Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?

[Valke2]

Could you give a citation from the Tanakh (Old Testament) for the “glory and radiance”? I wasn’t aware we were expecting a radiating Messiah.

Sounds like he will be able to make microwave popcorn just by holding the bag.

The last person to radiate the Glory of God was Moses (I think).

 

[Kaninchen]

Sounds like he will be able to make microwave popcorn just by holding the bag.

The last person to radiate the Glory of God was Moses (I think).

Yes but that was after a “Close Encounter” wasn’t it? You’d expect something like that.

I don’t remember anything about him radiating from the start, in the bullrushes for example, nothing to suggest we should be awaiting amazing stories from a maternity hospital somewhere.

I think the “glory and radiance” is a case of leaky eschatology.

 

[Valke2]

Yes but that was after a “Close Encounter” wasn’t it? You’d expect something like that.

I don’t remember anything about him radiating from the start, in the bullrushes for example, nothing to suggest we should be awaiting amazing stories from a maternity hospital somewhere.

I think the “glory and radiance” is a case of leaky eschatology.

Only after meeting with Hashem. You’re right. Maybe Christians believe Jesus is simply appearing without being born this time?

 

[Evan]

Sounds like he will be able to make microwave popcorn just by holding the bag.

The last person to radiate the Glory of God was Moses (I think).

There was the transfiguration. ‘Dazzeling white’.
Then there was Mr. Clean. (He may have only been a cartoon figure, but he did raditate).

Only after meeting with Hashem. You’re right. Maybe Christians believe Jesus is simply appearing without being born this time?

I think all Christians believe Jesus is siimply appearing without being born. The NT says he will “Return” in glory, with trumpets and all the fanfair of a Regal, cancel that, a Theophanic announcement.

 

[DLC]

If the personal pronouns refer to Israel, how Is Israel healed of their sins by their own stripes?
Isa 53:5-6

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
KJV

 

[Valke2]

If the personal pronouns refer to Israel, how Is Israel healed of their sins by their own stripes?
Isa 53:5-6

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
KJV

again, “wounded from our transgressions…”
The other nations are talking about Israel (the “He”). Through Israel the other nations will turn away from sin and worship God.

Why not start an Isaiah 53 thread (should actually start with 52) and we can discuss it line by line. But I’m pretty sure you already know the jewish take on this, as I’ve told it to you both on this thread, other threads and in PM. If you are just trying to convince me that I’m wrong, we’ll just be wasting each other’s time. If you want to exchange views, that’s fine.

 

[jonfan]

again, “wounded from our transgressions…”
The other nations are talking about Israel (the “He”). Through Israel the other nations will turn away from sin and worship God.

Why not start an Isaiah 53 thread (should actually start with 52) and we can discuss it line by line. But I’m pretty sure you already know the jewish take on this, as I’ve told it to you both on this thread, other threads and in PM. If you are just trying to convince me that I’m wrong, we’ll just be wasting each other’s time. If you want to exchange views, that’s fine.

Hi Valke,
Are you saying in jewish belief the ‘he’ is not the Messiah?
Thanks!

 

[jonfan]

What does this mean in Jewish thought?

Psalm 2:7. The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Yes, they are trying to (or have succeeded) in breeding a red heifer (if you believe the website and the photo). I’m just saying I doubt very much they would be able to have the Temple up and running in half a day.

As for Jews looking forward to the Temple more than the Messiah, keep in mind that the group you read about (i.e., those breeding the red cows) have their beliefs and the other Jews have their own. But also keep in mind that the Messiah is not God, according to us. And the Temple, many believe, will hold the glory/spirit of Hashem and will be the most holy place on earth. So it is understandable when someone says they look forward to the Temple more than the Messiah.

Well I was surprised about the cow and since they are in corroporation with some in my province it picked my interest. btw the cow they did breed had I think it was black hairs show up so its not good. So they are still trying , unless something has happened in the past months. Personally I thought if the cow was to be supplied by God then I cant understand the breeding, one would think that even if pure, its not Gods hand.

It doesnt suprpise me that different Jews have different ideas, so do alot here on this site and other sites. When I home later Ill post the rabbi Im interested if youve heard of him.

So why is Messiah not God?

I can see the temple being sacred place on earth. In christian thinking (Im sure you know but just so we are on the same page) God is going to rebuild the whole thing, but after Messiah returns.

 

[Valke2]

Hi Valke,
Are you saying in jewish belief the ‘he’ is not the Messiah?
Thanks!

Hi Jofan. Yes. Although you can find some references that say otherwise, I’m sure. Judaism doesn’t have a whole lot of dogma so it is always tricky to give definitive answers. But I am confident my explanation is the one adopted by the majority of jews, whether they are orthodox or conservative (or reform, I think).

 

[Valke2]

What does this mean in Jewish thought?

Psalm 2:7. The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.

First, I’d like to ask you what you make of it? How does God telling Jesus he has “begotten” him make sense in light of the belief of Trinity? Was there no trinity before the birth of Jesus? I thought Jesus was supposed to have been always, or eternally begotten? Of course, it can’t even be viewed as speaking about the birth of Jesus because the verse is past tense, as at least some Christian translations confirm.

 

[Valke2]

Psalm 89:20 shows that King David was 1: the annointed one; and 2 referred to as Hashem’s first born. and 3. That David will call God “my father”. Psalm 2 parallel’s this. All Jews are called the Children of God in many places in scripture. I can’t get to my translation and commentary on Psalm 2 right now, but when I do, I’ll be happy to post more.

 

[Valke2]

So why is Messiah not God?

I can see the temple being sacred place on earth. In christian thinking (Im sure you know but just so we are on the same page) God is going to rebuild the whole thing, but after Messiah returns.

We also believe the Temple will be rebuilt when the Messiah gets here. Whether the Messiah will actually do it, be responsible for it, or whether it will just be a sign that we are entering the Messianic Age, is debateable within Judaism.

There’s nothing in scripture, as we see it, that indicates the Messiah will be God. Usually, when asked this, I would quote the verse in (I think) Leviticus where God says “I am not a man…” But there are other reasons. Basically, for an idea as important as the Messiah being God, we would expect it to be in bold print with arrows pointing to it in our scripture.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

We also believe the Temple will be rebuilt when the Messiah gets here. Whether the Messiah will actually do it, be responsible for it, or whether it will just be a sign that we are entering the Messianic Age, is debateable within Judaism.

There’s nothing in scripture, as we see it, that indicates the Messiah will be God. Usually, when asked this, I would quote the verse in (I think) Leviticus where God says “I am not a man…” But there are other reasons. Basically, for an idea as important as the Messiah being God, we would expect it to be in bold print with arrows pointing to it in our scripture.

So we sorta are on the same page regarding the Temple rebuilding, its gonna happen just when. Christian thought on this is debatable as well. I think that however it happens a sign is at least what its going to be.

I guess if theres nothing about Messiah being God makes sense in a way. When you said God said Hes not a man, it stands why in the Christian thought, that He wasnt, but Jesus was a man, but still God.

The following is discussing Faith versus Signs or Appearances of God (dont quite know how to phrase that) not a comment on any belief:

It would be nice for things to be in bold print with arrows but I really dont think God has left that option for us. The days of the Pillar of Cloud or visable shows of God are over, for now, I believe they will come back.

But even then when people saw Moses, saw that Cloud, saw the sea part. They still stopped believing. I found this out speaking with athiests they insist on proof. I insist that when people had proof it still didnt matter to some. Thats why I said God hasnt left that option for us, He wants our Faith. He made a promise that we could trust Him, we just need to believe and trust that.

 

[Valke2]

So we sorta are on the same page regarding the Temple rebuilding, its gonna happen just when. Christian thought on this is debatable as well. I think that however it happens a sign is at least what its going to be.

I guess if theres nothing about Messiah being God makes sense in a way. When you said God said Hes not a man, it stands why in the Christian thought, that He wasnt, but Jesus was a man, but still God.

The following is discussing Faith versus Signs or Appearances of God (dont quite know how to phrase that) not a comment on any belief:

It would be nice for things to be in bold print with arrows but I really dont think God has left that option for us. The days of the Pillar of Cloud or visable shows of God are over, for now, I believe they will come back.

But even then when people saw Moses, saw that Cloud, saw the sea part. They still stopped believing. I found this out speaking with athiests they insist on proof. I insist that when people had proof it still didnt matter to some. Thats why I said God hasnt left that option for us, He wants our Faith. He made a promise that we could trust Him, we just need to believe and trust that.

I agree that miracles often do not ensure belief. But God can be quite clear when He wants to. “Thou shall not murder.” We might argue over what constitutes murder, but it is clear that murder is prohibited. We might debate as to how and when God created the world. But there’s no debate that He created it (based on Scripture). I believe that if God came to Earth as a man, He would be more explicit in stating who He was, and that fact would be important enough that it would be prominently mentioned in all four Gospels.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Jesus does state that I AM, the first and last. Theres other things Id have to dig up for ya. But I have no time at present. If anyone else has it handy that would be fine.

 

[Kaninchen]

Jesus does state that I AM, the first and last. Theres other things Id have to dig up for ya. But I have no time at present. If anyone else has it handy that would be fine.

It’s not in the Tanakh though Kitty so, to us, it’s not evidence.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

It’s not in the Tanakh though Kitty so, to us, it’s not evidence.

Fair enough, but there are those that say the Jewish writings didnt actually exist as well. And God is just a figment of imagination of people who didnt know any better so created things to explain their world.

But it doesnt make for good conversation

 

[Valke2]

Fair enough, but there are those that say the Jewish writings didnt actually exist as well. And God is just a figment of imagination of people who didnt know any better so created things to explain their world.

But it doesnt make for good conversation

But it doesn’t say that in all the Gospels. A proclamation of Godhood should, I think, be the central theme of all the Gospels.

 

[Kaninchen]

Fair enough, but there are those that say the Jewish writings didnt actually exist as well. And God is just a figment of imagination of people who didnt know any better so created things to explain their world.

But it doesnt make for good conversation

Yes but it really does help if you try to establish a point by using what is commonly held rather than what is in dispute.

Meanwhile, while it’s some time since I read the NT, I seem to remember that Jesus himself was rather careful (well, as reported) about what he was saying. Sometimes, phrases (like Son of God) read differently from different perspectives (we’re all sons and daughters of God), of course.