Why don't Catholics have Open Communion?

[rinnie]

Here is another reason I don’t understand why you reject confession. Not ONE protest of this if in the early Christan writings.

We find the opposite in fact, We find that confession to a Priest was accepted as part of the original deposit of faith handed down from the Apostles.

 

[rinnie]

1b, now you said you have the fullness of Christ in you. Now God bless you my love. I wish I could make a statement like that.

But I don’t. I also sin. To me to have the fullness of CHrist means you are completely Christ like. I know we are all called to that, but many fall short. I am first on the list.

Next Communion. alot of what this is about. The true meaning of Catholic communion and why one must understand what it really is and why.

Now people say that John 6:63 It is the spriit that give life, the flesh is of no avail…

They say eating the real flesh is a waste Then are we saying that Christ commanded his Apostles ot eat his flesh, then said doing this is of no avail

So was he saying eat my flesh, but its really a waste of your time, then that is saying that the Son of God was incarnated for NO REASON!!

Then he died for no reason, and rose from the dead for no reason. Never say that to a Catholic. You will never get them to deny Christ. Never.

Christ’s flesh profits us more then anyone elses in the world. If it profits us nothing so tha t the incarnation death and resurrection of Christ are of no avail ten your fath is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those who have fallen asleep in Chirst have perished. (cor 15:17 -18)

In John 6:63 flesh to no avil refers to human reason, above Gods. whole different level there of teaching.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians. The cup of blessing which WE BLESS is it NOT a Participation in the blood of Christ. 1 cor 10:16 Did he not say that whoever eats it in an unworthy manner will be GUILTY of PROFAINING THE BODY and BLOOD of CHRIST!!

Now how could he say that and it be so serious as to pass judgement on oneself if it does not become the actual bread and blood of CHrist?

How could it be the BREAD OF LIFE, How could it come down from HEAVEN!

You see Communion is a celebration of his resurrection into heaven. God is not one Person. GOd is 3 persons made up of ONE GOD. He is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit! How can you say one is less then the other?

Do you see what I am saying. Communion is no different (communion is God the Father revealed by the presence of the Holy Spirit) Just like Jesus is God the Father revealed to us by the Son. Just like God is also revealed to us in the Word.

GOd never left us lb. He is still here in the living Christ the Holy Eucharist. Just as powerful and present as he was when he walked this world as Jesus. Thats why communion is so important to us.

 

[rinnie]

l corinthians 10:16
l cor. 11:24

St Justin Martyr ( 150AD) Not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these but as we HAVE BEEN TAUGHT the food which has been made into the Eucharist by Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh are nourished is Both the Flesh and blood of the Incarnated Jesus.

 

[choy]

Here is another reason I don’t understand why you reject confession. Not ONE protest of this if in the early Christan writings.

We find the opposite in fact, We find that confession to a Priest was accepted as part of the original deposit of faith handed down from the Apostles.

and its not like Protestants as a whole reject Confession. i believe Lutherans have Confession

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Lutherans do not belive in the ‘True Presence’ (at least not in the catholic meaning) but in Cosustantiation… ie they believe Christ is present in the bread in spirit only.

The true presence does not simply mean that Jesus is there in ‘spirit only’ but that Jesus is there in Flesh, Blood, Spirit and Divinity…

That is somewhat different…

Actually Ismael, you got it completely wrong. Lutherans do not believe in transubstantiation (Roman Church) and we certainly don’t believe in consubstantiation either. Lutheran teaching is that Christ is truly present in, with and under the forms of bread and wine. We do not subscribe to any philosophical explanation of Christ’s presence but understand this as a sacramental union of Christ with the bread and wine.

 

[jmcrae]

and its not like Protestants as a whole reject Confession. i believe Lutherans have Confession

So do some Anglicans.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

I would never go so far to say I am more Catholic than Lutheran. Perhaps I am seeing many Catholics that are even less Catholic than I am. For the record, and no offense is intended. I can see absolutely no circumstance where I would ever become Catholic but that doesn’t mean I think every bit of it is in error…in fact I would say the majority is not. It’s not an anti-Catholic sentiment. I can’t see any reason I would ever become United Methodist or Presbyterian. Yet. I am fully welcome at both those churches and fully capable and welcome to take communion and I would find doing so to be meaningful.

I agree with you somewhat Lutheranteach. The difference lies in the fact that the ELCA, UMC and TEC can sit down talk to one another and see the commonality in our doctrine and overlook the fact that in the Liturgy, Lutherans respond to “The Lord be with you” with “And also with you.”, but in TEC they may say “And with thy spirit.” I hope some day that we will be there with the Roman Church, but I’m not hopeful in my lifetime. Since the JDDJ, I haven’t seen any real ecumenical movement. I don’t think that there is any real need or want for the Roman Church to truly work on healing division. After all, they think Luther left them, as opposed to Luther being left by them. Bad things happen to those that disagree with Rome. Poor Galileo!

 

[Mikeoffaith]

The reality, often ignored, forgotten, denied, or unknown by Protestants, is that the Protestant groups separated themselves from the Catholic Church. Luther, Calvan, Zwingli, the Church of England, etc… all those folks were Catholic until they chose to leave the Catholic Church. Protestants out there today are still, knowingly or unknowingly, part of groups who have voluntarily separated themselves from the Church.

It’s a little like this. You work for GE, and your family has always worked for GE. You quit, and start your own similar company, GL. A hundred years later your descendants, still working for GL, walk into a GE office and demand a paycheck. They won’t get one because they aren’t part of GE, even though they do a lot of the same things in GL. They have to get hired and trained and start working for GE before they can expect a GE paycheck.

The analogy is far from perfect, of course; the Church is a lot more than a business and the Eucharist infinitely more than a paycheck, and this doesn’t address the issue of receiving while otherwise properly disposed. But it may help some people understand the Catholic perspective, even if they disagree.

I think you need to get your history straight. I think for Lutherans the analogy is closer to this. You work for GE and your family has always worked for GE. You have a disagreement with management over the company’s treatment of it’s customers, based on your educated reading of the company’s mission statement. Management then gives you a verbal warning for pointing it out. Then a written warning, then they fire you. Then a bunch of backers come and ask you to start Edison.

 

[1beleevr]

Hi lB (tell the truth you missed me huh).

Got a few questions for you though. Know you love a good quiz.

First of all let me try to explain a little of Catholic faith. You know me short and sweet. Well I try.

Catholics believe that all pardon for our sins come fromt he finished work on Calvary. But how is this PARDON RECEIVED by individuals?

Well lets see. The bible says he gave us TWO means.

First one if Baptism, do you not agree, It was give to take away any sin inherited from Adam.

Then we have a second way. Here is why, we have sins unfortunately after baptism this is confession. Remember Jesus did it Matt 9:6

Now since he knew he would not always be with the church VISIBLY he gave this power to other men so the Church which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt 28:20)

God send Jesus to forgive sins do you not agree? If you do, then why do you no agree that he could give that power to the Apostles. He said he did. Let me show you. As the Father sent me, so I sent you, and WHEN he said this he said this he breathed on them and said Receive the Holy Spirit, Then lb right after that, RIGHT after that he continued did he not. If YOU forgive the sins of any they are FORGIVEN, If YOU retain them they are retained.

Now this is the only other time he breathed on Man did you know that. This proves how powerful this really is.

Now do you believe that God gave that power to Jesus? Do you agree that he really God and Human, (Man). IF you do, how can you reject that this power from God is breathed into Certain Man to also do his work? I don’t get it why you reject this, I mean 1b let me be frank with you. You of all people, I can’t understand How You reject this. You do know the word of God, but how can you let this slip by.

What I am asking show me in your eyes how you make this go away. I am dead serious. I am trying to see how you really see these words. Thanks Love.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

I think that Uncle Chuck, Aunt Jackie, and Cousin Dave are invited. They just don’t want to come. They want the meal without being a part of the family.

I don’t think this analogy is very good. If Uncle Chuck, Aunt Jackie and Cousin Dave are invited and don’t want to come that is one thing. But the question needs to be asked does someone always have to be part of your family to be fed?

 

[1beleevr]

Hi lB (tell the truth you missed me huh).

Got a few questions for you though. Know you love a good quiz.

First of all let me try to explain a little of Catholic faith. You know me short and sweet. Well I try.

Catholics believe that all pardon for our sins come fromt he finished work on Calvary. But how is this PARDON RECEIVED by individuals?

Well lets see. The bible says he gave us TWO means.

First one if Baptism, do you not agree, It was give to take away any sin inherited from Adam.

Then we have a second way. Here is why, we have sins unfortunately after baptism this is confession. Remember Jesus did it Matt 9:6

Now since he knew he would not always be with the church VISIBLY he gave this power to other men so the Church which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt 28:20)

God send Jesus to forgive sins do you not agree? If you do, then why do you no agree that he could give that power to the Apostles. He said he did. Let me show you. As the Father sent me, so I sent you, and WHEN he said this he said this he breathed on them and said Receive the Holy Spirit, Then lb right after that, RIGHT after that he continued did he not. If YOU forgive the sins of any they are FORGIVEN, If YOU retain them they are retained.

Now this is the only other time he breathed on Man did you know that. This proves how powerful this really is.

Now do you believe that God gave that power to Jesus? Do you agree that he really God and Human, (Man). IF you do, how can you reject that this power from God is breathed into Certain Man to also do his work? I don’t get it why you reject this, I mean 1b let me be frank with you. You of all people, I can’t understand How You reject this. You do know the word of God, but how can you let this slip by.

What I am asking show me in your eyes how you make this go away. I am dead serious. I am trying to see how you really see these words. Thanks Love.

Well of course I miss you, darlin’! You know I have been invited to catholic churches on occasion, and have attended(including weddings and funerals) and have always been told right up front, without even bringing the subject up, that I could not partake of communion! I am okay with that, as long as I know! Not that I understand it; but rules are rules you know! I walked this earth for many years, as a Christian without really knowing who Christ was; although I claimed His Name! Trials and tribulations helped to illuminate my faith, and I realized hoe powerful His love for me was! Then I began to serve Him in earnest. This is when I fully realized the fullness of Him, and what His plans are for my life! He shows me daily, that it is not about anything material, or anyone on this earth! It’s about Him, and serving others in His Name! Matthew 20:20-23 is still vague to me as to whether men can forgive sins, which in essence sells God short! I have read the New Testament at length, and have yet to find an instance where the apostles forgave sins! I don’t really know for sure how to interpret those verses! And baptism doesn’t wash away my sins, it’s:Nothin’, nothin’, nothin but the Blood of Jesus!" Face it rinn, you’re catholic, I’m not; we are both saved and Heaven bound! Luv ya sister!

 

[jmcrae]

I think you need to get your history straight. I think for Lutherans the analogy is closer to this. You work for GE and your family has always worked for GE. You have a disagreement with management over the company’s treatment of it’s customers, based on your educated reading of the company’s mission statement. Management then gives you a verbal warning for pointing it out. Then a written warning, then they fire you. Then a bunch of backers come and ask you to start Edison.

That’s not what happened, or else St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Ignatius of Loyola, and hundreds of others would also have been “fired” since they also disagreed with how “the management” was running things.

The difference is that Sts. Teresa, John, and Ignatius followed company procedures for lodging a complaint, and also made proposals for solutions (and waited for the proposals to be approved before implementing them), instead of saying, “Fix this or else I’m quitting.”

 

[rinnie]

Well of course I miss you, darlin’! You know I have been invited to catholic churches on occasion, and have attended(including weddings and funerals) and have always been told right up front, without even bringing the subject up, that I could not partake of communion! I am okay with that, as long as I know! Not that I understand it; but rules are rules you know! I walked this earth for many years, as a Christian without really knowing who Christ was; although I claimed His Name! Trials and tribulations helped to illuminate my faith, and I realized hoe powerful His love for me was! Then I began to serve Him in earnest. This is when I fully realized the fullness of Him, and what His plans are for my life! He shows me daily, that it is not about anything material, or anyone on this earth! It’s about Him, and serving others in His Name! Matthew 20:20-23 is still vague to me as to whether men can forgive sins, which in essence sells God short! I have read the New Testament at length, and have yet to find an instance where the apostles forgave sins! I don’t really know for sure how to interpret those verses! And baptism doesn’t wash away my sins, it’s:Nothin’, nothin’, nothin but the Blood of Jesus!" Face it rinn, you’re catholic, I’m not; we are both saved and Heaven bound! Luv ya sister!

Oh I hope so my friend I sure hope so. But I can say that we are both doing the best that we know and God knows our heart and God can only judge us.

What I think alot of people have to understand lb about us is one very important thing. I think the Pope said it best but I am going to say it my way. Here it is, ready or not

We can only be held accountable for what truth we know. You see what I mean. I know in my heart I must confess my sins, and what the Eucharist is and what I can and can’t do. God is going to judge me on that. I could not in my heart become Protestant etc when I know the truth that was revealed to me.

You only know the truth that is revealed to you at this time. I understand that.

But here is the big thing, If I as a Catholic know the truth that was revealed to me, and know honestly the teachings of the Church and deny them I am well lets say screwed. You see what I mean. Because to deny what I believe in my heart to be true just because I don’t like all of the teachings of the Church because it does not fit into my plan won’t work. See what I mean.

If someday you truely find (and you can 1b keep studying and you probally will) that the RCC is the true Church you Will do the right thing and come to the RCC. See what I mean.

But that word if for the Holy Spirit to do, when and how God chooses. But we can still love eachother and respect eachother, and tell the truth as it is revealed to us. Thats what counts. Take care Love

 

[Mikeoffaith]

I had a little revelation of this communion one day last month I think, when after receiving, I finally realized that each and everyone who had gone up to communion all had a piece of Christ within them. Here we all were, separate beings, yet we were only one being as well because Christ was within us. We were literally united in Christ. That was an ah-ha moment for me. (I’m a slow learner… whadaya want?)

Interesting, I just got done reading a book that put that in perspective for me. It brought up the point that the Eucharist wasn’t so much about remembering Christ as it was about re-membering the Body of Christ.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

They don’t actually believe that the elements of the Eucharist are Him - they consider the elements to be symbolic, only. I think that’s the part you’re not getting - they don’t share our beliefs at all.

They see it as a “fellowship meal” and they don’t see being banned from Communion as being “kept from Christ” - they see themselves as the keepers of Christ and that they are bringing Him to us (because they see us as misguided pagans), so no - they don’t see us as keeping them from Christ, but rather, they see us as excluding them from a friendship meal, and saying that they can’t be our friends.

What we have to do is, rather than let them partake of the Eucharist, thinking it’s a friendship meal, simply explain to them that that’s not how we do friendship meals, invite them to our actual friendship meals (which they are certainly most welcome to attend), and explain to them that we believe the Eucharist to be the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, uniting us as Catholics in Him to full holy communion with His Vicar on earth, the Pope.

Once you explain it to them like that, they are no longer tempted to partake of it, and are glad to come instead to our friendship meals, and to refrain from coming forward at Mass for Holy Communion.

Who do you keep referring to as “they”?

 

[Mikeoffaith]

How terribly sad that you would align yourself with those who unworthily approach Christ.

When we receive the Holy Eucharist, it is not only that we “believe” but that we are free from grave sin. Ideally we should be free from all sin. To pretend that all who might arrive to receive, who might wish to receive, are “called by the Father” is only that, a pretense. When one and all come, without due preparation, one and all sin. Would you really allow that, adding sin unto sin? What might Our Lord say to us regarding “proper disposition” prior to the reception of the Holy Eucharist? I imagine He would/will say: “Well done!”

He might say, “What the …? All I asked the Apostles to do was believe and take off their shoes before they came into the house.”

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Christ Himself says that we must be in a state of grace to 'eat and drink the Body and Blood of the Lord worthily, and Christ Himself established ONE true holy catholic and apostolic Church.

Can you explain this a little more thoroughly? Scripture references would help. I think I missed this in Sunday School.

Liked the diarrhea analogy. But where does Imodium fit in?

 

[jmcrae]

He might say, “What the …? All I asked the Apostles to do was believe and take off their shoes before they came into the house.”

The Apostles were all Catholic, though. There weren’t any Protestants, back then.

 

[jmcrae]

Who do you keep referring to as “they”?

The sort of liberal-reformed Protestants who think they are entitled to receive the Eucharist in the Catholic Church, because they think Jesus doesn’t care one way or the other.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

That’s not what happened, or else St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Ignatius of Loyola, and hundreds of others would also have been “fired” since they also disagreed with how “the management” was running things.

The difference is that Sts. Teresa, John, and Ignatius followed company procedures for lodging a complaint, and also made proposals for solutions (and waited for the proposals to be approved before implementing them), instead of saying, “Fix this or else I’m quitting.”

In regards to Teresa and John, their ‘reforms’ were not of a company wide reform or complaint. They were both part of the accounting department and complained that AP was being handled badly. They set off doing their own AP work in their own little offices. After being barred from the company lounge for a short time, upper management allowed the reform in the accounting department and allowed them to split off in their own AP department. This was quite different than questioning all of the management and it’s running of the company.

And I guess one could say that there was a great schism in the land of O Carm which really has never healed.