Why dont Jews....

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Karin said:
but if in questioning you can be shown the error would that not be a good thing?
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Let’s put it this way. Can you think of any argument that I could make which would cause you to question your faith in Jesus?
 
Contarini said:
Valke,

Again, I’m not questioning the existence of the Oral Law at the time of Jesus. I’m questioning the use of documents written down later as proof that Jesus was violating this or that universally accepted attitude. I’m suggesting (as most scholars I know, whether Jewish, Christian, or secular, believe) that Second Temple Judaism had a wide range of beliefs and practices, which were narrowed down after the fall of the Temple. I’m questioning the validity of any statement that takes the form "Jews in Jesus’ day would never have believed . . . . " Those ideas and practices that were eventually accepted as Orthodox Judaism were already present, certainly. But they weren’t necessarily as universally accepted or as clearly codified as they became later (and the example of the Karaites–the Samaritans too for that matter but they were obviously already a separate group in Jesus’ day–shows that they never did become accepted by all who called themselves Jews).

Edwin
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OK. But you only have to look to your own text to see that the Jews thought Jesus was violating such laws. Isn’t there an argument when he gathers food on Shabbos? There’s no prohibition in Torah (directly) against doing that. That would be a violation of the oral law. Same with healing the sick on Shabbat (assuming it wasn’t a life threatening ailment). Same with the eating fo food that wasn’t slaughtered under the laws of Kashurt, which are not found in the Torah. These are oral laws (at the time). These are the laws that Jesus did not feel compelled to honor.
 
Valke2 said:
Good. So why would you assume there is any arugment you could make that would cause me to question my faith in Hashem?
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Oh valke2-
no one is asking **you **to question your faith in God…sorry if you got that impression from my question;)
 
mercygate said:
There is a good book dedicated entirely to this subject: Salvation Is from the Jews by Roy Schoeman.
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That’s a great book. I highly suggest it to anyone interested in reading more on this topic.

By the way, what is the Jewish take on the sudden ending of the annual miracle of the red cloth hung from the temple turning white after the sacrifice of the goat? The miracle ceased shortly after Christ was raised from the dead. Is this viewed as a simple coincidence by Jews? Doesn’t even the Talmud document this event–along with reports of strange miracles done by early Christians? Since there is documentation of miracles by Christ and his followers, are there examples of miracles with regards to the prayers of modern day Jews? I’d be very interested in your take on this, since miracles convey an important facet of the character of God.
 
Valke2 said:
Good. So why would you assume there is any arugment you could make that would cause me to question my faith in Hashem?
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I kind of understand where your comment comes from here, but Christians see faith in Hashem as inseparable from faith in Jesus as the Messiah. We would kind of squint and scratch our heads at the idea that belief in the Christ would be equated with denial of faith in Hashem. To us they are One.

But you already knew that.
 
mercygate said:
I kind of understand where your comment comes from here, but Christians see faith in Hashem as inseparable from faith in Jesus as the Messiah. We would kind of squint and scratch our heads at the idea that belief in the Christ would be equated with denial of faith in Hashem. To us they are One.

But you already knew that.
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I could rephrase it to “should I try to convince you to worship as a Jew? If not then you shouldn’t try to convince a jew to worship as a Christian.”
 
Valke2 said:
I could rephrase it to “should I try to convince you to worship as a Jew? If not then you shouldn’t try to convince a jew to worship as a Christian.”
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Hmmm. I know a lot of Christians (I among them) who have come to a much deeper appreciation of our faith by better understanding Judaism. I don’t see it as a duel. As a Christian, Judaism is my spiritual grandmother. If Judaism had not survived into our time, I wouldn’t have half a clue about much of the matrix that gave life to my faith. The Rabbi where I work (Orthodox) is my “go-to” guy for all kinds of background.
 
Writer said:
That’s a great book. I highly suggest it to anyone interested in reading more on this topic.

By the way, what is the Jewish take on the sudden ending of the annual miracle of the red cloth hung from the temple turning white after the sacrifice of the goat? The miracle ceased shortly after Christ was raised from the dead. Is this viewed as a simple coincidence by Jews? Doesn’t even the Talmud document this event–along with reports of strange miracles done by early Christians? Since there is documentation of miracles by Christ and his followers, are there examples of miracles with regards to the prayers of modern day Jews? I’d be very interested in your take on this, since miracles convey an important facet of the character of God.
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Any thoughts or observations on this, Valke2?
 
Writer said:
That’s a great book. I highly suggest it to anyone interested in reading more on this topic.

By the way, what is the Jewish take on the sudden ending of the annual miracle of the red cloth hung from the temple turning white after the sacrifice of the goat? The miracle ceased shortly after Christ was raised from the dead. Is this viewed as a simple coincidence by Jews? Doesn’t even the Talmud document this event–along with reports of strange miracles done by early Christians? Since there is documentation of miracles by Christ and his followers, are there examples of miracles with regards to the prayers of modern day Jews? I’d be very interested in your take on this, since miracles convey an important facet of the character of God.
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Ok. First, does anyone really have their faith hinge on things like red cloths, loaves & fishes, parting of the seas, etc? to steal the screenname from antoher chatter, it is the still, small voice that calls to the part of us that yearns to dwell in the ineffable. Not the fireworks of miracles.

The Talmud documents all kinds of things. There were Rabbis who cast out demons, were resurrecte from the dead. Manna was provided for every day for 40 years. Now that’s a lengthy miracle.

But, on to the more specific answer. Once again, I find myself trying to explain why the Talmud, a copendium of jewish laws, conversations, and traditions, does not and cannot be used to prove that Jesus was the messiah.

What I find ironic about these debates is that five minutes later, someone will tell me that the Talmud is only the work of men and not inspired or the word of God. I wish you’d make up your minds! 🙂

Now to the details: (Next post)
 
(cont.)

The Talmud quotes a Baraisa (souce outside of Talmud) that talks about amazing things that occurred in the Temple during the Yom Kippur service. Including, the fact that there was a strip of scarlet-dyed wool tied to the head of the scapegoat which would turn white in the presence of everyone at the Temple on Yom Kippur. It was viewed as a sign from God that our sins were forgiven. This stopped 40 years before the destruction of the second Temple. Missionaries contend at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion. They do a bit of fuzzy math and then draw the conclusion that it meant God was not accepting animal sacrifices and that Jews needed to turn to Jesus as the only game in town for atonement – The ribbon didn’t turn white because our sins weren’t forgiven, and our sins weren’t forgiven because we didn’t accept Jesus.

One problem with this conculsion is that it is wholly made up. To say that it didn’t turn white because the jews rejected Jesus has just as much validity as saying there was a drought because the jews rejected jesus. There’s no scriptual support for it. It’s just an assumption made by some christians, unsupported by text or tradition.

I could turn this around and say, as others who have aruged this point have, that the reason the red strip didn’t turn white was because of all the jews that followed the false messiah Jesus. That our sin was not forgiven because many of us embraced Christanity. At least this would be more in line with the beliefs expressed in Talmud, which is concerned with preserving Jewish identity.

(cont.)
 
(cont.).

Besides which, Christian’s own scripture (prophets) clearly states that animal sacrifices will come back. So it’s hard to argue that Jesus was the final atonement (if sacrifices are still going to be instituted in the future) as the reason the ribbon didn’t turn.

Now its time for a little Talmudic context. I haven’t studied this tractate with my rabbi so I’m just going on what I’ve read elsewhere. The Talmud preceeds this discussion with a discussion on the declining spiritual condition of the Jews. The miracles in the Temple are seen as a kind of indicator regarding the spiritual health of the people. It discusses three phases of time, the earliest being the time when we were most deserving.
then continues to relate how the appearance of these miracles progressively diminished in the years that followed his death.

The miracles diminish over the years.
  1. The lot inscribed “LaHashem,” would always appear in the right hand of the high priest during the Yom Kippur service.
  2. The strip of scarlet-dyed wool which was tied to the head of the scapegoat always turned white during the Yom Kippur service.
  3. The western-most lamp of the Temple menorah remained lit until the priest would use its fire to kindle the next day’s lamps.
  4. The pyre on the altar did not require any additional wood to sustain a strong fire.
  5. There was a blessing upon the first fruits of the Omer, the two loaves offered on Shevuoth, and on the loaves of the showbread so that each priest was satisfied with a portion no larger than the size of an olive.
Following the death of one of our more righteous sages, The talmud teaches us that we were no longer able to sustain the same spiritual heights. And the above miracles became sporadic. Some years they ocurred, some years they didn’t.

Spiritual decay was at it worst during the last 40 years of the Temple (2nd). And none of the above miracles ocurred during that time.

Time for dinner, I’ll post a little more later. BUt that’s the jist of it.
 
Thanks for the very interesting answer, Valke2. I hope you understand that no offense was intended. I am just trying to see things a little more clearly from your (the Jewish) perspective.

As far as your statement on miracles, you’re right, of course. On the other hand, we as Christians have a certain expectation of miracles from time to time within the life of the Church and the lives of its members–as a testament to the presence of God. If we accept the God exists, why are we surprised when He inserts his finger into our reality (like touching the surface of a pond) as a reflection of His life and care for us?

Of course, the continued existence of Israel is miracle in and of itself, but I was curious whether there were examples of miracles of a more personal nature among the Jewish people, because it seems that (by and large) their frequency is much reduced from what it was. If this is true, then the question is why the reduction in “signs”? As I said, I’m just curious to understand your side a little better. Thanks!
 
Writer said:
Thanks for the very interesting answer, Valke2. I hope you understand that no offense was intended. I am just trying to see things a little more clearly from your (the Jewish) perspective.
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No offense taken.
As far as your statement on miracles, you’re right, of course. On the other hand, we as Christians have a certain expectation of miracles from time to time within the life of the Church and the lives of its members–as a testament to the presence of God. If we accept the God exists, why are we surprised when He inserts his finger into our reality (like touching the surface of a pond) as a reflection of His life and care for us?
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.

I’m not downplaying miracles or disputing them or their importance. The people of Israel saw a lot of Miracles leading up to Sinai and revelation. Rivers turning to blood, plagues, parting of the seas, pillars of fire, etc. Then Moses is a few days late coming down from the Mountain and what do we do? Build a golden calf. If witnessing such miracles was not enough to keep us on the straight and narrow, reading about them won’t be. It is hearing the still, small voice of God that is the real wake up call for the individual. Or at least searching for it.
Of course, the continued existence of Israel is miracle in and of itself, but I was curious whether there were examples of miracles of a more personal nature among the Jewish people, because it seems that (by and large) their frequency is much reduced from what it was. If this is true, then the question is why the reduction in “signs”? As I said, I’m just curious to understand your side a little better. Thanks!
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That’s a good question and I’m not sure I have a good answer for it. Some would agree that the existence of Israel today is a miracle. I’d actually like to research this topic a little more and answer this in greater detail later.
 
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