Why don't Jews still practice animal sacrifices?

[Bible_Reader]

“Bible Reader”, Would you have any problem with my husband speaking to Rabbi Steinsaltz, to ascertain if in fact you do know him?

I am sorry if I offended you with my mention of names. I had thought, that since in Judaism it is mandatory to mention the origin of a teaching, that I was being polite by your value system. Please forgive me.

R’ Steinsaltz lives in Israel and travels frequently to the Former Soviet Union (where his center runs substantial activities) and Crown Heights and other places in the US.

It is absolutely fine with me if you check out my credentials. R’ Steinsaltz certainly remembers me. Send me a PM and I’ll give you all the details.

But even if you don’t want to do this, the points I mention are also written down in black and white in his book, so you do not need to wait for the opportunity to travel to verify them. I am sure the book is in your shul, so you can check on *Shabbat *or Shavuot, if you wish.

The key point is that Judaism, like Catholicism are total systems. It is true that there is much opportunity for new insights or elaboration. But one cannot just make it up as one goes along.

 

[dessert]

My husband was the person who primarily saw it; I was looking around the church, when he called my attention to it. It did not traumatize or shock me, because I grew up around many Catholics and frankly, had seen women do that kind of thing before.

But my husband is originally from a very Protestant background and had very little experience with or exposure to Catholics, which is probably why it shocked him so much.

What else did you do in that Church? Did you pray? Was anyone praying the rosary? Do you remember what the Rosary is? What other kinds of things did you see women doing when you grew up?

 

[HashemEchad]

What else did you do in that Church? Did you pray? Was anyone praying the rosary? Do you remember what the Rosary is? What other kinds of things did you see women doing when you grew up?

We were in the church because it is a national shrine in Canada, and we were on a tour of Quebec. That basilica is on the tour.

When I was growing up I used to see elderly Catholic women do many things, such as cross themselves when they passed a church while we were on a bus; cross themselves when an ambulance went by, and the like. I grew up in a heavily Catholic and Jewish area.

 

[dessert]

We were in the church because it is a national shrine in Canada, and we were on a tour of Quebec. That basilica is on the tour.

When I was growing up I used to see elderly Catholic women do many things, such as cross themselves when they passed a church while we were on a bus; cross themselves when an ambulance went by, and the like. I grew up in a heavily Catholic and Jewish area.

Hmmm! Thanks just wondering as you seem to notice a lot and remember much or your memory has been kind of awakened lately, sorry I’m off to quiet down and retire for the night. Goodnight

 

[HashemEchad]

Hmmm! Thanks just wondering as you seem to notice a lot and remember much or your memory has been kind of awakened lately, sorry I’m off to quiet down and retire for the night. Goodnight

We took a lot of pictures on that trip, I’m going to dig them out and see if I have any of the precise area where the women did what they did (though I don’t recall taking any pics inside the church itself).

BTW its a very beautiful shrine, if you ever get a chance to go there. They have a lifesize stations of the cross outside, with a French cross (I think its called the cross of Lorraine) at each one.

 

[Eden]

We were in the church because it is a national shrine in Canada, and we were on a tour of Quebec. That basilica is on the tour.

When I was growing up I used to see elderly Catholic women do many things, such as cross themselves when they passed a church while we were on a bus; cross themselves when an ambulance went by, and the like. I grew up in a heavily Catholic and Jewish area.

They weren’t just “crossing themselves”, they were praying. The nuns at my school used to stop class if we heard an ambulance going by outside and have us all say a prayer for whomever the emergency was.

 

[Bible_Reader]

I am impressed that you entered a church, HashemEchad. Were you religious at that time? Or are you a ba’al teshuva (convert from Reform Judaism to Orthodox Judaism)?

As you know, it is forbidden for Orthodox Jews to visit churches. (See Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 139 - 149; especially 149(1). See in particular the commentary of Rabbi Shabatai haKohen Katz [the *Shach] drawing in turn on Maimonides’s commentary to the Mishnah.) Even if you claimed that Catholicism were not avoda zara [idolatry] there is a serious issue of marit ayin, e.g., giving the impression that you are not observant.

The truth is that there are many things which to the uninformed outsider look like idolatry. Some Christians may think that the way that Jews attach a text mezzuzah] to their doorposts, and then touch and kiss it every time they go in and out is idolatry. Some Christians may think that the way that Jews kiss Torah scrolls, *seforim *[holy books], *tzitzit *(hanging threads from a prayer shawl), etc. is idolatry. Some Christians may think that the way that men put on *teffilin *(large amulets worn on the forehead and forearm) during weekday morning prayer is idolatry.

I do not think that is idolatry. However just as you and your husband misunderstood Catholic worship, many Christians think that this is idolatry. I think we need more understanding.

I am fortunate that I had a chance to study for several years at a Jewish school in Lakewood, New Jersey (it is called Beth Medrash Govoha) before Christ reached out and touched me, and I was received into the true Church. This helps me understand Jews better. But I am shocked by the ignorance that many Jews have towards the Catholic Church. I hope that you can learn to apprciate its deep and abiding holiness.

 

[Eden]

Forgive me if I am wrong in this, but your posts come across to me as name-dropping, and as if you are trying to impress me (and/or perhaps others) with your knowledge. I just get these odd vibes every time I read your posts.

And mentioning the Cardinal in New York wasn’t name-dropping?

 

[vocatio]

I just want to say that I knew where this was going the last time I posted on this thread. …and I was right so far. But I will read the posts later for the meat of it all. Whenever you put 2 or more people commited to what they believe together and they hear someone else say something that does not coincide with what they were taught growing up…heads are sure to bang. Must be wisdom in my older age, you think? I wonder what I’ll be like in 20 more years? cool? A permanent deacon I hope.

 

[inJESUS]

An “appearance of evil” is marit ayin, which means “as something appears to the eye”. Its a Jewish principle that we should never do something that might give unbelievers the wrong idea. What those ladies did, without realizing it, was to give my husband (an “unbeliever” in Catholicism) the idea that they were worshipping an idol. I’m sure their intentions were innocent, but not everyone would see it that way.

and we are supposed to be thinking about what anyone might be thinking each second of our life in thar corner, that building, that street and that church…nop it does not work. There are idiots, evil, and ignorant people on the streets…it is not my duty to satisfy their thoughts. I might see Jews and Muslims doing something that seems idolatory to me…it does not necessarily mean it is idolatory, it means am either ignorant or self-righteous or simply evil in thought.

That is a Jewish principle worked into Christianity!

 

[Bible_Reader]

Paul was a Jew after all. Yet neither Paul nor Jesus were legalistic preachers…Paul says if you want to eat, eat for God and if you do not want to eat, do not eat for God as well…God is what matters, not what self-righteous people want from you…you do not do things that might stumble others in their faith on purpose …but it does not mean you put alarm antena to catch who is being righteous and who is not…this is exacly the opposite of what Jesus was teaching by attacking the self-righteousness of those who bragged of following the law they were nothing but self-righteous hypocrites cleaning the APPEARANCE yet the essence is dirty.

This is very true. This is a key teaching of Jesus – Matthew 7:3. I must say this is one of the reasons I am very happy to be a Catholic.

 

[Pug]

and we are supposed to be thinking about what anyone might be thinking each second of our life in thar corner, that building, that street and that church…nop it does not work.

I have modified my otherwise rightful behavior for an individual person about whom I have knowledge that it would likely scandalize. I agree we can’t fix everything for every random person. What scandalizes one will help another, often, and rarely do you know your audience all that well. But we can refrain from some freedom for a known person or certain group of people.

 

[dessert]

We were in the church because it is a national shrine in Canada, and we were on a tour of Quebec. That basilica is on the tour.

When I was growing up I used to see elderly Catholic women do many things, such as cross themselves when they passed a church while we were on a bus; cross themselves when an ambulance went by, and the like. I grew up in a heavily Catholic and Jewish area.

I hope I can tour it someday. We are not that far from Canada so maybe
I have recently been to a basilica, a soon to be dedicated shrine and a national shrine, and was fortunate to attend a Mass at all included which meant a lot to me. Many have outside stations.
One I went to even has an outside and inside labyrinth. I liked that one so much I went again with mixed religion group. But this time no rosary or Mass Wonderful Chapel though so stayed to pray.
Your basilica you visited probably didn’t have a tabernacle, that was prominantly sitting out to see.
Do you know what a tabernacle is? The elderly ladies were crossing themselves when going by a Church, not sure what you mean by the like, because in a Catholic church there is a tabernacle and is the holy of holies with the consecrated hosts and is the sacred dwelling place of the Eucharist of our Lord Jesus Christ. We were taught to do this but you don’t see it done much anymore. It was not a voodoo thing it was just a special blessing and respect for the Lord. And what they maybe spoke was in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit while making the sign of the cross.
Did you ever meet any priests? Or talk to any?

 

[AnthonyXM]

The problem is that as Christians we are required to tell others the Word.
Problem often is that there are some halfwits who give the Word as insultingly as possible, and think they are serving the Lord when they drive people away.

The Jew is required to live by the law; if one was found carrying a bucket of water on the Sabbath or chopping wood, Moses would put them to death.
That is their way according to their covenant - not ours.
If they manage to live according to their law, then they are perfect.

We are not required to be perfect, only to repent of our sin and do it no more - we get second chances.

If a Jew has been perfect before the Lord what can I say to them?

If on the other hand they haven’t been perfect - and know it - then they better go see our intercessor unless they want to be judged among the heathen. (I wouldn’t advise that).

To me that seems a righteous way to approach the Jews - any thing else is hubris.

God bless you.

 

[HashemEchad]

I am impressed that you entered a church, HashemEchad. Were you religious at that time? Or are you a ba’al teshuva (convert from Reform Judaism to Orthodox Judaism)?

As you know, it is forbidden for Orthodox Jews to visit churches. (See Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 139 - 149; especially 149(1). See in particular the commentary of Rabbi Shabatai haKohen Katz [the *Shach

] drawing in turn on Maimonides’s commentary to the Mishnah.) Even if you claimed that Catholicism were not avoda zara [idolatry] there is a serious issue of marit ayin, e.g., giving the impression that you are not observant.

The truth is that there are many things which to the uninformed outsider look like idolatry. Some Christians may think that the way that Jews attach a text mezzuzah] to their doorposts, and then touch and kiss it every time they go in and out is idolatry. Some Christians may think that the way that Jews kiss Torah scrolls, *seforim *[holy books], *tzitzit *(hanging threads from a prayer shawl), etc. is idolatry. Some Christians may think that the way that men put on *teffilin *(large amulets worn on the forehead and forearm) during weekday morning prayer is idolatry.

I do not think that is idolatry. However just as you and your husband misunderstood Catholic worship, many Christians think that this is idolatry. I think we need more understanding.

I am fortunate that I had a chance to study for several years at a Jewish school in Lakewood, New Jersey (it is called Beth Medrash Govoha) before Christ reached out and touched me, and I was received into the true Church. This helps me understand Jews better. But I am shocked by the ignorance that many Jews have towards the Catholic Church. I hope that you can learn to apprciate its deep and abiding holiness.

No, I was not religious at the time we went into that church.

BTW Jews are only forbidden to enter the part of a church where worship is performed. We are allowed to enter church halls and places like that, if no worship is done there. When I lived in NJ, we had to vote in the hall of a local Protestant church, and many Orthodox Jews were often seen in there, voting.

Incidentally a ba’al teshuvah is not only someone who goes from Reform to Orthodox Judaism. It refers to ANY Jew who was not religious, who has adopted Torah Judaism.

The original correct meaning of the term was for a person who grew up Orthodox (FFB, frum from birth), rejected it for a time, and then chose to return to it. When the tidal wave of Jewish returnees began in the 70s, it was expanded to mean any Jew who decided to become religious after not being raised so. I actually fall into the original category of definition.

You know, you seem to be trying to impress me (and maybe others) with how much you think you know. I’m not impressed, because for one thing, my husband’s rabbi had occasion to actually speak to Rabbi Steinsaltz after you said you knew him.

As for Catholicism, I’m sure it is seen as holy to Catholics, and they are entitled of course, to see it that way. I feel there is some truth to be found in ALL religions, but that does not make that religion entirely true.

 

[Bible_Reader]

\You know, you seem to be trying to impress me (and maybe others) with how much you think you know. I’m not impressed, because for one thing, my husband’s rabbi had occasion to actually speak to Rabbi Steinsaltz after you said you knew him.

That’s great. Too bad you didn’t follow up on my offer for me to you all my details so he could meaningfully identify me:

It is absolutely fine with me if you check out my credentials. R’ Steinsaltz certainly remembers me. Send me a PM and I’ll give you all the details.

Just so everyone on this forum will know – even though I offered to give you my name – you didn’t even bother to ask. I received no PM from you.

You just were soooo eager to smear me.

That reminds me a lot of some of the people I grew up with – I know many God-fearing Jews, but some are more interested in finding fault with others instead of purifying their own behavior.

Jews call the the attacks you make lashon hara. The Chofetz Chaim (one of the greatest rabbis of the last 200 years) identifies *lashon hara *as being one of the worst sins of the Jewish people.

How silly of me to assume that you might actually be interested in discussing issues instead of making groundless accusations against me and anyone else who disagrees with you.

The truth, Hashem Echad, is that you don’t know your stuff very well. I think you might learn something from these words from my favorite rabbi:

How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,’ when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye.

Meanwhile, I’m not going to play your games anymore. I do want to warn my fellow Catholics that you are not giving out very accurate information about your religion (you notice that in my posts I give citations to sources – you simply make claims without citation.)

 

[HashemEchad]

And mentioning the Cardinal in New York wasn’t name-dropping?

I only mentioned him when it was relevant to the discussion.

 

[HashemEchad]

I hope I can tour it someday. We are not that far from Canada so maybe
I have recently been to a basilica, a soon to be dedicated shrine and a national shrine, and was fortunate to attend a Mass at all included which meant a lot to me. Many have outside stations.
One I went to even has an outside and inside labyrinth. I liked that one so much I went again with mixed religion group. But this time no rosary or Mass Wonderful Chapel though so stayed to pray.
Your basilica you visited probably didn’t have a tabernacle, that was prominantly sitting out to see.
Do you know what a tabernacle is? The elderly ladies were crossing themselves when going by a Church, not sure what you mean by the like, because in a Catholic church there is a tabernacle and is the holy of holies with the consecrated hosts and is the sacred dwelling place of the Eucharist of our Lord Jesus Christ. We were taught to do this but you don’t see it done much anymore. It was not a voodoo thing it was just a special blessing and respect for the Lord. And what they maybe spoke was in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit while making the sign of the cross.
Did you ever meet any priests? Or talk to any?

Half my family is Catholic, and a great aunt of mine was a nun, so yes I am very familiar with the religion. I have also studied it (as well as other religions) because familiarizing myself with other religions is a part of what I do.

As for priests, I know quite a few, and I was even friends with a cardinal. Why do you assume I know nothing about your religion? I think I know more about Catholicism and other religions than many Catholics seem to know about religions outside of their own.

 

[Eden]

I only mentioned him when it was relevant to the discussion.

The same is true of the person you accused of name-dropping, as they explained that they were respecting your religious beliefs by naming the source of their information.

 

[HashemEchad]

That’s great. Too bad you didn’t follow up on my offer for me to you all my details so he could meaningfully identify me:

Just so everyone on this forum will know – even though I offered to give you my name – you didn’t even bother to ask. I received no PM from you.

You just were soooo eager to smear me.

That reminds me a lot of some of the people I grew up with – I know many God-fearing Jews, but some are more interested in finding fault with others instead of purifying their own behavior.

Jews call the the attacks you make lashon hara. The Chofetz Chaim (one of the greatest rabbis of the last 200 years) identifies *lashon hara *as being one of the worst sins of the Jewish people.

How silly of me to assume that you might actually be interested in discussing issues instead of making groundless accusations against me and anyone else who disagrees with you.

The truth, Hashem Echad, is that you don’t know your stuff very well. I think you might learn something from these words from my favorite rabbi:

Meanwhile, I’m not going to play your games anymore. I do want to warn my fellow Catholics that you are not giving out very accurate information about your religion (you notice that in my posts I give citations to sources – you simply make claims without citation.)

I did not PM you because I had to get offline shortly after that, and never had the chance. If you notice, I was not online here for several days at least. Besides, I figured how many Hebrew-speaking Catholics could Rabbi Steinsaltz know? I was sure he’d have no trouble remembering you.

You seem incredibly angry all of a sudden, and I don’t see why. All I said was that someone I know did consult Rabbi Steinsaltz (I did not say what his response was, did I?)…and I said your posts have given me weird vibes due to your obvious efforts to ‘show off’ what you think is deep knowledge of Judaism.

I’m not the only person here who has felt this way…a few I am acquainted with on this forum PMed me, expressing the same gut feeling (I found them in my PM box when I logged on today after not being online for a few days.)

And now you are going to lie and say I am not giving out accurate info about my OWN religion, even though I follow it and you do not?

It really seems to me that you feel you have something to be afraid of.

Why? Ever since I said our rabbi spoke to Rabbi Steinsaltz you have acted like this.