C
CMatt25
Guest
But the Church sure directs them not to approach Christ. Thank God it hardly ever happens that someone is actually denied.
- Status
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Actually the Church directs people not to approach Christ in the Eucharist unless they are Catholics in a state of grace because** Christ Himself says that we must be in a state of grace to 'eat and drink the Body and Blood of the Lord worthily, and Christ Himself established ONE true holy catholic and apostolic Church.**
Imagine that you are a physician. Your patient comes in complaining of diarrhea. You explain that you will put the patient on IV fluids and bowel rest, and that he or she must not eat or drink by mouth until the diarrhea has passed.
Now, suppose your patient doesn’t wish to obey your orders and is competent to judge that. Your patient insists that he is hungry. Your patient goes ahead and eats. . .and the diarrhea gets worse.
Now in 9 out of 10 cases, most diarrheal illnesses are self-limiting. Even if your patient continues to irritate his gastrointestinal tract instead of resting it, eventually he will stop having the diarrhea.
If he had listened to you, he would be back to normal in 1 to 2 days.
He decides to eat so the diarrhea lasts instead for 6-7 days.
And in 1 out of 10 cases, the diarrhea gets so bad the patient winds up in the hospital and getting a colonoscopy because he has destroyed portions of his bowel through his insistence on eating.
So. . .as a physician, you tell the patient what he needs to do to heal in the best way.
Your patient can obey you. OR
Your patient can disregard your advice and can wind up still ‘getting better’ eventually but taking a longer time and suffering. .
or your patient can disregard your advice and wind up needing major surgery with even a risk of death.
Well, there you have the Catholic Church, Matt. It is the physician telling all Christians who are suffering from the effects of sin (diarrhea) that they must follow advice (be in a state of grace and in communion with the Church).
Some people (disobedient Catholics) refuse to listen to the advice, ‘take’ communion while in mortal sin, and wind up ‘sicker’ for having done so, until they ‘repent’, and Christ heals them when they do so.
Some people (nonCatholic Christians who despite knowing the Church’s position as directed by the Holy Spirit) insist on ‘taking’ communion while they are not in a state of grace and not members of the Catholic Church. They wind up much sicker and needing indeed major surgery and even facing possible death because they refused to listen.
E
eucharisteo
Guest
The last statement then was meant in case you really did not and thus the first statement still holds true. Thank God you do not have authority in the Church. You obviously do NOT understand scripture well enough to realize the danger of allowing what you want. if you really did I doubt you would want to offend God like that. If you don’t mind offending God then you have a more serious problems in my opinion.
PAX
C
CMatt25
Guest
Tantum I know what the CC says. You can choose to follow all the CC says about itself. I absolutely no problem with you doing so. God bless and peace to you.
B
Bbigam
Guest
Tantum ergo responded really well as she always does. But I wanted to add something - the Church does not direct people to not approach Christ. It asks them to wait before approaching Christ as present in the Eucharist, until they are properly disposed. And part of becoming properly disposed is approaching Christ in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
You too, hon.
Matt, my best friend in the world (we’ve been buddies for almost 40 years now!) is Protestant. She’s the best Christian I know. She’s the only person outside of these forums to whom I CAN speak about Christ and know that she is as passionately committed to living for Christ as I myself try to be.
But we don’t receive communion in each other’s Church. . .and neither of us is upset with it. She does not believe the Eucharist is anything but a symbol, but if she did come to believe it was the True Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, she would become Catholic before she would receive, because she understands that ‘just’ being a Christian, even being a Christian in a state of grace and even being a nonCatholic Christian who totally ‘believed’ in the Real Presence is simply not ‘enough’ to be able to ‘receive’ that Real Presence.
She doesn’t feel ‘deprived’ or that she is being denied Christ by some big old institution which put up ‘man-made’ rules and suppressed Christ’s teachings.
But --forgive me if I am incorrect in my assessment here–the above seems to be exactly what you are saying.
It seems to me that you are saying that Christ at point X specifically said that “anyone who calls himself a Christian may receive at a Catholic Communion” and you are also saying that somewhere, somehow, the “Catholic Church” deliberately changed Jesus’ own words and put in a ‘new’ man-made rule.
Now, if that is what you’re saying, and quite honestly it seems it is, you really should be able to demonstrate when that occurred. Because if it did, then the Catholic Church isn’t what it claims it is, Matt–if the Catholic Church deliberately imposed a ‘man-made’ rule and changed Christ’s teachings, it is NOT ‘His Church’. . .and you owe it to all Christians to demonstrate positive proof.
And if you can’t. . . then you need to prayerfully consider whether you are truly right in your ‘opinion’ (which cannot be proven) as opposed to the claims of the Church. Again, you know what the Catholic Church claims of itself. Either its claims are true and you as a Catholic are bound to believe them. . . or the claims are false, in which case you (or any of us) would be fools to remain in a false Church, right?
If I found out the Church was wrong in something, I wouldn’t say, "Oh well, the Church is wrong about communion, but what the heck, it ‘matches my views’ in just about anything else and since ALL the Churches are flawed, I’ll stick with it and just work to make it ‘change’ to my point of view, anyway, like I said, there isn’t any such thing as “one institutional Church, they’ve ALL gone corrupt somewhere along the line”. . .
If I found out the Church was wrong in something, I would either (assuming that the wrong teaching was specific to the Catholic Church or the “Latin/aka ROMAN” rite) become Orthodox, or if it was wrong in something that contradicted Christ and therefore disproved Christianity itself, I would become Jewish. I sure as heck wouldn’t just muddle along in some flawed Church if it claimed it was True and I thought that SOMETHING about it was false!!!
C
CMatt25
Guest
In your opinion are the key words here. It’s a blessing we each are given. To sincerely and prayerfully study Scripture, inform our consciences, pray and contemplate some more, then form our views or “opinions” as you say, or as I prefer to say our beliefs. And then we follow our hearts in good conscience. That’s why we call it faith. United together in Christ Whom and which far outweighs our differences, Peace be with you.
C
CMatt25
Guest
If I believed that was the case, tomorrow or this wk or next weekend, whenever we next attend Mass, we shouldn’t bother reciting “Lord I am not worthy to receive You but only say the word and I shall be healed”. Peace.
E
eucharisteo
Guest
Good luck with you ideas. Don’t know why you’ve singled me out considering I’m not the only one telling you this. I had to go through RCIA to get the teachings of the Church to accept them. I do continue my tradition of regular bible study but also try to understand what the Church teaches on the matter of faith and morals.
E
eucharisteo
Guest
boomp boomp boomp boomp…another one bites the dust …boomp boomp…etc.
It pains me to see so many Catholics in dissent of the faith they are supposed to embrace. We sacrificed our family in order to accept Christ in His fullness on His terms, not ours. It makes us feel like we did it in vain sometimes, but then we remember what we came for…Christ’s real presence, body and blood, souls and divinity, in the Eucharist.
Peace brother, I hope others see the dissent as we do. This would be like a Baptist accepting that you don’t have to do anything to be saved, not even say a prayer in your heart. A Catholic that doesn’t accept the teachings of the Church is viewed the same way by Catholics who try to practice their faith sincerely. But, in practice, we can only hope and pray.
As an EMHC I know that I’ve probably given the Eucharist to non-Catholics or those that were not properly disposed in the form of training. I’ve had some people approach me as I was about to commune someone and told that the person was not Catholic. All we can do is pray for them and hope that one day they too will be completely Christian, which is Catholic.
It pains me to see so many Catholics in dissent of the faith they are supposed to embrace. We sacrificed our family in order to accept Christ in His fullness on His terms, not ours. It makes us feel like we did it in vain sometimes, but then we remember what we came for…Christ’s real presence, body and blood, souls and divinity, in the Eucharist.
Peace brother, I hope others see the dissent as we do. This would be like a Baptist accepting that you don’t have to do anything to be saved, not even say a prayer in your heart. A Catholic that doesn’t accept the teachings of the Church is viewed the same way by Catholics who try to practice their faith sincerely. But, in practice, we can only hope and pray.
As an EMHC I know that I’ve probably given the Eucharist to non-Catholics or those that were not properly disposed in the form of training. I’ve had some people approach me as I was about to commune someone and told that the person was not Catholic. All we can do is pray for them and hope that one day they too will be completely Christian, which is Catholic.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Ah, but even if I had just come out of confession, had confessed all my mortal and venial sins and was totally ‘clean’. . .between walking out of the confessional and receiving at Mass you known darn well I could have committed several venial sins (even a mortal one!)
And furthermore, even if I were absolutely totally in a state of grace–does that make me ‘worthy’ to receive? No, not really. I’m not ‘entitled to the Eucharist’ because I have ‘done well’. I am permitted to receive by the gracious permission of our Lord and God. . .and so in that sense I am always ‘unworthy to receive’ but when He says the word I am healed.
Matt, you do tend to a lot of narrowing and ‘cherry picking’ which in itself is a part of your difficulty. What is the ‘context’ of the words you gave in regard to the rest of Mass, to the rest of Scripture, and to the ‘rest’ of the Church? You can’t just pull them out in a vacuum and say, "Because we say these words after the Lamb of God and before communion it proves that we are all ‘unworthy’ until we say this and then anybody ‘can’ receive’. Those words are said not to let ‘anybody’ in but are our affirmation of both our unworthiness in ourselves and our humble obedience in letting CHRIST say the word and heal us.
Matt, you want to listen to Christ. Why do you think that the Church ‘doesn’t speak for Christ’ in regard to the reception of the Eucharist?
C
CMatt25
Guest
Tantum, I’m not deprived. I usually take Communion if I feel His calling and healing. If I don’t then I don’t. It’s rare though for me not to hear His calling and feel His healing when in His presence.
We don’t need to rehash here what has been demonstrated by many over the centuries. Your friend can probably explain his/her beliefs to you. I’m with you and your friend. All of us trying. But since I believe Christ is everywhere, I’d have to say no you’re wrong to assume I or anyone is a fool to remain in any church. I wouldn’t become Jewish when I am a Christian just because perfection may not be on earth. Again God bless and peace.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Eucharisteo, I didn’t mean to appear I was singling you out. Sorry if you took it that way. Good luck with yours too. Eucharisteo, in Christ we do nothing in vain my friend. Peace.
C
catharina
Guest
The primary guide to having an informed conscience is Church Teaching.
The response to Church Teaching is humble obedience.
Your re-hash began in the 1960s and it has been discredited, repeatedly, ever since.
E
eucharisteo
Guest
The Eastern Orthodox Christians do not receive every weekend as many Catholic do. I’m not sure about Eastern Catholics. They usually one receive after careful preparation including receiving the sacrament of reconciliation, which is usually right before the Divine Liturgy. I think we could learn something from this. Receiving the body and blood of Christ is a serious act of faith that we must prepare for carefully. And therefore no one should merely assume that they can simply walk up and receive. It is also taboo to receive Holy Communion in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
When we were Church of Christ, Alexander Campbell, church restoration movement, we would have been greatly offended if a Baptist tried to receive because we did not consider them in communion with the Lord’s church.
When we were Church of Christ, Alexander Campbell, church restoration movement, we would have been greatly offended if a Baptist tried to receive because we did not consider them in communion with the Lord’s church.
J
jmcrae
Guest
The subject was specifically Evangelicals and other Protestants who don’t officially teach the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
I am fully aware that there are individual Protestants who have read John chapter 6, and believe it, because, hey - it’s in the Bible. A lot of them are completely unaware of the teachings of their own Confession, mostly because they can’t believe that their pastors and elders haven’t read what they have read in the Bible. I wasn’t referring to them, though.
J
Jean_1958
Guest
Simply tell your friend that closed communion isn’t “just” a Catholic thing. I’ve been to various Protestant churches (Baptist, Lutheran, etc…) where they’ve had closed communion even to others within their own denomination. The reason behind closed communion is simple: the priest or pastor at that church has no way of really knowing if an outsider believes similarly to him and his congregation. The point of closed communion is to ensure that only those who believe similarly will be receiving.
Simply put: communion has to do with unity of belief.
Jean
O
O.S.Luke
Guest
I stand corrected. Thank you.The subject was specifically Evangelicals and other Protestants who don’t officially teach the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
I am fully aware that there are individual Protestants who have read John chapter 6, and believe it, because, hey - it’s in the Bible. A lot of them are completely unaware of the teachings of their own Confession, mostly because they can’t believe that their pastors and elders haven’t read what they have read in the Bible. I wasn’t referring to them, though.
Pax,
O+
1
1beleevr
Guest
So, what you are saying is you shut out other Christians
And speaking of the eucharist, and transubstantiation, that is a BELIEF that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ right? And is there also something about sacrifice? If it involves Christ, wouldn’t contradict Hebrews 10:5-12? If a catholic came to our church, we would allow them to take communion!
1
1beleevr
Guest
We believe and teach that Christ is pesent at communion!
- Status