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st_julie
Guest
They have not recieved the divine and catholic faith yet!
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Sixtus
Guest
They are still waiting for His coming and they will not be disappointed.
Just that our Second coming will be their FIRST
They are expecting Him to come with great power and might.
I kinda think they will not be disappointed
Just that our Second coming will be their FIRST
They are expecting Him to come with great power and might.
I kinda think they will not be disappointed
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Trad_Catholic_1
Guest
This is absolutely correct. The Jews once held a special place in God’s heart but they are now an accursed people and will remain so until the end of time and no amount of wishy-washy watered down “feel good” theology will alter that fact. This is the awful truth. They invoked a dreadful curse upon their own heads in saying: “His blood be on us and our children”. Jews still inherit the blood-guilt of their fathers. They cannot undo that any more than we can undo the deed of Adam. We are all doomed to Hell. It is only through the love of God, His Grace we are spared that fate. The same applies to Jews. It is the only solution.
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I_A
Guest
Trad Catholic,
It is only because of the blood on our heads that he saves us:
1 Peter 1-2:
What it comes down to is is the old covenent one that saves or one that prepares for salvation.
It is only because of the blood on our heads that he saves us:
1 Peter 1-2:
I have heard the people in the court were speaking for the whole human race when they hollared “Crucify him” otherwise Christ’s blood wouldn’t be on our heads and we wouldn’t be saved.
What it comes down to is is the old covenent one that saves or one that prepares for salvation.
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Montalban
Guest
They say that the Messiah is to come from a particular house, but all such records were destroyed when Jerusalem fell to the Romans c.70AD meaning that no one would be able to check this one out. (Note that this happened after Jesus who has such lineage)
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Trad_Catholic_1
Guest
Hmmmm. Interesting interpretation.
In His Sermon on the Mount, Jesus presented His mission as the fulfillment of Judaism: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17). The Church has thus become the perfection and the replacement of the Jewish one.
Later (Matthew 5:8), Jesus announces that the messiah rejected by Israel will be accepted by the Gentiles but, for the moment, He still instructs the apostles (Matthew 10:5): “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not,” exhorting them rather to “go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” When their message is repulsed by the Jews, He then predicts the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the persecution of the Jews.
Jesus was sentenced to death by the Sanhedrin. “Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, and consulted that they might take Jesus by surprise, and kill Him (Matthew 26:3).”
Pilate, “washed his hands” of Christ’s fate. “I am innocent of the blood of this just person,” he cried to the Jews. And the people replied in unison: “His blood be on us, and on our children (Matthew 27:24-26).” The story concludes with the final insult from the Jews: they refuse to believe the announcement of Jesus’s resurrection and spread the word that the body of Christ has been stolen and hidden by his followers. Matthew comments: “This saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.”
No. Somehow I think the Jews were speaking for no one but themselves.
In Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, Paul poses the problem of the Jews’ refusal to convert, and does not really know how to respond. For him, it is the source of a great deal of sadness: the chosen people, to which he himself belongs by birth, do not live up to their status as the chosen of God.
Paul found partial consolation in affirming that the fall of the Jews, who were incapable of recognizing God in Christ, was to the benefit of the Gentiles, who were now given the opportunity to inherit the salvation that was once the Jews’ exclusive province. A “new” Church now replaced that which had existed since the time of Moses.
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Kaninchen
Guest
So, in the list of bad guys, you reckon we’re the worst?
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Trad_Catholic_1
Guest
Understand this. It’s not about you; it’s not about me. It’s about God. If you’re the worst in the list of bad guys then you are exactly whom Jesus came to earth to save.
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Kaninchen
Guest
From what? … Ok, there’s absolutely no need for us to rehearse the “Why?/Why not?” ritual arguments which will impress neither of us at all and, very likely, bore both of us to tears.
My original question still stands but it’s not important.
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Trad_Catholic_1
Guest
You’re right. It’s not important. No, I don’t believe that Jewish people are the worst of all bad guys - not even 1st century Jews who called for His crucifixion. But in the end my opinion is of no consequence. Ourselves, our children, our grandchildren, our great grandchilden, whether Jewish or Gentile, whether rich or poor, happy or sad, whether we live in pleasure or pain, even whether we deserve it or not, we are all on a one way trip to hell. Now, that’s not fair, but it is a fact. And that’s what is important to know. Church teaching makes no sense outside of that.
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Hastrman
Guest
Ridiculous. Who would? The only way the Jews are worse than any other tribe (and they’re better than a huge bunch) is that it’s kind of their duty to do better–keeping the Law, and all that.
An interesting interpretation of the role of the Jews and the Romans in the Crucifixion was in G. K. Chesterton’s book, The Everlasting Man. His idea (a mystical idea) is that the Jews, the best religion in the world, and the Romans, the best government in the world, had to go completely wrong, as wrong as the universe is allowed to go, before the redemptive act of Christ’s death could be completed.
I realize Jews will argue with the premise (that Jesus is the Messiah), but conceding that (for the sake of the argument), it is a pretty interesting way of looking at it.
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Godhead
Guest
I don’t think they believe in Jesus because they are the people that gave us the fear of God. I think they fear God so much and are so guilty in sin–that when someone like Jesus comes along, they don’t believe that God can give them forgiveness.I found an interesting article written by a rabbi about why Jews don’t regard Jesus as the Messiah. Here is the link:
Redirecting...
Some of the interesting points Rabbi Simmons makes is that in Judaism, belief is based solely on national revelation. Do Christians accept only national revelation as well? If not, how does one know what revelation to follow? Another interesting statement that the rabbi makes is that Judaism believes in the “Seven Laws of Noah” for non-Jews. Does anybody know what these are? How would a Christian respond to the rabbi’s article? Thanks in advance for any answers!
It all has to do with their beliefs, they are waiting for a messiah that will make things all better; but they don’t realize Jesus is the answer to their problems; even after 2000 years they find that Jesus isn’t the one who can solve their problems because a Jew is looking for salvation, in this life time; but Jesus says salvation comes in the afterlife–that is something they can’t accept.
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Valke2
Guest
You have to remember that from a Jewish point of view there is a big difference between the Messiah and God. We are not looking for a Messiah that will be God in corporeal form. We do not believe the Messiah will be God in the flesh.
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Sagefrakrobatik
Guest
In addition messianism isnt a central tenant of Judaism. Also interesting is that in the Baba Baritha a portion of the talmud, There is a section which talks about the coming of both the holy one, and the rightegous, as two seperate beings. Something else i discovered that i thought was interested while reading the Talmud is that one of the Rabbies refrences a book called the book of Ben Shira (eclisiasticus) This same book is found in the Latin Vulgate.
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Valke2
Guest
Well, belief in that the Messiah will come is one of the 13 principles of Jewish faith set forth by Rambam.
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ricmat
Guest
To your point which I highlighted above: I think that there’s an important point here that perhaps you’re missing.
Jesus atonement for sins, our salvation, was intended for all mankind - Jews and Gentiles alike. The sins which he died for on the cross are sins of both Jews and Gentiles.
The Jews were obviously involved in the crucifixion, but it was the Romans (Gentiles) who scourged him, pounded in the nails, pierced his side, etc.
Is it not fitting that because he died for ALL our sins, that ALL should have been directly involved in the crucifixion?
Actually, if somehow Jesus had been killed ONLY by Jews, with no gentile involvement at all, that would be very peculiar. In fact, it would make me worry a great deal.
And you seem to be making the point that it was only the rejection of the Jews which opened the door for gentiles to inherit salvation…but wasn’t it God’s plan all along that the 6th covenant (the new covenant) would be for all humanity?
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artist3189
Guest
The Catholic Bible still includes this book, in the Latin, ‘Ecclesiasticus’ but now just known as the ‘Book of Sirach’. Keep in mind that the thought and formation of the Talmud is mostly ‘post biblical’ in nature and reflects thinking and theology* after* Christ’s time, so the continuous development of this theology, from the Old Testament, is something to be expected.
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Sagefrakrobatik
Guest
When i came upon the verse listed as a reference it had nothing to do with what it was refering to. Aditionally in the introductory paragrah to the Exciasticus (Sp?) the author firmly states that the Jews purposely kept this book out of the cannonical order. but why would a jew use it for a reference then?
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Sagefrakrobatik
Guest
Thanks for the correct spelling
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Trad_Catholic_1
Guest
Christ was not invented by Gentiles. He was presented to Gentiles by Jews themselves. Despite the modernist interpretation there is no reason to suppose there was some sort of multifaith/multicultural mix at the crucifixion
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