Why don't Lutherans join the EO or other Orthodox?

[josie_L]

As Jon points out, we have lost some of our best theologians to the Orthodox Church but as **phil **also points out, Lutherans are Western Christians and even more theologians/ pastors have entered the Roman Catholic Church than any other denomination combined.

I’m not sure if you’re aware of the belated Father Neuhaus, but he was a very well known and influential Catholic convert from Lutheranism (he was a liberal Lutheran). Here’s an article about the belated Father Neuhaus, who started the journal “First Things” (an intellectual but religiously minded Journal):

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/101-53.0.html?paging=off

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I’m not sure if you’re aware of the belated Father Neuhaus, but he was a very well known and influential Catholic convert from Lutheranism (he was a liberal Lutheran). Here’s an article about the belated Father Neuhaus, who started the journal “First Things” (an intellectual but religiously minded Journal):

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/101-53.0.html?paging=off

Ironically I met Father Neuhaus when he was the pastor of St John the Evangelist [LCMS] in Brooklyn. Actually, he lived in the rectory and mostly wrote books/ articles. There were several pastors at the parish since they had a daily Mass. Neuhaus lectured at Concordia College - Bronxville and hosted seminarian retreats at St Johns.

No one was surprised when Father Richard entered the Catholic priesthood. Several of the former Lutheran pastors writing for “First Things” are now Catholic. That is why I believe that when a Lutheran pastor decides to convert he turns to Rome.

 

[SteveVH]

Thanks IgnatianPhilo; I think that is a good summary and fairly accurate re: Lutherans.

The issue of apostolic succession, though still viewed as not necessary, has taken on more meaning…

May I ask, if apostolic succession is not necessary then what meaning are you ascribing to it? What understanding seems to be taking on more meaning?

Thanks.

Steve

 

[JonNC]

=IgnatianPhilo;12204663]I think while the Orthodox and Lutheran perspectives on a surface level can look very similar they are at their core very distinct and very much opposed to each other.

First, thanks for taking the time to post this.
This demonstrates how poorly Lutherans present our understanding of the role of works in the life of the regenerate.

Justification by faith alone may be the big thing preventing the two churches from ever uniting. In that, its not that Orthodoxy believes we somehow work to earn our salvation, as if by doing actions we can pay with them to God to enter into paradise, but we stress the need the for change, that we ought not be content in remaining sinners but instead perfect ourselves and obey the commands of Christ. That we should “seek righteousness,”

I don’t believe a Lutheran could disagree with this. I know I can’t.
Luther, as quoted in our confessions:

Thus faith is a divine work in us, that changes us and regenerates us of God, and puts to death the old Adam, makes us entirely different men in heart, spirit, mind, and all powers, and brings with it [confers] the Holy Ghost. Oh, it is a living, busy, active, powerful thing that we have in faith, so that it is impossible for it not to do good without ceasing. 11] Nor does it ask whether good works are to be done; but before the question is asked, it has wrought them, and is always engaged in doing them. But he who does not do such works is void of faith, and gropes and looks about after faith and good works, and knows neither what faith nor what good works are, yet babbles and prates with many words concerning faith and good works. 12] [Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him].

Not be like the unprofitable servant, “abstain from every kind of sexual immorality” and “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Yet at the same time the ORthodox prayer books say things like this, “o lord heavenly king, comforter and spirit of truth, show compassion and have mercy on me your sinful servant and remit and loose me from my unworthiness, and forgive all wherein I have sinned against you today as a man, not only as a man but even worse than a beast…”

And again, Amen.

From what I see in the Orthodox patristic tradition we embrace an emphasis on both faith and works whereas in Lutheranism the sole focus is on faith alone, our complete and utter unworthiness before Christ, that he is the sole reason for which we are saved and we do nothing to effect that.

This is true. The sole reason for which we can be saved is grace, and we access grace through the gift of faith, which brings us justification.

There is little emphasis in Lutheranism (from what I have seen) like there is in the orthodox church on the need to do good works. Perhaps the Lutherans may charge me with not detailing their position but from what I’ve read and heard from Lutherans is the emphasis on faith alone. I am not saying that Lutherans deny works, I know they believe works are the natural outcome of faith.

More than a natural outcome of faith, but an inseparable part of faith. Continued from the above quote:

And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, **so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire. **

continued

 

[JonNC]

Perhaps the main distinction is in the monergism and synergism dichotomy. The Orthodox believe man can work with God, that we can be receptive to him and embrace him and then with God’s help or guiding hand as it were we are made Holy and “saved.” That is we can of our souls accept the help that God offers. God reaches out, we accept it and we are saved and continue on to glorification in the hopes of resurrection in glory. I will leave it to a Lutheran to explain monergism which I believe centers everything in God, that we are not doing anything ourselves but it is solely God through us who does whatever is good.

By monergism, we mean that man is incapable, in his fallen state, to seek out or respond to God without grace, and the intervention of the Spirit,faith comes by hearing, regeneration in Baptism, etc. And to maintain justifying faith, we need the guidance of the Holy Spirit, continuing to hear His word, and receive the sacraments to strengthen faith.
But we can reject grace, and therefore, with the help of the Spirit, we respond with the new obedience. From Augsburg:

Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God’s will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification 2] before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. The same is also taught by 3] the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.

Luther sums up in his Commentary on Galatians:
5:6

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

Jon

 

[Kosta]

I apologize if this is an ignorant question. I constantly see Lutherans bring up the EO as evidence of there being no Papal Supremacy. So what are the defining reasons that Lutherans don’t join Orthodoxy? What is it that the Orthodox believe that Lutherans can’t accept and if they do accept them why not unite with them?

A side and more bold question to Lutherans: If the Orthodox are also wrong about certain beliefs then at what point did they possibly fall into some type of heresy? Because if they have not in any way, I would expect Lutherans to want to unite?

Forgive me if they’re silly questions, but I don’t know much on the Lutheran perspective of Orthodox.

Thank you.

For what it’s worth, there is at least one Western Orthodox church in Detroit that came from a Lutheran background. The church is called Holy Incarnation, it is part of the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America, and its priest is Fr. John Fenton.

 

[Stilldreamn]

For what it’s worth, there is at least one Western Orthodox church in Detroit that came from a Lutheran background. The church is called Holy Incarnation, it is part of the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America, and its priest is Fr. John Fenton.

A great loss to the LCMS. This caused a bit of consternation among the “Misery Synod” bloggers (only we get to call ourselves that )

One of the more measured responses: A Lutheran Pastor Heads East