Why don't most higher up scientists believe in a God?

[Lily_Bernans]

I think some academics become atheists because the more one learns - about anything - the more one questions everything. I’m a PhD candidate in Theology, however, even in theology, some students who initially believed in God, tend toward agnosticism or even atheism. They say it’s just “too good to be true.” It might sound that way, but it IS true!

 

[mjs2001]

?
How does the citing of the two scientists prove “one can be a super genius and have no wisdom or humility”?
Or are you talking about the OP?
Are you saying that because these two scientists don’t believe in a god, they are unwise and not humble?
.

My post was as clear as mud. I was not referring to the OP, I was referring to the scientists that he cited. With respect to those scientists, I’m not saying that their atheism is the only reason they are unwise and not humble.

However, I do assert that one cannot be an atheist and also be a wise or humble person, though atheists might be (and frequently are) extremely intelligent.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

However, I do assert that one cannot be an atheist and also be a wise or humble person, though atheists might be (and frequently are) extremely intelligent.

I would take a contrary position on this. I believe wisdom of the kingdom and humility are at a more fundamental level than a belief system is required.

You might argue that an atheist is highly unlikely to find humility, given their lack of available tools that believers have. That said, there are IMO very few believers who actually come across as consistently delivering what Pope Francis seems to deliver, across many situations. So while the Church does have an amazing apophatic tradition including contemplative prayer and mysticism in general (Mystical theology = the “science of Love” according to Johnston’s book on Mystical Theology) only a few Catholics avail themselves of them.

Like so many Catholics try to build will power to fight their urges, when that is good for discipline, but to solve the problem requires personal transformation and learning how to love enemy, not judge, etc. When that happens, and the false self that Jesus says to deny subsides, the urges go away. The risk is that trying to use will power calls upon our human strength to fight our urges, rather than Divine Healing by the Holy Spirit (the Divine Therapist) to actually mortify us to those urges. So we may have better behavior, but inside still be fighting.

One of the potential traps of a believer is pride, because if we think we have an advantage in God’s eyes because we are of the “correct” belief, that puts us on dangerous ground compared to much of Jesus’ emphasis on group identification and even ostensible righteousness being poor and even negative indicators of any given members of those groups.

 

[mjs2001]

I would take a contrary position on this. I believe wisdom of the kingdom and humility are at a more fundamental level than a belief system is required.

You might argue that an atheist is highly unlikely to find humility, given their lack of available tools that believers.

First, I would absolutely agree that believers can be both prideful and unwise. Those are two issues that I struggle with daily, and I’m a believer. Certainly, I have tools as a Catholic to help me with those. I think that an atheist, though, rejects those (and similar) tools. What is his morality is based upon, apart from his own intellect and emotion? I see nothing but pride in that, and no wisdom. I can think of a host of athiests who were intellectual Giants, but I cannot think of a single one who was humble or wise.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

First, I would absolutely agree that believers can be both prideful and unwise. Those are two issues that I struggle with daily, and I’m a believer. Certainly, I have tools as a Catholic to help me with those. I think that an atheist, though, rejects those (and similar) tools. What is his morality is based upon, apart from his own intellect and emotion? I see nothing but pride in that, and no wisdom. I can think of a host of athiests who were intellectual Giants, but I cannot think of a single one who was humble or wise.

Maybe there is a difference between not believing in God, and in believing there is no God. The first could be called agnostic, really, while if they are “convinced” there is no God, then they have themselves created a God called “trust there is no God” that they cannot prove nor defend.

So I might be persuaded to believe that atheism, being sure there is no God, is itself a contradiction and indicator of the blindness that cannot be absent to have a person in this condition.

If a person says “I don’t believe in God” but declines to say “you are wrong if you do” then to me that may be acceptable and this person is a candidate for humility.

But if they say “there is no God” as if by their own logical they even would have the facility to know such a thing, then there definitely is an issue of stuckness to a story with a side dish of blindness.

For myself, so many people mean so many different things by “God” that creates another problem because I may believe in God, or that there is “a God” or at least a “higher order being or intelligence” or anything beyond human, generally. So if someone asks me “do you believe in God” in a surprising context, I may hedge a little bit because I can believe in God, but not believe in whatever image this person has of God that they are asking me to assent to.

For example I don’t believe that God is a human-like form, an old bearded man in the sky as it were, looking down like an OCD Santa Clause who just waits to put coal in the stockings given a chance. But this is precisely the image of God I get from some devout Catholics even. Not specifically a bearded man, but effectively so. For this reason, I try to give atheists the benefit of the doubt that they have been vaccinated against Truth, but well-intentioned believers trying to sell their own image of God as God Himself.

 

[Tomdstone]

The reason they reject a creator has noting to do with science. It is because they don’t want to live under the MORAL constraints of the creator. (according to Thomas Huxley)

There are atheists who live by a moral code based on humanism.

 

[rose_kelly]

There are atheists who live by a moral code based on humanism.

Yes there are, but some of them seem to think their humanism is a new moral system created only by them, rather than a set of values and influences they may have inherited.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Yes there are, but some of them seem to think their humanism is a new moral system created only by them, rather than a set of values and influences they may have inherited.

To me that in itself isn’t a problem. But they might tend to discount the traditions that have evolved for some reason and may have value.

 

[Tomdstone]

Yes there are, but some of them seem to think their humanism is a new moral system created only by them, rather than a set of values and influences they may have inherited.

Why would it make a difference as long as they live by a moral code?
Also, articles have been written suggesting that the moral code and altruism are a product of evolution.

 

[rose_kelly]

To me that in itself isn’t a problem. But they might tend to discount the traditions that have evolved for some reason and may have value.

Why would it make a difference as long as they live by a moral code?
Also, articles have been written suggesting that the moral code and altruism are a product of evolution.

I’m not suggesting there is a problem, when its perfectly obvious that most atheists live by a moral code.

I was simply pointing out that some of those who call themselves humanists will entirely dismiss any suggestion that their humanist values have developed from any religious teachings.

As for “altruism being a product of evolution” judging from human behaviour, that would take some convincing.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I’m not suggesting there is a problem, when its perfectly obvious that most atheists live by a moral code.

I was simply pointing out that some of those who call themselves humanists will entirely dismiss any suggestion that their humanist values have developed from any religious teachings.

As for “altruism being a product of evolution” judging from human behaviour, that would take some convincing.

Thank you for the clearification!

I don’t much about “humanism” except from sources that are likely to be pretty biased.

As far as altruism from evolution, I think what makes sense is whatever behavior perpetuates and grows the species.

All of our ancestors had one thing in common: they lived long enough to reproduce. They had to work together as a team to some extent to overcome nature’s challenges and proliferate or by definition they don’t end up as out ancestors and the genes that drive that behavior are out.

Have you ever seen the movie, “The Gods Must be Crazy”? The first part is my favorite, where they show a village of “bushmen” who have a simple nomadic life, until a modern “miracle” drops into their midst – a coke bottle from a plane overhead. Then they become materialistic and selfish.

 

[rose_kelly]

Thank you for the clearification!

**I don’t know much about “humanism”**except from sources that are likely to be pretty biased.

As far as altruism from evolution, I think what makes sense is whatever behavior perpetuates and grows the species.

All of our ancestors had one thing in common: they lived long enough to reproduce. They had to work together as a team to some extent to overcome nature’s challenges and proliferate or by definition they don’t end up as out ancestors and the genes that drive that behavior are out.

Have you ever seen the movie, “The Gods Must be Crazy”? The first part is my favorite, where they show a village of “bushmen” who have a simple nomadic life, until a modern “miracle” drops into their midst – a coke bottle from a plane overhead. Then they become materialistic and selfish.

I’m sure you do.
We are “humanists” ourselves if we’re following the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I’m sure you do.
We are “humanists” ourselves if we’re following the teachings of Jesus.

Works for me.