Valke,
LOL.
As my Grandmother once said, a Jewish Christian is one Jew worshipping another Jew
Jews believe the evil inclination has it uses. That it can be used to drive one to create, be successful in business, etc. It is what we do with it that is important. The inclination itself does not, I think, make us imperfect.
. Ok, but Jews don’t believe (generally) that the Messiah will transform us from the inside out. That’s our job. This is why I originally posted that the Messiah in Judaism is very different than the Messiah in Christianity.
And as I’ve pointed out before, the Mishna was very much a part of 1st century Judaism. That it wasn’t written down at the time doesn’t mean it was not an integral part of our religion. If you look at the laws Jesus “changed”, they are almost all exclusively those that would have been set forth in the Mishna. While the key “rabbinic” documents may be post Christian, the key rabbinc teachings were not. Your allegation that the Mishnaic core is dated 100 CE is pure specualtion and goes against all Jewish tradition.
But the reality is that majority of “Messianic Jews” believe Jesus was/is God and they are largely not jewish to begin with. And even if were born Jewish, they adopt a belief system that is not compatiable with Judaism.
well, there’s only 15 million of us, give or take. And Judaism is a communal religion. So abandoning Judiasm is seen as harmful to the community. Especially if done so in a public way which may lead other jews to stray.
Thanks. I’ll take a look at it. I’ve had a lot of debates over Isaiah 53, as it is a favorite of evangelicals on the warpath. I can probably write out the debate between the two and come pretty close to what they said
. I’ll say this much for Isaiah 53. I’ve seen a lot of people arguing over it. But I’ve never seen one person convince the other that they were right .Since there were no Christians when Jesus walked the earth, the only understanding of Messiah would have been Jewish. So how did the ones who followed get it wrong?
I don’t think it is a question of getting it wrong. I think it is just that the term means two very different things to the two religions. In the Jewish religion, there was no prophecies (from our perspective) that dealt with the Messiah being Divine. Christians, after experiencing or learning about Jesus, looked at the scriptures from their Christian perspective and found different meanings in the scripture in order to support their new theology. That’s my opinion.
Someone like John the Baptist, whose experience of Jesus was very limited, recognized Him as the Messiah immediately. The very first apostles who followed Him before His public mission had really begun were compelled to follow because they suspected He was the one whose coming had been foretold. What do you think these suspicions were based upon if there is nothing in the OT to suggest Jesus could have been the one?
I don’t know a lot about John the Baptist. Does John ever say that Jesus is the Divine, or does he just say he was the Messiah. It certainly would have been easier, from a Jewish point of view, to believe Jesus was the messiah while he was still alive, and could potentially fullfill the conditions of Messiah, than after the crucifixtion. Many Jews followed many false/failed messiahs, especially during times when jews were receiving the short end of the stick. I’m also not disputing that his apostles believed he was a Divine being. But a few individuals believing one thing is not evidence that Jews held a belief that the Messiah would be a Divine being. It’s true that such a belief became more common among Jews a few hundred years later, especially those living in the disapora. But that’s a result of Christian influence, not Jewish teaching.
Couldnt jewish teaching on what the Messiah is be wrong?
. I’ve seen a lot of people arguing over it. But I’ve never seen one person convince the other that they were right
Sounds like pretty much any topic doesn’t it? Do you think we’ll ever see the day when two theologians (or any two people debating for that matter) ever reach a point in thier debate where one says to the other, “you are correct, I agree, let’s go home now”.I don’t know. Couldn’t christian understanding of Jesus be incorrect?
.Nah…I don’t know. Couldn’t christian understanding of Jesus be incorrect?
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our understanding is correctI don’t know. But if its the Jewish theologian who concedes, he or she will probalby say “…you’re correct, I agree, let’s eat.”
Interesting…