pope because documents like Lumen Gentium go on in the same way. Instead of saying, I’m the Pope, you get to rule your individual churches just as long as you know, I’m the Supreme Head, the documents leave lots of room for interpretation.

That was just a mini-rant. 😃

But I must quote, one more time:
Actually, it’s quite clear. Being a younger Catholic…
Can’t believed I’m Catholic. 😃
 
This I agree with. But what I understood or maybe misunderstood before was that the pope was the Pope of Rome, which is very Protestant language.

Is the Bishop of Rome the Successor of Peter? Yes; therefore, he’s the pope.

Can the Bishop of Rome teach error in faith and morals? No, because he’s the pope.

Does the Bishop of Rome have to be pope? Yes, because it’s the See of Peter. It works the other way around too, the pope has to be bishop of Rome. No matter which way we turn the cookie, we come to the same place, the See of Rome and the Papacy are inseparable.

When the Bishop of Rome exercises administrative duties over the diocese, is this the same as other bishops? Yes, just like the Bishop of Baltimore or Hong Kong, etc. Every bishop administers his diocese and there are certain things that have to be done, which do not fall under the umbrella of infallibility.

The truth is that the pope probably does a lot less diocesan administration than any other bishop. We know that he does exercise pastoral care over the Roman See.

I guess, I’m more confused now than before, because I’m not sure where we’re disagreeing or even why. :confused:

How did we get on this subject of the Diocese of Rome anyway? 🤷

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
It appears to have just been a misunderstanding Brother (and sorry about the “Pope of Rome”, I guess my foreign friend did have a point about our language being heavily influenced by this Protestant nation).

I was trying to make the point that the Papal liturgy should be distinct from a normal Pontifical High Mass. You explained the administrative peculiarities of the Roman diocese. That’s all :D.
 
Thanks Mark. It helps somewhat. It contains more of the same ambiguous language I’m used to seeing in Church documents.
Personally, I found nothing particularly ambiguous about it. I know that this is the trendy thing to say – oh, the problem with Vatican II is that the documents are all just so ambiguous, waahh, what do they mean?! – but that is to be expected when the Church makes an effort to explain, teach, and justify rather than just saying “We decree X.” So in this case, the title was simply dropped. That’s “straight to the point” for you, without any “flowery language.” But then people asked for information and explanation about why, and so the Vatican issued the communiqué in question. Now what do you expect them to say – “It’s dropped because we say so, and that’s all there is to it. Anathema if you disagree”?

This is why reading documents from older Councils is not always particularly enlightening. For instance, the Fathers at Trent famously said concerning the language of the liturgy, “Although the mass contains great instruction for the faithful people, nevertheless, it has not seemed expedient to the Fathers, that it should be every where celebrated in the vulgar tongue.” That’s the entirety of what they had to say. Well, it’s clear enough, as far as it goes, right? “You asked, and the answer is no.” It just provides later generations with no information whatsoever about what “expedient” means, what criteria they were applying, whether it might be expedient in some places even though not “every where,” why they came to the opinion they did, what sort of different conditions or circumstances, if any, might make it expedient to use the vernacular, and so on and so forth. Of course, if they went on to provide three pages of arguments, explanations, and justifications for their decision, then people would be complaining about how ambiguous it was. 🤷
 
Personally, I found nothing particularly ambiguous about it. I know that this is the trendy thing to say – oh, the problem with Vatican II is that the documents are all just so ambiguous
I don’t form an opinion based on what is trendy.
 
It appears to have just been a misunderstanding Brother (and sorry about the “Pope of Rome”, I guess my foreign friend did have a point about our language being heavily influenced by this Protestant nation).

I was trying to make the point that the Papal liturgy should be distinct from a normal Pontifical High Mass. You explained the administrative peculiarities of the Roman diocese. That’s all :D.
That’s OK. I too have a weakness. I have knee-jerk reactions to Protestant language. If you will indulge me a moment, I’ll explain. I was born Jewish consider myself a Jew. The more common term is Hebrew Catholic, though I don’t like it too much, but it conveys an ethnic and cultural background that one does not leave behind because one becomes Catholic.

My mother is a holocaust survivor, but five of her brothers did not make it. I remember growing up with my grandfather telling us the story of the night that his five sons were captured and how he could do nothing to protect them without endangering the lives of his 13 other children.

I grew up in the South, during the era of segregation. The White Protestant Anglos treated Catholics, Jews, blacks, and foreigners with disdain. They actually reveled in the massacre of Jews and they often accused Catholics of things that were untrue, such as worshipping “the pope of Rome.”
Personally, I found nothing particularly ambiguous about it. I know that this is the trendy thing to say – oh, the problem with Vatican II is that the documents are all just so ambiguous, waahh, what do they mean?! – but that is to be expected when the Church makes an effort to explain, teach, and justify rather than just saying “We decree X.” So in this case, the title was simply dropped. That’s “straight to the point” for you, without any “flowery language.” But then people asked for information and explanation about why, and so the Vatican issued the communiqué in question. Now what do you expect them to say – “It’s dropped because we say so, and that’s all there is to it. Anathema if you disagree”?

This is why reading documents from older Councils is not always particularly enlightening. For instance, the Fathers at Trent famously said concerning the language of the liturgy, “Although the mass contains great instruction for the faithful people, nevertheless, it has not seemed expedient to the Fathers, that it should be every where celebrated in the vulgar tongue.” That’s the entirety of what they had to say. Well, it’s clear enough, as far as it goes, right? “You asked, and the answer is no.” It just provides later generations with no information whatsoever about what “expedient” means, what criteria they were applying, whether it might be expedient in some places even though not “every where,” why they came to the opinion they did, what sort of different conditions or circumstances, if any, might make it expedient to use the vernacular, and so on and so forth. Of course, if they went on to provide three pages of arguments, explanations, and justifications for their decision, then people would be complaining about how ambiguous it was. 🤷
I have often wondered about this. I read these documents and for the most part, I can see what they’re saying. I can see the prallels to previous documents or certian practices that were never written down, but were in place for a long time and even to other writings that were not official documents, such as letters, journals and things like this, kept by saints and great Catholic thinkiers. I have a gentleman charge me with all kinds of things that I did not say, because I did say that the early Franciscan, Dominican and Jesuit missionaries believed that Truth was also to be found in other faiths, not just Catholic. If it were legal, I’d be burned first thing in the morning.

But this kind of reaction comes from not reading history, literature and other writings that give us an isight into the mind of the Church without them being dogmatic in the sens of an official document with a seal, etc. Much of what we know comes through Catholic culture, not just documents. Many of these documents reflect that culture.

Maybe they should not assume that every Catholic is as well versed in Catholic culture as the writers. But there are many of us who read these things and say, “Oh yeah, that’s just like what so and so said or what these people did.” It’s like a :newidea: “Ahah moment.”

If you’re less familiar with Catholic culture, then you sit there are go, “What are they talking about?” :hmmm:

It’s also important to remember that just because we have everthing on the Internet, it does not mean that everything that the Church says is meant to be read by the laity. The Holy See does not care if the laity reads it. Along with that, it does not care if the laity understands it or not. It’s mean for bishops, a priests, or religious or world leaders, etc. In other words, they had a target audience in mind.

I don’t write a book of physics to be understood by musicians. They’re welcome to read it. It’s really meant for students of physics. So, it is the case with many Church documents and statements.

The Vatican is still pretty aristocratic in that regard. It focusses more on speaking to a certain group of people and not to every one. We must always ask, “Who is the target audience of this statement?” It may not be me and that’s why I have no clue what it’s saying.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I guess my foreign friend did have a point about our language being heavily influenced by this Protestant nation.
I would agree with him/her. A lot of it has to do with translations and how biased the translation is. For example, there’s a Vatican II document that allows bishops to replace Latin where haud raro linguae vernaculae usurpatio would be advantageous. Now if I had translated that as “not rarely the use of vulgar language” is allowed instead of “frequently the use of the mother tongue” is allowed, how fast do you think they would have jumped on it? But being that Protestants et al have glorified the term “in vernacular,” naturally one is inclined to think vernacular is better.

There’s another example of Catholics “worshipping” Mary because that’s what the Vatican said. Problem is that whoever translated “colere” wasn’t aware of the ramifications in the English language, which can be argued is the home field of the Protestants.
 
I would agree with him/her. A lot of it has to do with translations and how biased the translation is. For example, there’s a Vatican II document that allows bishops to replace Latin where haud raro linguae vernaculae usurpatio would be advantageous. Now if I had translated that as “not rarely the use of vulgar language” is allowed instead of “frequently the use of the mother tongue” is allowed, how fast do you think they would have jumped on it? But being that Protestants et al have glorified the term “in vernacular,” naturally one is inclined to think vernacular is better.

There’s another example of Catholics “worshipping” Mary because that’s what the Vatican said. Problem is that whoever translated “colere” wasn’t aware of the ramifications in the English language, which can be argued is the home field of the Protestants.
Red is mine.

I really like that expression. 👍

Can I borrow it or is it copywrited? 😃

A person like me, who has known only three Protestants in my life, because we were terrified of them, anything that sounds Protestant rattles us.

Today, thanks to three very holy, honest and kind Black Southern Baptists, I have come to realize that there is good and beauty in Protestantism that cannot be denied. I especially admire their love for Scripture.

While I serve many Protestants who come to our center, because they’re very poor, I have to always make a conscious effort to ignore some memories. I recall being called a “Christ killer” by the Protestant kids in school. We had to change schools and attend a Catholic school instead of the local public school. I also recall how the Catholic kids were taunted because of the Eucharist and how adults would not allow the kids to play with Catholic or Jewish kids. There were key phrases that I always remember.

“Worshipping Mary”

“The pope of Rome”

“Idol worshippers”

“Christ killers”

and so forth.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
As leader of One PLUS Billion world-wide Catholics; He MUST represent ALL of us. Were he to do this the secualr press [and not a few catholics] would have a field day with accusations that are ungrounded. At time Prudence is the better part of Valor:)

God Bless,
Pat
The Holy Father represents several Eastern Catholic Churches too. Following your line of thought he should celebrate, in addition to the Ordinary Rite, the Extraordinary Rite and Divine Liturgy.
 
The Holy Father represents several Eastern Catholic Churches too. Following your line of thought he should celebrate, in addition to the Ordinary Rite, the Extraordinary Rite and Divine Liturgy.
Except that he’s the Bishop of Rome… and the Patriarch of the West (even if he has dropped the title, he’s still the head of the Latin Church). And the Eastern Rites are represented at the 1962 Papal High Mass.
 
The Holy Father represents several Eastern Catholic Churches too. Following your line of thought he should celebrate, in addition to the Ordinary Rite, the Extraordinary Rite and Divine Liturgy.
Well, I don’t know if I’d go that far. The Extraordinary Form is the same rite as the Ordinary Form. They’re both the Latin Rite, just different expressions of it. So a Latin priest offering a Tridentine mass isn’t comparable to him offering a Divine Liturgy, or whatever else from the other Rites.
 
Let us muddle the water a bit.
Take the Latin Church only, which have several rites, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Bragan, Anglican Use Liturgy and several religious order historical rites for starter. They have Ordinary Forms for each respective rites in the Latin Church.
Several “defunct” rites exist, but still celebrated occasionally such as Sarum use or Lyonese rite.

So at least the Holy Father need to celebrate these liturgies also, just to represent the Latin Church?
 
That’s OK. I too have a weakness. I have knee-jerk reactions to Protestant language. If you will indulge me a moment, I’ll explain. I was born Jewish consider myself a Jew. The more common term is Hebrew Catholic, though I don’t like it too much, but it conveys an ethnic and cultural background that one does not leave behind because one becomes Catholic.

My mother is a holocaust survivor, but five of her brothers did not make it. I remember growing up with my grandfather telling us the story of the night that his five sons were captured and how he could do nothing to protect them without endangering the lives of his 13 other children.

I grew up in the South, during the era of segregation. The White Protestant Anglos treated Catholics, Jews, blacks, and foreigners with disdain. They actually reveled in the massacre of Jews and they often accused Catholics of things that were untrue, such as worshipping “the pope of Rome.”
That is a very sad story. My condolences for you never meeting your uncles.
 
Let us muddle the water a bit.
Take the Latin Church only, which have several rites, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Bragan, Anglican Use Liturgy and several religious order historical rites for starter. They have Ordinary Forms for each respective rites in the Latin Church.
Several “defunct” rites exist, but still celebrated occasionally such as Sarum use or Lyonese rite.

So at least the Holy Father need to celebrate these liturgies also, just to represent the Latin Church?
That sounds awful. Why would we expect the pope to celebrate the Carmelite, Cathusian, Dominican rites or the Benedictine or Franciscan forms? He is a secular priest, not a consecrated religious.

Maybe it’s me. But I even find it strange when Fr. Mitch, Fr. Pavone and Fr. Wade celebrate mass at EWTN in the Franciscan form… They’re not Franciscans and technically, that chapel is on longer a conventual chapel. It belongs to the network. The nuns have their own chapel at the shrine and the friars have their own chapel next door. Watch, on October 4, if one of these priests celebrates the mass, they will celebrate the mass of the solemnity of St. Francis, because the form requires it. BUT THEY’RE NOT BOUND TO THAT FORM!! Neither is the pope bound to any of these forms. 🤷

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Here’s Appendix 1 from Archdale King’s Liturgy of the Roman Church. It describes the unique variations of a Solemn high Papal Mass.
 
Sorry, what is the Franciscan Form?
The form of the mass that you see on EWTN.

It has its own calendar, missal, lectionary, holy days, and classes of holy days. For example, Oct 3 is an ordinary day in the Roman Calendar and Oct 4 is a memorial.

In the Franciscan form, it’s a solemnity if you’re celebrating the OF or a First Class Fest if you’re celebrating the EF. In either case, the mass is like an Easter mass in the OF or a solemn high mass in the EF, with all the bells and whistles.

There are some little things that do with it, besides the calendar. Some of the collects are different. The chapels don’t have communion rails, you receive standing or kneeling, but in a line, not at a rail so as to avoid setting the priest apart from the congregation, because Francis was not a priest, nor is half of the order. The friars must keep the equality among them. In some places, if the sanctuary allows it, the friars are in the sanctuary, even though they are not celebrating mass. If the sanctuary is small, you don’t use ralings and the friars sit in front.

The chant is not Gregorian. If you listen carefully, it’s very plain chant. Francis banned Gregorian chant. No house may use it for mass or the LOTH. It’s a NO NO. There are some communities that have a indult to use Gregorian Chant, but that’s a novelty.

The priest may NEVER whisper the prayers of the mass, not even in the EF. He must say them loudly so that the congregation responds to them. It is not the function of the alter server to respond to the prayers. It is the function of the congregation. This goes back again to equalizing the priest and the friars who are not priests. Today, when many lay people join the friars for mass, they join in the responding. We have always had dialog masses. To us, the whole thing about the silence during the Eucharistic prayer is foreign. We never had this silence.

If you oberve the last mass of Padre Pio, he’s celebrating the Franciscan Form. You will notice the microphones on the altar. The chant in the video is added by the creator of the video. The mike were there, because he could no longer speak loudly enough and the congregation would be unable to hear the Canon of the Mass and the consecration.

Padre Pio’s last mass

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The chant is not Gregorian. If you listen carefully, it’s very plain chant. Francis banned Gregorian chant. No house may use it for mass or the LOTH. It’s a NO NO. There are some communities that have a indult to use Gregorian Chant, but that’s a novelty.
This is interesting. Why did Saint Francis ban Gregorian Chant?
 
This is interesting. Why did Saint Francis ban Gregorian Chant?
Francis’ focus was always on the poverty of Christ. Everything that the order did had to reflect that poverty.

Gregorian chant presented several challenges that Francis did not like.
  1. It’s monastic. His order was to be religious in the middle of the secular world.
2… It requires books. His order was to have as few books as possible.
  1. It requires a chapel. His sons and daughters had to be able to celebrate mass and the LOTH in any place, in a chapel or over a rock.
  2. It’s elegant. His order was to preserve the austerity of the cross.
  3. You needed a singing voice. Those who could not sing, could not participate. His order was to be inclusive.
  4. It represented tradition. His order was to break with tradition and take Catholicism to the common man.
  5. It was in Latin. His order was to use Latin and the vernacular in mass and Divine Office. Gradually we adopted may of the more common forms of music and hymns, which are not considered classics, but at that time were faily new. Many of them were in German, Italian, and Spanish and later translated.
Today, Gregorian Chant does not have the same stigma that it had then. It’s no longer associated with the powerful and wealthy monasteries. For that reason, some Franciscans have asked for and received an indult to use it. Even there, the Church has warned that it is not to become the official music of the Franciscan order, because it takes away from the austerity of the Franciscan liturgy and Divine Office. We still recite the Divine Office. We don’t chant it. The only Franciscans who chant the Divine Office are those who were given permission to use the Benedictine form. There are not too many of those. You don’t want to make it too common.

It is our belief that it is good for us and for the laity to be exposed the mass and LOTH in its most austere and simple form. As long as you have the elegant EF mass with Gregorian chant and scholar somewhere, there is no need for Franciscans to do this on a regular basis. Otherwise, the faithful are deprived of the spirit of St. Francis, which is a very austere mass celebrated with great reverence and love. But we do have some houses that have it and we also have some houses that have Divine Liturgy.

This diversity is the beauty of the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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