Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?

[c659smith]

What I am asking in most of my posts are, do Jews believe the messiah is coming ?

If the answer is yes, than what prophetic signs would have to be fullfilled that were not in the old testament with Jesus’s arrival?

How do Jews today define the prophets?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

So Israel divided into two parts: Jews and Christians. We both believe we are the decendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses. The Jews would claim more of a physical descent, whereas Christians would restrict the claim to spritual via baptism as the brother of Jesus (a Jew)

Yes what is a jewish view of Christians claiming faith in God?

 

[ricmat]

If the answer is yes, than what prophetic signs would have to be fullfilled that were not in the old testament with Jesus’s arrival?

I’m not Jewish, but let me jump in here. I’ve asked a similar question on other threads, and the answer seems to be that “It will be obvious that the Messiah is REALLY the Messiah. Unlike Jesus, where most Jews didn’t think he was the Messiah.”

The counter argument that occurs to me is that the Jews seem to have a real talent for missing the obvious. As one example, perhaps a million Jews witness the 10 plagues, the Red Sea parting, etc etc etc, and it’s still NOT obvious to the Jews that God is I AM and not a golden calf.

 

[Kaninchen]

Yes what is a jewish view of Christians claiming faith in God?

The beliefs of other people are not our concern. We don’t believe that bad things will happen to you because you believe differently.

 

[Kaninchen]

The counter argument that occurs to me is that the Jews seem to have a real talent for missing the obvious. As one example, perhaps a million Jews witness the 10 plagues, the Red Sea parting, etc etc etc, and it’s still NOT obvious to the Jews that God is I AM and not a golden calf.

We’ll argue about anything and everything - that’s why it will have to be very, very apparent.

Meanwhile, for the past 2000 years, Christians have been sniffing through the entrails of ‘the news’ trying to relate it to ‘Revelations’ and the Second Coming and expecting it to happen ‘soon’ (repeatedly), so perhaps moaning about our skepticism needs to be balanced by a little humility about Christian credulity!

 

[Valke2]

the signs of the messianic age have been discussed in many other threads here by me and others. It’s probably already been answered in this thread. In short, the Messiah will:

1. gather all Jews to Israel.
2. Usher in an era of peace throughout the world.
3. Rebuild the Temple
4. all the world will worship the one God.
5. He the Jewish people will observe the mitzvot (something that, as Jews for Judaism points out Christianity discourages)

The other requirements have to do with his lineage, which I’m sure everyone here is aware of.

 

[Valke2]

But the question here is we do not read scripture differently. the old testament is the old testament. The prophets said what they said. I read what you read.

Are Jews still awaiting the Messiah or am I missing something?

What does the Torah and the old testament tell us when, the signs of who, and where He comes from?

What is to dispute in the Torah, old testament, and Prophets that is in dispute.

Why are the historical facts made with what if’s

“If we did not reject Jesus”.

Tell me what would make you a believer if Jesus fulfilled all the prophet’s prophecies and the circumstances of what had occurred after his crucification.

truth does not = what if’s

To deny the Messiah is to deny scripture.

Actually, to deny the Messiah is not to deny scripture. There is nothing in Judaism that penalizes one for recognizing the wrong Messiah or failing to see the true Messiah. As opposed to a Jew who does not believe that the Messiah will come.

Your “what if” comments seems to be based on a misunderstanding of what I posted earlier. I was not suggesting that the Jews did not reject Jesus. QUite the opposite.

Nothing Jesus did could ever make me believe that he was God. If he fullfilled every single requirement of Messiah, I would not believe He was God. As for reading scripture differently, I believe that we absolutely do.

Christians start with the assumption that Jesus was/is the Messiah and GOd and then look backward at the “OT” to find verse to support the assumption. Example: “We know Jesus was crucified. So therefore Isaiah 53 must be about Jesus. And therefore Jesus is the Messiah.” Jews read their scripture and then without that criteria and they arrive at very different understandings. Example: We know that Isaiah often refers to Israel as a person or servant and that Chapters 52 and 53 have been discussing Israel’s history. Therefore, we know that Isaiah is referring to Israel.

 

[Fisher]

[ibjm.org/](http://www.ibjm.org/)

Some do Messianic Jews.cjf.org/

 

[Fisher]

some more ibjm.org/

 

[Fisher]

We have converts in my church.

 

[Verisimilitude]

the signs of the messianic age …

Are you of the opinion that God always intended to govern the Earth at some point, or if that was the original intent if not for the fall of man?

Even with Christs second coming…I have never considered that as the epitome of Gods plan, but the end of our time.

TO think that God used Hitler, the Crusades etc. as a method of righteous punishment is a mindset that has no place in my worldview.

I agree, It does not fit mine either.

In short, I think the divine purpose Jews were chosen by God for has been completed. The honor of being chosen cannot be disputed, and should be respected by humanity for all time because for one it produced Mary, through whom Christ came to us.

When a global kind of view is attempted at the whole of Gods plan as it were; I see our part in creation as the epitome of Gods plan with our living our lives more or less unhindered by God. The blessing was to be fruitful and multiply, and be masters of the Earth with a warning to trust in God without question.

Once our First Parents exercised their free will in opposition to God the path to destruction was laid, since we lack the Wisdom of God to choose correctly more often than not. I see the Bible as the story of how God spoke with one voice to the world through one People so we might know how to choose wisely, and how that People were prepared for His arrival to do what we needed done- that we could not do ourselves.

I think the reason God is so subtle with us is becasue the original intent was for us to just live; without a dictator, be it Himslef or a man. It is ‘our fault’ that we lost that intimacy with God as in the Garden. He sent prophets and inspired Kings, but that wasn’t enough because ultimately the inequity of man still corrupted the soul of man, and seemingly, that corruption needs to be rectified in some fashion.

I do not know what the Final Judgement will be all about but I accept this above all others with respect to it:

Matthew 12: 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

In the long run, I suppose I think more will be forgiven than not. I don’t think anyone is condemned just for being a Moslem, a Pagen or a Atheist…, just as being a Catholic, Christian or Jew guarantees immediate passage to eternal life.

For me, to accept Jesus as God in the sense that only God could rectify that corruption of men, and that could be done only by how He did it. The idea of salvation and forgiveness of sins might be misunderstood. By being the final sacrifice (God provided a ram for Abraham in place of Isaac- he gave Himslef for us in the same, but obvioulsy in a larger way), Jesus frees us from the burden of sin though we still commit it. It’s complicated, but like most things about God and His ways they often defy our ability to fully comprehend its meaning.

Finally, I think Jews don’t believe in Jesus for the same reasons many others don’t. Beyond man just being stubborn God is difficult to understand, and even those who profess a belief in God or Jesus might not fully understand as well. I think that’s clear by some posters on this thread now apparently banned. Obviously I think the Catholic Church has the best understanding of God today, but I can’t say for sure it is full truth while still being the truth in full as we can understand God. I believe in Her veracity and promise.

I don’t pretend to know every nuance of the Church teachings, and likely run afoul of it occasionally/often with my thoughts, but I do not think they are in conflcit with dogma. The recent statements on Limbo, the unbaptised…the things the Councils have produced when they meet; the Truth does not change, but our concept of it might.
:twocents:

 

[Zahava]

This is absolutely correct. The Jews once held a special place in God’s heart but they are now an accursed people and will remain so until the end of time and no amount of wishy-washy watered down “feel good” theology will alter that fact. This is the awful truth. They invoked a dreadful curse upon their own heads in saying: “His blood be on us and our children”. Jews still inherit the blood-guilt of their fathers. They cannot undo that any more than we can undo the deed of Adam. We are all doomed to Hell. It is only through the love of God, His Grace we are spared that fate. The same applies to Jews. It is the only solution.

Excuse me Trad, but you are so completely wrong! Let us see what G-d says about His Chosen

Yeshayahu/Isaiah 49
14. And Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me, and the Lord has forgotten me.”
15. Shall a woman forget her sucking child, from having mercy on the child of her womb? These too shall forget, but I will not forget you

Also, if you read Hosea chapter 2 - you will find that G-d compares Israel to an adulterous woman. YOU FIND THAT HE EMBRACES HER WHEN SHE RETURNS TO HIM

Read Song of Solomon - This is G-ds love to His Chosen

And there are so many more passages that I can not copy right now but I will be back with them.

I truly am amazed and shocked that you would such a thing.

 

[Zahava]

They say that the Messiah is to come from a particular house, but all such records were destroyed when Jerusalem fell to the Romans c.70AD meaning that no one would be able to check this one out. (Note that this happened after Jesus who has such lineage)

Please provide your sources that states records have been destroyed.

 

[Zahava]

To our Jewish friends, to whom does the presonal pronoun “He” refer to in these verses?

Isa 53:5-6
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
NASU

The Bible tells you exactly who this He is DLC, it is His Servant Israel.

zahavapasternak.blogspot.com/2007/08/part-1-isaiah-52-531-12.html

 

[Lev23]

The Bible tells you exactly who this He is DLC, it is His Servant Israel.

zahavapasternak.blogspot.com/2007/08/part-1-isaiah-52-531-12.html

Zechariah 12:10-14
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

Zechariah 13:1-6
"On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
“On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the LORD Almighty. "I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. And if anyone still prophesies, his father and mother, to whom he was born, will say to him, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD’s name.’ When he prophesies, his own parents will stab him.

"On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision. He will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive He will say, 'I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth. If someone asks him, ‘What are these wounds on your body ?’ he will answer, 'The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.'

 

[Zahava]

Zechariah 12:10-14
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, and all the rest of the clans and their wives.]

Lev, please read the context of this passage you gave. To understand - within context. One must start at

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. [2] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. (KJV)

The above two verses set up the background. At some future date, the nations of the world will be gathered against the Jewish people, and will besiege the Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. [4] In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. [5] And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. [6] In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. (KJV)

This siege is part of a tremendous war, the war of Gog and Magog. The Jews shall fight back against the enemy nations, and they shall be victorious. I have a video on my blog about the Final War - it is worthwhile to view it.

I don’t know which translation you have - but it is not correct.

י וְשָׁפַכְתִּי עַל-בֵּית דָּוִיד וְעַל יוֹשֵׁב יְרוּשָׁלִַם, רוּחַ חֵן וְתַחֲנוּנִים, וְהִבִּיטוּ אֵלַי, אֵת אֲשֶׁר-דָּקָרוּ; וְסָפְדוּ עָלָיו, כְּמִסְפֵּד עַל-הַיָּחִיד, וְהָמֵר עָלָיו, כְּהָמֵר עַל-הַבְּכוֹר. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

The concluding verses speak of someone who is pierced and dies. His death will so shock the nation that the people will be moved to repentance and mourning, an intense mourning of this person who is killed that it would be as if they were mourning for a firstborn son. Verse 11 paints a rather dramatic picture of how widespread the mourning will be by comparing this mourning to the mourning the people did over the death of King Josiah, who was killed in battle against the Egyptians, as told in 2 Kings 23:29-30. 2 Chronicles 35:22-25 tells that all of Judah mourning for him.

Does j*sus fit this picture? Three points prevent this:

1. This scenario of war against the nations of the world didn’t take place in j*sus’ time.
2. The Jews (meaning the whole people) didn’t mourn over j*esus’ death according to the New Testament account.
3. This proof, like nearly all of Christianity’s proofs, requires one to assume the conclusion, that jsus is the Messiah and that he’s special enough that the prophets would have written about him. If you approach the verse without believing in jsus, there’s really no reason to think that the verse refers to him.

 

[Lev23]

The above two verses set up the background. At some future date, the nations of the world will be gathered against the Jewish people, and will besiege the Jerusalem.
This siege is part of a tremendous war, the war of Gog and Magog. The Jews shall fight back against the enemy nations, and they shall be victorious.

You are correct, and this is what St.Paul was referring to in Romans 11. There is a remnant of Israel saved now by Grace, and this prophetic event of Yeshua coming back to Israel in Zech 12 and 13 is what he was referring to when he said “all Israel will be saved,…” in Romans 11:25-32.

I don’t know which translation you have - but it is not correct.

Check this out.

 

[Zahava]

You are correct, and this is what St.Paul was referring to in Romans 11. There is a remnant of Israel saved now by Grace, and this prophetic event of Yeshua coming back to Israel in Zech 12 and 13 is what he was referring to when he said “all Israel will be saved,…” in Romans 11:25-32.

Check this out.

I did check this site, Lev… rubbish…they are messianic. Also, they claim they used a JPS translation. They did not.

mechon-mamre.org/index.htm
Uses JPS

To interpret this passage that at some future time the “Jewish people shall look unto Me (G-d/Jesus) whom they (the Jewish people) pierced” does not seem to be what John had in mind. It is important to note that according to John, Zechariah’s prophesy was fulfilled at the time that the Roman soldiers pierced the side of Jesus. As it says in John 19:36, “For these things came to pass that the scripture might be fulfilled.” John saw the two different subjects of Zechariah’s passage as the Roman soldiers and Jesus.

"They (the Roman soldiers) shall look on Him (Jesus) whom they (the Roman soldiers) pierced.

There is an additional problem in this passage. The Hebrew words “et asher” are not found very often in scripture. When they do occur together the phrase is read as “concerning whom” or “concerning that” but never as “whom”. You can see this by reading the Hebrew original of Ezekiel 36:27. (It is also interesting to note that the Septuagint does not translate “et asher” as “whom.” Its translation does not at all resemble the Christian interpretation.)

The correct translation of Zechariah 12:10 should be.

“they will look onto Me concerning whom they have pierced and they will mourn for him”

This is consistent with the two subjects. By reviewing the context we can also understand of whom this passage is speaking. Starting with the beginning of Zechariah chapter 12 the prophet speaks of a time when the nations of the world will be gathered against Jerusalem to destroy it (Zec 12:3). On that day, G-d Himself will defend Jerusalem and destroy all of its enemies (Zec 12:4-9). G-d will pour out a spirit of grace and supplication toward the Jews. Grace is requested from G-d and supplication are directed to G-d.

This new spirit will motivate the Jewish nation to look towards G-d concerning those Jews (collective Jewish Martyrs) (see Hosea 11:1 for the Jewish people described as him. See Ex.1 etc. verbs of oppression in singular. Cf. Deut 32, Hos 8:3 and Ex. 19:2) who have been killed in battle prior to G-d’s divine intervention in fighting our adversaries.

All the inhabitants of Jerusalem will mourn. This has obviously not yet been fulfilled, now or when the Roman soldier looked at Jesus.

This understanding is validated by the scriptural description that this mourning in Jerusalem would be “like the mourning of Hadadrimmom in the Valley of Magiddo.” This refers to the death of King Josiah who was killed in battle with Pharaoh Neco (2 Kings 23:29-30). After his death all of Judah and Jerusalem mourned for him (2 Chron 35:22-25). In the same way that the Jews mourned over King Josiah who died in battle so too will the Jewish people in the future mourn over their war dead.

jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/zechariah-1210.html