Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?

[Kitty_Chan]

But it doesn’t say that in all the Gospels. A proclamation of Godhood should, I think, be the central theme of all the Gospels.

Each writer probably had a specific goal of what he wanted to put across, if all 4 say were the same then why not have 1? All from a slightly different perspective. John writing Revelation is patterned after a Kings tournanment or something like that, with the King addressing the areas etc, John wanted the reader to get that Jesus is King. (this is probably a poor description, sorry)

Each writer wanted to emphasis something, even numbers goes on and on about who begat and thats not a mistake, but its not like any other part, but still belongs. All of the Bible still does not contain all that can be said.

Because if we knew then Faith would not exist. Its all to find out and seek its not as hidden as one thinks.

When I didnt believe God exists I thought a totally different way, when I believed then so much more came into view, Thats why eyes are blind and now see.

 

[Valke2]

Each writer probably had a specific goal of what he wanted to put across, if all 4 say were the same then why not have 1?

But don’t you think that God taking human form would be kind of a big thing, that would be clearly stated in all 4 accounts? I can’t imagine 4 jews writing about revelation at Sinai and not mentioning God speaking.

I understand that all the bible does not contain all that can be said. But this seems to be a glaring omission.

Again, I’m not trying to argue why believe in Jesus isn’t justified. But I’m offering one explanation as to why Jews don’t believe in Jesus. Had Jesus claimed outright that he was GOd and had that been set forth in all four Gospels, all that would prove to us is that Jesus actually stated he was God.

 

[Evan]

But don’t you think that God taking human form would be kind of a big thing, that would be clearly stated in all 4 accounts?

It would cheapen the presence of Jesus among man. Every yahoo in the OT times was god. Caesar was god, Pharoh was god, Alexander the Great was god, Cyrus of Persia was god, Antiochus Epiphanese was god. Everywhere you turn, somebody was saying look at me, look at me, look at me, I’m a GOD!!

Jesus said, He and the Father were one. He said “I AM”. We had to consider the concept of trinitarianism, 3 persons in one God, before we could understand how He could be God and still there be God in heaven. You can’t just spring a mystery on people and expect them to glom onto it.

After all, what was going on with that whole ‘golden calf’ thing at the base of Sinai? Israel was not prepared to fully accept the revelation. Give 'em some time. God’s in no hurry.

 

[ricmat]

But don’t you think that God taking human form would be kind of a big thing, that would be clearly stated in all 4 accounts? I can’t imagine 4 jews writing about revelation at Sinai and not mentioning God speaking.

Valke2 - It would take me a while to go back and look this up (it’s not an aspect I had reason to research before), but are you sure that it isn’t mentioned in all 4 Gospels? Is that something you researched, or did someone else mention it previously in this thread (or another one)?

 

[Wildkit]

I believe that if God came to Earth as a man, He would be more explicit in stating who He was, and that fact would be important enough that it would be prominently mentioned in all four Gospels.

A timely question. In the “Ask an Apologist” section of CA the other day, the following was given by Father Serpa.

Re: Where does Scripture state that Jesus is God?

---

Hi,

I’m using the Revised Standard Bible—Catholic edition. The following passages will be essentially the same. The Gospel of John begins by acknowledging Jesus, the Word as God: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the word was God.”

Jn 8:58-59 “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.’”
“I am” in Scripture is the preeminent way God identifies Himself. See Ex 3:14

Jn 10:38 “the Father and I are one.”

Jn 12:45 “…whoever sees me sees he one who sent me.”

Jn 20:28 Jesus accepts Thomas’ profession of faith: “My Lord and my God!”

Col 2:9 “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily…”

Tit 2:13 “awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

I know you would like to see the “Jesue said” piece in all four gospels, and likely many other Jewish bretheren would as well. I don’t believe you will necessarily find it. Yet, I also believe you will see that the manner in which he is portayed with the consistent depictions of historical events, all the gospels portray the same conclusion.

One other item, the number of miracles associated with this person is unlike anything or anyone else. I especially like the Eucharistic miracle in Lanciano Italy. This website provides information on a number of these events.

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

Is this just coincidence over these vast number of years?

 

[Valke2]

Valke2 - It would take me a while to go back and look this up (it’s not an aspect I had reason to research before), but are you sure that it isn’t mentioned in all 4 Gospels? Is that something you researched, or did someone else mention it previously in this thread (or another one)?

I have no doubt that you can point out refernces in each gospel to support the concept that Jesus is God. But I’m pretty sure that there is only one gospel which claims Jesus said he was God. And it is not something that is exaclty proclaimed in public, even then. I don’t think you find Jesus saying he is God, outside of the Gospel of John.

 

[colliric]

It’s not in the Tanakh though Kitty so, to us, it’s not evidence.

For Christians the main evidence he was the Jewish messiah is:
Jesus was born in Bethlehem and Spent some of his early childhood in Egypt(its not know how much time exactly, but Herod died in 1AD which was according to the RCC traditional calculations the same year Jesus was born).as you probably know both of these are prophecy in the Old Testament.

He died in Jerusalem in April in the year 33AD(the only valid time that Passover was held on a Friday during Pilate’s Reign) on passover. He then rose the day after the Saturday Sabbath, which of cause was Sunday the first day of the week on both the Jewish calendar(although different name) and the Roman calendar(I.e the first day of creation).

For Christians, Jesus for filled one of the last verses of the book of Malachi, Ch 4:6, by showing us infinite love and how we can disperse it ourselves amongst each other. He did so by turning our heart to god, who is father of all creation… and in doing so he also turned our hearts to our earthly fathers in compassion and love.

I don’t know if I’ve made any sense, I just felt like writing something from my heart… thank you for reading it if you do.

 

[ricmat]

I have no doubt that you can point out refernces in each gospel to support the concept that Jesus is God. But I’m pretty sure that there is only one gospel which claims Jesus said he was God. And it is not something that is exaclty proclaimed in public, even then. I don’t think you find Jesus saying he is God, outside of the Gospel of John.

I actually don’t know without doing more research. It’s not an issue that typically comes up in arguments with Protestants, which is who I (and most Catholics) argue with the most

I’ll try to do some looking over the weekend and post the results (unless someone else beats me to it).

 

[Kitty_Chan]

But don’t you think that God taking human form would be kind of a big thing, that would be clearly stated in all 4 accounts? I can’t imagine 4 jews writing about revelation at Sinai and not mentioning God speaking.

I understand that all the bible does not contain all that can be said. But this seems to be a glaring omission.

Again, I’m not trying to argue why believe in Jesus isn’t justified. But I’m offering one explanation as to why Jews don’t believe in Jesus. Had Jesus claimed outright that he was GOd and had that been set forth in all four Gospels, all that would prove to us is that Jesus actually stated he was God.

Well you can look at a parallel gospels commentary to see exactly what is overlapped or not. In John Jesus claims outright He is God.

1. Bread “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger.” John 6:35
2. Light “I am the light of the world; he who fallows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.” John 8:12
3. Gate “I am the gate; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” John 10:9
4. Good Shepherd “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for His sheep.” John 10:11
5. Resurrection and Life “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies.” John 11:25
6. Way, Truth, Life “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.” John 14:6
7. True vine “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” John 15:1

John 8:58. Jesus said, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am”, which means that Jesus existed before His human life on earth.

Matthew 21 and 16 cover Jesus response, in 16 is when Jesus asks Peter who do you say I am. Peter replies You are Christ the Son of the Living God. To which Jesus states Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Johna, for flesh and blood has not reveled this to you, but my Father Who is in Heaven.

Not sure about the other 2 at this point. I think they speak about Jesus rather than quoting Him.

Which leads us back to signs, this is what is being looked for, when you say "it would prove it, only if it was in all 4 Gospels. What rule was set down it needs to be in all 4? Each writer wrote as I stated before emphasising different witness. If it was the same it would have been rolled into one. There would be no need to have 4 accounts.

 

[Valke2]

Which leads us back to signs, this is what is being looked for, when you say "it would prove it, only if it was in all 4 Gospels. What rule was set down it needs to be in all 4? Each writer wrote as I stated before emphasising different witness. If it was the same it would have been rolled into one. There would be no need to have 4 accounts.

I want to be clear. Even if Jesus said he was God in all four gospels, it would not prove that he was God (to me). I’m saying it would be stronger proof that he alleged he was God; or that even the authors all believed he was God.

YOu can still have different accounts that agree on and state the same fact, i.e., Jesus said he was God.

But even assuming that John’s account were repeated in all four gospels… as a Jew, I would then question why Jesus was so cautious in speaking of his Godhood. It is rarely, if ever, expressed in public to the Jews. Why would God decide to “fullfill” our laws, make redemption contingent upon us believing he came to earth as a human, etc., without clearly telling the people, in no uncertain terms, he was God.

The story of Jesus is often, by Christians, compared in parallel form to the story of Eden. In Genesis, we are given a crystal clear choice in whether to obey God’s one commandment. Eat from every tree but this one. THis one is a no-no.

No such choice is clearly given in the NT.

 

[Lev23]

I want to be clear. Even if Jesus said he was God in all four gospels, it would not prove that he was God (to me). I’m saying it would be stronger proof that he alleged he was God; or that even the authors all believed he was God.

YOu can still have different accounts that agree on and state the same fact, i.e., Jesus said he was God.

But even assuming that John’s account were repeated in all four gospels… as a Jew, I would then question why Jesus was so cautious in speaking of his Godhood. It is rarely, if ever, expressed in public to the Jews. Why would God decide to “fullfill” our laws, make redemption contingent upon us believing he came to earth as a human, etc., without clearly telling the people, in no uncertain terms, he was God.

The story of Jesus is often, by Christians, compared in parallel form to the story of Eden. In Genesis, we are given a crystal clear choice in whether to obey God’s one commandment. Eat from every tree but this one. THis one is a no-no.

No such choice is clearly given in the NT.

Valke, I ask you to read Jeremiah 31 and then the book of Hebrews found in the New Testamant.

 

[c659smith]

Jews my understanding do believe in Jesus as a prophet but not the Messiah that is my understanding, Jews do state in many of their historical documents of Jesus and what had occurred. They do not deny the existence of Jesus. I have never heard a Jew deny His existence. They are still awaiting the Messiah however many Jews are falling away from their religion as the more time that passes and in reading the sacred scripture of the bible convert. Please remeber that Paul was a converted Jew after the ascension.

Now first understand that Jesus was a Jew.

The Mormons although a recently new religion believe Jesus as a prophet not the messiah.

Islam believes in Jesus as a prophet and not the messiah.

and the list goes on.

Protestants from the word to protest split and fell out of communion witht the Roman Catholic church due to the strain of the inability to follow the sacred scripture, teachings, and traditions. By the way Jesus celebrating passover, was circumcised etc… followed sacred traditions so lets head off that argument as well as the argument of sacred teachings for Christ taught in the temples. The argument being I do not see that in the bible.

The Church of Jesus is the Roman Catholic Church as the Apostles were converted Jews who followed Christ and believed Jesus was the Messiah. Fullfilling the old testament conventant(promises).

Peter the first Pope. Jesus from Sacred scripture told Peter you are the rock I will build my church. If you notice not (churches)
Their is only one truth

Apostolic succession is stated in the bible with Mathias replacing
Judas.

The Catholic Church can stretch it’s roots to that time. Their can only be one church so my faith is with one holy catholic and apostolic church.

 

[c659smith]

Written over 700 years before Jesus

Why the Jews do not believe in their (our) prophets I cannot say.

The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death [a]
a light has dawned.

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, ** Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

“The bricks have fallen down,
but we will rebuild with dressed stone;
the fig trees have been felled,
but we will replace them with cedars.”**

 

[colliric]

I want to be clear. Even if Jesus said he was God in all four gospels, it would not prove that he was God (to me). I’m saying it would be stronger proof that he alleged he was God; or that even the authors all believed he was God.

YOu can still have different accounts that agree on and state the same fact, i.e., Jesus said he was God.

But even assuming that John’s account were repeated in all four gospels… as a Jew, I would then question why Jesus was so cautious in speaking of his Godhood. It is rarely, if ever, expressed in public to the Jews. Why would God decide to “fullfill” our laws, make redemption contingent upon us believing he came to earth as a human, etc., without clearly telling the people, in no uncertain terms, he was God.

The story of Jesus is often, by Christians, compared in parallel form to the story of Eden. In Genesis, we are given a crystal clear choice in whether to obey God’s one commandment. Eat from every tree but this one. THis one is a no-no.

No such choice is clearly given in the NT.

A question that comes to my mind is this:
Why would god need to clearly tell his people he’s come for their redemption on the spot? Why do we presume that god would yell out “I’m God”? Yes he did so in the past, but there were also times in the OT when God was illusive and did not reveal his work or true good intentions until later.

Also what is “no uncertain terms”, to me Jesus Ressurection was “no uncertain terms”… What you are doing here is “Boxing god in” and going “God must do what I say, otherwise he isn’t God”.

Jesus was probably cautious about saying “I’m god” because it would have brought phony believers to follow him. In other words “Yes men”. He wanted sincere believers, not just people who follow him because he said he was god, but people who believed from the messages and lessons(like the sermon on the mount) BEFORE he actually told them.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I want to be clear. Even if Jesus said he was God in all four gospels, it would not prove that he was God (to me). I’m saying it would be stronger proof that he alleged he was God; or that even the authors all believed he was God.

YOu can still have different accounts that agree on and state the same fact, i.e., Jesus said he was God.

But even assuming that John’s account were repeated in all four gospels… as a Jew, I would then question why Jesus was so cautious in speaking of his Godhood. It is rarely, if ever, expressed in public to the Jews. Why would God decide to “fullfill” our laws, make redemption contingent upon us believing he came to earth as a human, etc., without clearly telling the people, in no uncertain terms, he was God.

The story of Jesus is often, by Christians, compared in parallel form to the story of Eden. In Genesis, we are given a crystal clear choice in whether to obey God’s one commandment. Eat from every tree but this one. THis one is a no-no.

No such choice is clearly given in the NT.

I understand that you already stated that the 4 gospels was one of the things that was a problem. Im hoping you do understand that they cant be discounted because of preference for a different way.

Now separately, is Jesus being cautious as you say. He does say plainly especially in John. Jesus also when preaching spoke in parables then told the disiples after straightforward. He did this all throughout, sometimes plain, sometimes not. Tell me this, in the OT is God always plain, laying it out completely?

For the last part, about the garden and lack of crystal clear, lets not forget;

John 8:58. Jesus said, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am”

And even though Adam and Eve did know crystal clear what to do, they still didnt listen to God, they listened to other advice. So just because its clear doesnt mean its the end all and be all.

There are a lot of reasons that people as a whole (not necessarily you) figure to discount what Jesus said or did. And a whole lot of discussion about that. But few listen to what He actually said.

 

[Valke2]

A question that comes to my mind is this:
Why would god need to clearly tell his people he’s come for their redemption on the spot? Why do we presume that god would yell out “I’m God”? Yes he did so in the past, but there were also times in the OT when God was illusive and did not reveal his work or true good intentions until later.

.
There are times when God is hidden, yes. But He doesn’t hide and then place the outcome of your soul on whether you choose the correct path without knowing the choices. Why would God require a Jew to believe that Jesus was/is God, without first making it clear that Jesus was/is God?

Also what is “no uncertain terms”, to me Jesus Ressurection was “no uncertain terms”… What you are doing here is “Boxing god in” and going “God must do what I say, otherwise he isn’t God”.

Who is said to have observed his ressurection? Keep in mind very few Jews even heard of Jesus at the time. And even fewer were witness to the miracles that are said to have taken place. The last time God revealed himself to the Jews, it was to an entire nation, not a few apostles.

Jesus was probably cautious about saying “I’m god” because it would have brought phony believers to follow him. In other words “Yes men”. He wanted sincere believers, not just people who follow him because he said he was god, but people who believed from the messages and lessons(like the sermon on the mount) BEFORE he actually told them.

THe message and lessons he preached were by and large those found in Jewish scriptures. Why would we have to follow him for preaching the same? You are saying we should have worshipped him as God without knowing he was God?

 

[Valke2]

There are a lot of reasons that people as a whole (not necessarily you) figure to discount what Jesus said or did. And a whole lot of discussion about that. But few listen to what He actually said.

Ok. But there isn’t much he said that was not said before he came.

 

[ricmat]

The last time God revealed himself to the Jews, it was to an entire nation, not a few apostles.

So which worked better?

 

[mark_a]

I found an interesting article written by a rabbi about why Jews don’t regard Jesus as the Messiah. Here is the link:

Redirecting...

Some of the interesting points Rabbi Simmons makes is that in Judaism, belief is based solely on national revelation. Do Christians accept only national revelation as well? If not, how does one know what revelation to follow? Another interesting statement that the rabbi makes is that Judaism believes in the “Seven Laws of Noah” for non-Jews. Does anybody know what these are? How would a Christian respond to the rabbi’s article? Thanks in advance for any answers!

The clincher for me is the fact that the Apostles went out to tell the world about Jesus, while knowing they would be martyred.

That’s powerful conviction.

 

[colliric]

.
There are times when God is hidden, yes. But He doesn’t hide and then place the outcome of your soul on whether you choose the correct path without knowing the choices. Why would God require a Jew to believe that Jesus was/is God, without first making it clear that Jesus was/is God?

Who is said to have observed his ressurection? Keep in mind very few Jews even heard of Jesus at the time. And even fewer were witness to the miracles that are said to have taken place. The last time God revealed himself to the Jews, it was to an entire nation, not a few apostles.

THe message and lessons he preached were by and large those found in Jewish scriptures. Why would we have to follow him for preaching the same? You are saying we should have worshipped him as God without knowing he was God?

And is god “never allowed to change precedent if he revealed to the whole nation, he must reveal to the whole nation again”? because that’s “boxing God in” to your own expectations. He had reasons for doing what he did, and likely it was because he knew the Jewish people wern’t ready as a whole nation to accept their messiah(who wasn’t just going to be their messiah, but the messiah for the whole human race) and were going to oppose and hurt him for claiming to be the messiah, but then again that was the plan because that was going to be the act of salvation, the lamb’s blood to save them this time.

As I recall one of the reasons Jesus was crucified was because in the eyes of the Pharisees, he did openly claim he was the messiah(in that he said he was the King of the Jews and The Son of Man) and they therefore wanted him dead because they thought he really was dangerous. At least according to the only source we have on the issues at hand. To them at least it was clear that he claimed to be their Hero and to reign over the Jewish people.