Why don't Catholics look to ban contraception?

[Bradski]

We are not trying to deny people their freedom of choice. People can always choose.

This is a pretty simple problem to solve: if you think it’s a sin, don’t do it. If contraception is wrong, don’t use it. But when the argument is: ’we (Catholics) don’t think it’s right because x, y and z’, and the vast majority of Catholics have used, or are using contraception, then that argument is going to fall on deaf ears.

It’s like someone with a cigarette hanging out of the corner of his mouth telling me that tobacco should be banned.

 

[ValPal]

Onansm is nothing new. Hormonal contraception, surgical sterilization, suction abortion, contraceptives in schools, that’s something new.

They’re simply new twists on old methods. Other methods have been abandoned, which I’m not going to mention because several are offensive in nature.

 

[Nate13]

Contraception is intrinsically evil according to Catholicism. So why don’t Catholics look to ban it? They think that gay marriage should be outlawed, so why not contraception? Why the double standard?

Pretty simple, gay marriage is not equal to traditional marriage and not seeing it equal to traditional marriage is not the same as outlawing it. No one has been put in jail for marrying someone of the same sex last time I checked. Likewise my faith compels me to want all public funding and promotion of contracepting to end because I believe its bad for society. However, I do not believe the government has a compelling enough interest to take it upon itself to outlaw contraception. However, if you support the government funding contraception you by default also recognize that the government could make it illegal. By supporting funding your saying the government has a legitimate interest in contraception. If you truly believe making it illegal would be an intrusion of government you should also believe funding it is an intrusion. The truth is you support government intrusion as long as its the kind of intrusion you like.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

This is a pretty simple problem to solve: if you think it’s a sin, don’t do it. If contraception is wrong, don’t use it. But when the argument is: ’we (Catholics) don’t think it’s right because x, y and z’, and the vast majority of Catholics have used, or are using contraception, then that argument is going to fall on deaf ears.
It’s like someone with a cigarette hanging out of the corner of his mouth telling me that tobacco should be banned.

You should listen to a person with a cig hanging from their mouth saying tobacco should be banned!!! They know as they are enslaved to it. Quit date tobacco = 12/4/2005!!! Quit date BCP’s when I had a stroke at 19. Both lead to death.
Now, if a vegitarian (religious faithful) said they used to eat meat, but found it’s harmful to their health & the worlds environment they’d get media coverage on The View and other day TV. But since The Cattlemans Assosiation (Planned Parenthood) has too many strings in day TV, it’s ignored.

Now, socially as a whole we can measure the eroding decline of society since the BCP. Pope Paul VI wrote about this before it happened in Humane Vitea. vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

 

[thewanderer]

This is a pretty simple problem to solve: if you think it’s a sin, don’t do it. If contraception is wrong, don’t use it. But when the argument is: ’we (Catholics) don’t think it’s right because x, y and z’, and the vast majority of Catholics have used, or are using contraception, then that argument is going to fall on deaf ears.

It’s like someone with a cigarette hanging out of the corner of his mouth telling me that tobacco should be banned.

I hate the argument that since lots of catholics use contraception (though fewer than the misleading 98% statistic) therefor no Catholics can talk about it being wrong. That is ridiculous, that is like saying that since there are tons of Americans who have abortions then I, as an American, would be hypocritical if I gave reasons why I think abortion is wrong. Just because someone shares the same label as you doesn’t mean you are hypocritical for believing something differently than they do.

 

[Bradski]

I hate the argument that since lots of catholics use contraception (though fewer than the misleading 98% statistic) therefor no Catholics can talk about it being wrong.

The percentage currently using it is not 98%. That’s the total percentage of Catholic women who have used or are using it. And I’m not saying that no Catholics can talk about it. I’m suggesting that it’s hypocritical for all those using contraception to tell the rest of us that we shouldn’t be using it.

So the ‘we’ you refer to when talking about the Catholic position on this doesn’t include the vast majority of Catholics themselves.

I’m certainly not interested in any religious argument against contraception and you’re in a very small minority in regard to the secular argument even within your own church.

 

[Nate13]

The percentage currently using it is not 98%. That’s the total percentage of Catholic women who have used or are using it. And I’m not saying that no Catholics can talk about it. I’m suggesting that it’s hypocritical for all those using contraception to tell the rest of us that we shouldn’t be using it.

So the ‘we’ you refer to when talking about the Catholic position on this doesn’t include the vast majority of Catholics themselves.

I’m certainly not interested in any religious argument against contraception and you’re in a very small minority in regard to the secular argument even within your own church.

98% of Catholics have probably stolen something at some point in their life too. They probably may have even believed it was wrong at the time but did it anyways. Part of being human is that our wills are not always strong enough to make us act in the way our intellects tell us we should. The number of obese people is an easy example of how self-evident this is. While currently not being able to act as your intellect might tell you to act may hurt your case, it does not harm the argument itself especially when there are many examples of it being implemented successfully by others. A poll at my church showed that 75% agreed with Church teaching on birth control. While this is a small sample of a whole I’m sure you would easily find that a majority of Catholics that attend weekly mass agree with the Church’s teaching on birth control. There is a sizeable number of Catholics that disagree with the Church on a range of controversial issues and I know its a surprise but most of those that have serious disagreements with the Church don’t go to mass weekly. Around 30% of Catholics attend mass weekly.

 

[thewanderer]

The percentage currently using it is not 98%. That’s the total percentage of Catholic women who have used or are using it. And I’m not saying that no Catholics can talk about it. I’m suggesting that it’s hypocritical for all those using contraception to tell the rest of us that we shouldn’t be using it.

So the ‘we’ you refer to when talking about the Catholic position on this doesn’t include the vast majority of Catholics themselves.

Nate13 already gave an excellent response to this. Basically, the only conclusion that the poll is able to draw is that 98 percent of the Catholic women that they chose to question (they excluded pregnant, postpartum, and those planning on becoming pregnant) had used contraception at least once sometime in their life. Your claim that the vast majority of Catholics are hypocrites if they argue against contraception fails to take into account that 1) there was a whole section of women excluded from this survey 2) someone could have used contraception before converting to Catholicism, or before learning what the Church’s actual teachings were and have since stopped using them. Or even have used them in the past knowing the Church’s teachings but then had their minds changed about what they were doing and so changed the way they live. Calling these people hypocrites for speaking against contraception is like calling someone who had an abortion but later regretted it and decided to speak out against abortion a hypocrite.
I’m not trying to claim that all Catholics follow church teaching on this matter… but then again there are a whole bunch of catholics who feel fine telling people it is fine to use contraceptives. Basically, all I was trying to say is that you shouldn’t just lash out and call Catholics hypocritical without actual evidence. If you can find a whole bunch of Catholics who use contraception and still speak out against it to others, then go ahead, you can call those specific Catholics hypocrites. But please do not apply the title so liberally as you have in this thread.

I’m certainly not interested in any religious argument against contraception and you’re in a very small minority in regard to the secular argument even within your own church.

Just in case you missed it earlier in this thread, I was one of the people who were against the banning of contraceptives by the govt. I’m not trying to force religious beliefs on anybody, I am just asking that you be a little more careful about throwing around insulting labels such as hypocrite.

 

[Bradski]

If you can find a whole bunch of Catholics who use contraception and still speak out against it to others, then go ahead, you can call those specific Catholics hypocrites. But please do not apply the title so liberally as you have in this thread.

It’s not being used liberally. If you check back to see what I wrote, I accused those Catholics who are using contraception of being hypocritical. That would be the majority, but not all.

I’m suggesting that it’s hypocritical for all those using contraception to tell the rest of us that we shouldn’t be using it.

I’ve no problem if you see contraception as morally wrong. I’ve no problem if the Vatican sees contraception as morally wrong. But when you say: ‘The Church thinks it’s morally wrong’, what you actually mean is that: ‘15% of the Church thinks that it’s morally wrong’.

Although the use of contraception is forbidden by Catholic Church doctrine, just 15% of U.S. Catholics say that using contraceptives is morally wrong. pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=1514

Let’s bear that in mind.

 

[Elizium23]

I’ve no problem if you see contraception as morally wrong. I’ve no problem if the Vatican sees contraception as morally wrong. But when you say: ‘The Church thinks it’s morally wrong’, what you actually mean is that: ‘15% of the Church thinks that it’s morally wrong’.

Incorrect. When we say “The Church does this” or “The Church does that”, what we mean is that the Church, founded by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit, on the pillars of Sacred Scripture, Holy Tradition, and the Magisterium, by her authority does a certain thing. What doesn’t matter one whit is how the people in the pews feel about it. The laity can rob, murder, masturbate, contracept, rape, miss Mass, eat meat every day, all they want, and that doesn’t change a single thing about the character of the institutional Church. For that matter, the clergy up to the Pope can commit the aforementioned sins and believe whatever they want, because nobody is impeccable, but the gates of Hell do not prevail against the Church, protected by the Holy Spirit, transmitting the faith by the infallible Magisterium.

I use profanity on a regular basis, which sends me to Confession like clockwork. That doesn’t mean I must remain silent or tolerate others who use profanity. It is still morally wrong and I am against it. Just because someone believes something to be morally wrong does not prevent that person from committing that sin.

 

[thewanderer]

It’s not being used liberally. If you check back to see what I wrote, I accused those Catholics who are using contraception of being hypocritical. That would be the majority, but not all.

I am sorry if I jumped the gun on this one. I was reponding to how your post came across. What made me think you were using it too liberally was this.

But when the argument is: ’we (Catholics) don’t think it’s right because x, y and z’, and the vast majority of Catholics have used, or are using contraception, then that argument is going to fall on deaf ears.

It’s like someone with a cigarette hanging out of the corner of his mouth telling me that tobacco should be banned.

I see now that it is probably a matter of meaning different things when we say that Catholics don’t think it is right. It could either be taken to mean the sum total of opinions of all of those who self-identify as Catholic or have been baptized into the Catholic faith. Or it could be taken to mean the official stance of the Catholic Church. If understood in this latter sense then it would seem as though you were being unfair in your assesment. If all you meant was the former, the sum total of the opinions of all those who self-identify as Catholic, then I see that I misunderstood you and I apologize for previous responses.

 

[thewanderer]

Incorrect. When we say “The Church does this” or “The Church does that”, what we mean is that the Church, founded by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit, on the pillars of Sacred Scripture, Holy Tradition, and the Magisterium, by her authority does a certain thing. What doesn’t matter one whit is how the people in the pews feel about it. The laity can rob, murder, masturbate, contracept, rape, miss Mass, eat meat every day, all they want, and that doesn’t change a single thing about the character of the institutional Church. For that matter, the clergy up to the Pope can commit the aforementioned sins and believe whatever they want, because nobody is impeccable, but the gates of Hell do not prevail against the Church, protected by the Holy Spirit, transmitting the faith by the infallible Magisterium.

I use profanity on a regular basis, which sends me to Confession like clockwork. That doesn’t mean I must remain silent or tolerate others who use profanity. It is still morally wrong and I am against it. Just because someone believes something to be morally wrong does not prevent that person from committing that sin.

This.

 

[Bradski]

I see now that it is probably a matter of meaning different things when we say that Catholics don’t think it is right. It could either be taken to mean the sum total of opinions of all of those who self-identify as Catholic or have been baptized into the Catholic faith. Or it could be taken to mean the official stance of the Catholic Church.

Then then fault is mine in not explaining myself well enough. I’m posting on a Catholic forum and talking to Catholic laity and I believe that opinions expressed here are those of the individual posting.

I appreciate that most, if not all the views that you, and others, express are those of the Vatican, if I can put it as such. But I’m not going to debate matters such as contraception from a theological viewpoint. Mine is a secular view and if we discuss contraception then I’m not going to view your opinions as anything other than your personal views. Even if they are in lock-step with church teachings.

I cannot do do anything else because it is undeniable that simply being a Catholic does not mean you agree with all church teachings.

So if you say that ‘Catholics believe x, y and z’, I take that to be the majority of Catholics. Just as you should assume that I mean the majority of my countrymen if I say: ‘Australians believe x,y and z’.

 

[thewanderer]

Then then fault is mine in not explaining myself well enough. I’m posting on a Catholic forum and talking to Catholic laity and I believe that opinions expressed here are those of the individual posting.

I appreciate that most, if not all the views that you, and others, express are those of the Vatican, if I can put it as such. But I’m not going to debate matters such as contraception from a theological viewpoint. Mine is a secular view and if we discuss contraception then I’m not going to view your opinions as anything other than your personal views. Even if they are in lock-step with church teachings.

I cannot do do anything else because it is undeniable that simply being a Catholic does not mean you agree with all church teachings.

So if you say that ‘Catholics believe x, y and z’, I take that to be the majority of Catholics. Just as you should assume that I mean the majority of my countrymen if I say: ‘Australians believe x,y and z’.

There is a difference because the Church is not set up as a democracy. Look all this is besides the point. Whether you like it or not, often when Catholics (and quite a few non-Catholics as well) that “Catholics believe x, y, and z” they mean what you mean by “the Vatican believes”. If you want to be understood by them correctly you will need to either use this term as they do or else explain to that you are using it in a different way than they are used to hearing.

Look at it this way, if you met someone who had never heard of America and they asked you about Americans, would I not be vey natural to reply by saying that Americans believe x,y, and z when you use the word Americans to mean not the majorty of those who are American, but rather what tue founding principles of this country are? Maybe this way of speaking is not familiar to you, but it is a figure of speech used by many, so please keep this in mind the next time you hear people talking about what Catholics believe. I is not wrong to use the word that way, it is just a different way of speaking.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

They don’t?

It seems there are plenty of people, even on this very forum, that want to turn America into a Christian theocracy. That’s certainly a worse agenda than that I’ve seen of any other group. It would certainly affect more people negatively. There’s a guy on here and he’s probably my favourite Catholic on this forum. He’s rational, and he lives in the real world, unlike lots of folk. I think he summed up the idea of banning contraception better than I could:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9761262&postcount=47

 

[fix]

They don’t?

It seems there are plenty of people, even on this very forum, that want to turn America into a Christian theocracy. That’s certainly a worse agenda than that I’ve seen of any other group. It would certainly affect more people negatively. There’s a guy on here and he’s probably my favourite Catholic on this forum. He’s rational, and he lives in the real world, unlike lots of folk. I think he summed up the idea of banning contraception better than I could:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9761262&postcount=47

Contraceptives sales used to be banned, sodomy was banned, abortion was illegal, and much else. The Country was not a theocracy then.

 

[ValPal]

Contraceptives sales used to be banned, sodomy was banned, abortion was illegal, and much else. The Country was not a theocracy then.

You have to be careful with this. In the U.S., these were state issues, not federal issues. The level of strictness regarding these issues was related to the level of religious strictness in a particular state. Some states were more “theocratic” than others.

In fact, if memory serves me correctly, I believe there were even state religions established in certain states early on. The federal government could not establish a religion, but that did not necessarily mean states could not. Obviously later on this was applied to states.

 

[fix]

You have to be careful with this. In the U.S., these were state issues, not federal issues. The level of strictness regarding these issues was related to the level of religious strictness in a particular state. Some states were more “theocratic” than others.

In fact, if memory serves me correctly, I believe there were even state religions established in certain states early on. The federal government could not establish a religion, but that did not necessarily mean states could not. Obviously later on this was applied to states.

OK, but take sodomy laws for example. They existed for a long time. The SC upheld them in 1986. There was no theocracy then.

Striking down these old laws can lead to real trouble:

Arguments now being made against anti-sodomy laws also were made then. Some Catholics said striking down the anti-contraception statute was in line with the Church’s moral tradition. “Little did Catholics realize,” writes Donald Critchlow in his history of the birth control and abortion movements, Intended Consequences, “that the Griswold decision, with its privacy doctrine, would become the basis for legalizing abortion.”

That happened eight years later. In Roe v. Wade Justice Harry Blackmun used the privacy principle to rationalize legalization of abortion on demand. Justice William Brennan, a Catholic, tutored Blackmun, as earlier he had Douglas, to lean on privacy to get the desired result.

 

[ValPal]

OK, but take sodomy laws for example. They existed for a long time. The SC upheld them in 1986. There was no theocracy then.

That’s because once laws are on the books, they are difficult to get off. Take a liberal state like NY. Adultery is illegal. However, it’s just ignored. Once in a blue moon someone brings up the charge as, say, part of a divorce, but of course it gets dropped.

Blues laws pertaining to alcohol were on the books for hundreds of years in NY, originally for religious reasons, and it was only within the past decade that they were finally dumped. It’s stunning that they remained on the book for that long, given the liberalness and activism in that state.

There are also tons of other regulations that were never taken off the books, but simply became unenforceable by some other effect of law. My favorite is a deed restriction on one of my friend’s properties, placed there during the Civil War, stating the property owners cannot “harbor Tories.” Still in place after hundreds of years…obviously unenforceable.

Striking down these old laws can lead to real trouble:

Once again, you have to be careful with government involvement in legislating behavior. In the U.S., you will not get the Catholic perspective; you will get the Protestant one. That’s effectively what you have now. I rather have the government stay out of such things, otherwise you end up with laws basically imposed immorality on the religious belief system of others.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Contraceptives sales used to be banned, sodomy was banned, abortion was illegal, and much else. The Country was not a theocracy then.

Yes, but those things were still banned due to Christianity. Besides, you can’t claim we should ban something now because it was banned in the past. As I said on a different thread, America has never been a Christian theocracy because it was founded as a secular nation. Despite this, though, there are some Christians who believe it should be a theocracy, and try to sneak their religious laws into the system. I’ve heard Christians claim that every school should be a faith school, for example.

OK, but take sodomy laws for example. They existed for a long time. The SC upheld them in 1986. There was no theocracy then.

But it may as well have been. Despite America being founded as a secular nation, as I said, there have been all kinds of people that believe America should be a theocracy, and there still are quite a few politicians who claim that America is a Christian nation.

OK, but take sodomy laws for example. They existed for a long time. The SC upheld them in 1986. There was no theocracy then.

Striking down these old laws can lead to real trouble:

I think it’s a shame that people would use that to legalise abortion, but contraception and abortion aren’t the same thing. It’s important to remember that. It’s absurd to claim that contraception should be illegal to prevent abortion like it is to claim that sodomy laws should be put in place to prevent same-sex marriage.