Why Don't Catholics Feel Forgiven?

[jcrichton]

Hadn’t thought of that - they do seem very self-assured - no worries when your salvation is guaranteed! I never believed that - I knew there was always that horrible possibility of being left behind! But found out after I became Catholic that the Baptist church we went to when I was a child (but not later in my teen years) taught OSAS. I guess I had selective hearing back then.

Hi, Bonnie!



Thanks for that!

Maran atha!

Agnel

 

[jcrichton]

I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying my point was that Catholics don’t believe once saved always saved it’s not that we don’t believe we are not forgiven. I think you might want to read what I said again especially since I know what Church teaching is on this issue. I’m not trying to be offensive or anything but sometimes I read too fast and don’t get the context of what someone is saying I think you may have done the same thing with what I said

Hi, Adam!

Thank you for your clarification… I did not mean to clash… but it comes to vocabulary… whenever I am met (non-Catholics) on a street or another public environment the take is always: ‘are you saved?’

…it is to this understanding that I responded… too many non-Catholics actually believe that the Church Teaches that Catholics do not believe that we are saved in Christ–meaning, that only at our deaths (Extreme Unction) and by “works” can we gain Salvation.

Please understand that I did not mean to suggest that you thought differently from the Church!

God Bless!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[po18guy]

What is the absolute, number one, obsession among post-reformation Christians: Justification. Why this obsession, if they feel that Jesus did it all and they are already home free? The protestant world is absolutely OCD-level obsessed with justification. Pastors preach incessantly about it - even to the converted. This seems nonsensical if Jesus already paid the entire price. Denomination debates denomination over justification, have for 500 years, and will do so until the end of time. Many teach that sin has no effect on salvation!

Catholics have no such burden. We know that faith is required, of course, but we have the Sacraments as instituted by Christ. Our sins are gone and once penance is complete, our temporal punishment due to sin is also gone. Yet, due to our concupiscence, we are inclined to sin again - to do the wrong thing. From this, and from knowledge that sin separates us from God, we feel the guilt. Without guilt, what else would motivate us to improve in the virtues? To self-control?

The reformation’s heresy, among many others, is that they place little to no importance on thoughts or behavior - only on what they believe. “Faith alone!!!” This is 100% against what our Lord taught, i.e. “He who lusts after a woman has committed adultery with her in his heart.” Why would Jesus say this if sin had no price? Why didn’t He say “Don’t worry! I’ll pay the price for you!”?

He opened the gates of heaven, but He does not carry us through them. Sin is real. Sin is the only thing that separates us form God. You want to feel much better right now with absolutely no effort? Re-define sin as destroyed in the past and as having no effect on us today. Easy, but self-delusion does not give a pass through the gates of heaven.

 

[jcrichton]

What is the absolute, number one, obsession among post-reformation Christians: Justification. Why this obsession, if they feel that Jesus did it all and they are already home free? The protestant world is absolutely OCD-level obsessed with justification. Pastors preach incessantly about it - even to the converted. This seems nonsensical if Jesus already paid the entire price. Denomination debates denomination over justification, have for 500 years, and will do so until the end of time. Many teach that sin has no effect on salvation!

Catholics have no such burden. We know that faith is required, of course, but we have the Sacraments as instituted by Christ. Our sins are gone and once penance is complete, our temporal punishment due to sin is also gone. Yet, due to our concupiscence, we are inclined to sin again - to do the wrong thing. From this, and from knowledge that sin separates us from God, we feel the guilt. Without guilt, what else would motivate us to improve in the virtues? To self-control?

The reformation’s heresy, among many others, is that they place little to no importance on thoughts or behavior - only on what they believe. “Faith alone!!!” This is 100% against what our Lord taught, i.e. “He who lusts after a woman has committed adultery with her in his heart.” Why would Jesus say this if sin had no price? Why didn’t He say “Don’t worry! I’ll pay the price for you!”?

He opened the gates of heaven, but He does not carry us through them. Sin is real. Sin is the only thing that separates us form God. You want to feel much better right now with absolutely no effort? Re-define sin as destroyed in the past and as having no effect on us today. Easy, but self-delusion does not give a pass through the gates of heaven.

Hi, P!

Excellent post!

…not only did Jesus clarified that we sin in our thoughts but He did not back down when His own Disciples groaned: ‘tis better not marry’ (just being curt).

…He also did not take back: ‘better for you to enter Heaven with one eye, one hand, one foot–then to be, in your entirety, eternally damned!’ (paraphrased)

Conversely, it would have been fully superfluous of Him to Delegate the Power to Forgive sins if He Taught Salvation (Justification) from that “carefree sinning, cause Jesus already paid the price” vantage.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[AKDee]

I think I see what you’re getting at, and I think a large part of the issue is that protestants believe you cannot lose your salvation. “Once saved, always saved.” I can go kneel up front in the church, say I take Christ as my personal Savior, and I’m good to go for the rest of my life even if I never pick up the Bible, attend services, or pray and persist in living a sinful life without making an effort to change. It’s like a “get out of hell free” card. Catholics don’t believe that. Catholics believe that you CAN lose your salvation by dying in a state of mortal sin. And that’s terrifying - and it should be. We shouldn’t lose our faith in God’s mercy, but we need to remain ever cognizant that we must cooperate with His Grace, always.

 

[fred_conty]

I hear Christians talk about being free, forgiven, Christ breaking their chains, and I see them on fire for God, propelled by the freedom provided by their sins being forgiven.

I don’t see that with Catholics.

The forgiveness of our sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is a central part of our faith, and we have a sacrament instituted by Jesus where He personally forgives our sins, which other Christian denominations don’t have. Yet, we still act guilty, ashamed, in need of punishment, ineffective. Worse than that, we have church-sanctioned elements that tell us we need to make reparation for sins (ours and others) and encourage self-mortification as a way of gaining forgiveness.

Why is this, my brothers and sisters?

I hear Christians talk about being free, forgiven, Christ breaking their chains, and I see them on fire for God, propelled by the freedom provided by their sins being forgiven.

I don’t see that with Catholics.

To me there seems to be an inherent oxymoron. For if their sins are forgiven, then why church and why a preacher, and even why a bible? I believe this about fundamental believers, but the other christians not so much.

The other undeniable thing I’ve noticed is that this “fire” dies out in them as well, given time.

And I do see this “fire” in Catholics as well especially in the new ones, which also dies out after a while. There are answers for this but are too lengthly here.

The forgiveness of our sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is a central part of our faith, and we have a sacrament instituted by Jesus where He personally forgives our sins, which other Christian denominations don’t have. Yet, we still act guilty, ashamed, in need of punishment, ineffective. Worse than that, we have church-sanctioned elements that tell us we need to make reparation for sins (ours and others) and encourage self-mortification as a way of gaining forgiveness.

Why is this, my brothers and sisters?

I believe a lot of this is preoccupation with purgatory. We know that even tho our sins are forgiven, which means eternal suffering is removed, we still constantly feel we are in for a hard time before we are one with our Lord. That can diminish joy.

And we are aware of the bible saying that the “just man” sins seven times a day. And it may be that a sneaky suspiction of ours that we have overlooked something which is fuel for our conscience to beat us up. That is something I believe even St. Paul had to struggle with.

Just think of what it would mean if we did not believe in purgatory and we did not believe that sin would ever separate us from Jesus so that we would only go to heaven by the express train. Like Jesus said tho, there is the narrow road, and there is the wide road. A lot more sweat is lost taking the narrow road.

 

[Vico]

I hear Christians talk about being free, forgiven, Christ breaking their chains, and I see them on fire for God, propelled by the freedom provided by their sins being forgiven.

I don’t see that with Catholics.

The forgiveness of our sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is a central part of our faith, and we have a sacrament instituted by Jesus where He personally forgives our sins, which other Christian denominations don’t have. Yet, we still act guilty, ashamed, in need of punishment, ineffective. Worse than that, we have church-sanctioned elements that tell us we need to make reparation for sins (ours and others) and encourage self-mortification as a way of gaining forgiveness.

Why is this, my brothers and sisters?

Reparation is different than forgiveness. Reparation is not a way of gaining forgiveness but the intention to do so is important for forgiveness. We do strive for the fruits of the Spirit and so do work for self mastery which includes not letting the passions control us.

Catechism
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."85

1491 The sacrament of Penance is a whole consisting in three actions of the penitent and the priest’s absolution. The penitent’s acts are repentance, confession or disclosure of sins to the priest, and the intention to make reparation and do works of reparation.

1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: “charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity.”

 

[jcrichton]

I think I see what you’re getting at, and I think a large part of the issue is that protestants believe you cannot lose your salvation. “Once saved, always saved.” I can go kneel up front in the church, say I take Christ as my personal Savior, and I’m good to go for the rest of my life even if I never pick up the Bible, attend services, or pray and persist in living a sinful life without making an effort to change. It’s like a “get out of hell free” card. Catholics don’t believe that. Catholics believe that you CAN lose your salvation by dying in a state of mortal sin. And that’s terrifying - and it should be. We shouldn’t lose our faith in God’s mercy, but we need to remain ever cognizant that we must cooperate with His Grace, always.

Hi, AK!

…actually, as far as I understanding it, not all Protestants subscribe that the “once saved”… but they do hold similar values… yet, even the “once saved” do hold the study of Scriptures as an important tenet of their faith… I think what you are alluding to is their staunch belief that by holding to Scriptures (actually their interpretation of Scriptures) there’s nothing they can do wrong (as Luther’s take: 'commit adultery 10K a day… you’re a ok ‘cause Jesus got your back!’) Salvation is ripe for the taking! …again there’s a variation of this as some groups do, at least in inference, believe that man needs to confess his sins in order to get back to God’s Grace; they differ in the actual understanding of how this is done since some believe in *self *as the intermediate confessor between man and God, while others believe in general/open confession where they bring it to their group/altar.

Yet, I do concur with you that, for Catholics, Confession is a Sacrament Instituted by Christ and that Salvation is not some sort of contractual obligation that we can hold over God so that we have unlimited mileage on sinning while rejecting all demands to self-control and Repentance, Contrition, Confession, and Reparation… much like that heresy that developed right at the Church’s Inception:

20 Now the law entered in, that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound. 21 That as sin hath reigned to death; so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 What shall we say, then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein?

(Romans 5:20-21, 6:1-2)
…as a response to this version of “once saved” St. Paul admonishes the Believers that Christ did not come to offer such Teachings… that the Believers must engage Christ in the new creature (man) and not fallback into the old man and his unrighteous acts.

Maran atha!

Angel