Why don't people listen to those who live the life?

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In light of Brother Mike’s post above I feel I must say this in case anyone has misunderstood me.
I had forgotten all about these friars. By the way, the Carmelites in Wyoming are not in the same situation. They did not leave the Carmelites without permission. They never belonged to either of the Carmelite obediences. They are autonomous and they are in good standing with the Church. They are a community of diocesan right. They answer to the local bishop, not to the Holy See or the Carmelites.
I have no issues with the Wyoming Carmelite Monks. My issue is with those who direct people who say they feel called to the Carmelites to them as a first choice. Again, as they are not part of either the O.Carm. or the Discalced Carmelites and are not a religious order.

That is my only issue. I think they are a great group and I hear they make great coffee.

I also think their future plans for their monastery is great and I hope and pray it comes to be.
 
The role of the diocesan vocation director is to send men to the diocesan seminary or women to the religious communities that serve his diocese. Some bishops are changing the rules for their vocation officers. I heard Archbishop Dolan say that he is pushing men to become brothers. He said that “Brothers are the forgotten vocation in the Church. The Church has lost more brothers than priests.” So, he is very concerned, because he does not want to see the brothers disappear. Bishop Wenski, of Miami, is very committed to serve the poor. He was just installed. We may be seeing his vocation office promoting those communities that work with the poor. Cardinal Sean of Boston is as Franciscan as they come. He has welcomed many emerging Franciscans to his diocese. This does not mean that the diocesan office will not give preferential attention to the priesthood and its diocese. As Brother Mike said, the community and the diocese has an obligation to keep itself alive.

However, we also have to keep the big picture alive. When we were released to found the new community we received over 100 inquiries. Guess how many we have admitted. Ans. One

Why? Everyone of those who came to us made better Carmelites, Dominicans, diocesan priests, Jesuits and so forth. They needed a large stable community, not an emerging communit where life is very hard. Though we need men to work among the most vulnerable and to proclaim the Gospel of Life, we need the men that God calls to this way of life and do this work, not the one who likes us. I’m sending a bill to several dioceses and religious orders. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
That is great that some dioceses are waking up to this.

I remember the day I left home for the pre-novitiate I went to morning Mass at the parish where I was fully recieved into the Catholic Church 5 years earlier (long story). I waited until after Mass and introduced my self to the priest who was the new (new since I had been there) and asked for his blessing on my trip, which he gave but then he added that he is the vocations director for the diocese and that the diocese needs priests more than the religious orders and that I should stay.
 
😉

I agree with your comments that it is perhaps that “some people don’t listen” not all and that sweeping generalizations are almost never accurate and may state more about the person stating.

TS
I certainly don’t mean to say that no one listens. That would be silly. When I wrote the title of the thread I was not sorting through my head how many do and how many don’t listen. My statement is like another that I use frequently, “People are crazy.”

By the way, religious do like lay people. I can say that I work with more lay people than I do with religious and clergy. The nature of my ministry is such that most of the folks who work in the pro-life movement are lay people. They are great people.

Even though they are great and holy people, they too get frustrated with the religious. I know that one sticking point with the lay people in this ministry is obedience. The lay person who works in pro-life has a sense of urgency in the battle against abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research and arbitrary death penalties. Often, they plan activities and they get frustrated when they ask the religious to participate and the religious respond, “I have to get permission.” They get very frustrated, because they don’t understand how permission to participate in a pro-life rally cannot be assumed, “It’s an urgent need.” That’s their perspective. I always have to explain, “If you disobey, even to preserve a life, you have done something wrong. The end never justifies the means.” This blows them away.

They don’t often realize that this is like asking a married person to commit to something without consuling the spouse. It should not be done. This is another good example of the need to understand the big picture. We do like secular lay people. But we’re often a question mark to them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I believe these were Capuchin-Franciscans. There may have been Franciscans from another obedience too. I know about the Capuchin-Franciscans who followed the Traditionalists movement. I don’t know if they were really following the SSPX, because they are two different communities.



I would not encourage anyone to join a community that exists against the wishes of a superior. It’s not the same as joining a new community that is still in the processof seeking legal recogniton. These are OK. People are allowed to form communities and to seek the approval of the Church. That’s how all communities begin. What you’re not allowed to do is to go off on without the permission of your superiors once you’re in a community.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Wow - OK, I do feel better - I had someone in another group tell me once that they were going into an SSPX Franciscan Monastery and I gave him my opinion which I was told unless I was going into a Franciscan Nunnery had no weight - but this same person also told me that being in communion with Rome was also not important to him.

My answer to that which I left at was that one of the Rule of Orders was that as Franciscans in all three Orders we support the Magisterium 100%. So if you are not in support of the Magisterium to the point where you do not care if you are in communion with the Vatican why would you want to identify yourself with an order where that is so important?

I never got an answer except for this person calling our Holy See murderers of the unborn and in collusion with Jews and Muslims. It was very sad. I try not to argue with walls.
 
That is great that some dioceses are waking up to this.
We all need to wake up to this. I would never be a good Carmelite. I don’t look good in a flowing white mantle. I’m too short. 😛 But I know enough about the Carmelite spirit and life to see lights flashing when someone says key words: contemplation + community + discipline + priesthood = Carmelites (O’Carm variety). Preaching, teaching, missions, scholarship and priesthood, may be Dominican or Jesuit. Brotherhood, prayer, obedience, poverty, simplicity, and service, may equal one of the Franciscans and so forth.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
But I know enough about the Carmelite spirit and life to see lights flashing when someone says key words: contemplation + community + discipline + priesthood = Carmelites
I wish there was a simple formula like this when I started my discernment process.
 
I wish there was a simple formula like this when I started my discernment process.
It’s funny that you say that. Without reducing it to the ridiculous, there are some telltale signs of certain charisms. I have interviewed many men for the Brothers of Life. When they throw out “priest” more than three times, I know that they are not Franciscan material. Most of the branches of the Franciscan order have priests, but just look at how we refer to them or how they refer to themselves, “brother-priest”, “ordained friar”, “clerical brother” or “those friars who are priests.” The stress is always on friar, which is bad English for Frater (Brother). The men who come with the idea of doing priestly work are usually thinking: parish and sacraments. Many of our ordained do not do parish work or sacraments, other than celebrate mass. They have no special place in the community. They have the same rights and duties as everyone else. Therefore, when you hear the word in an interview with such emphasis, you have a sense that this man will be unhappy if he were ever asked to become the community servant in a house that is not attached to a parish or to be the subordinate to a superior who is not ordained. He’d be happier with a community of priests or a diocese.

The same goes when men tell me that they want to be theologians or scholars. We have them. I went through a doctoral program in theology. I taught it for several years. But we are not a family of scholars. We have scholars in the family. So I point these men to the Jesuits or to a diocese that I may know that can use scholars.

I recently pointed a man to the Dominicans. He wanted to be a preacher. Well, St. Francis was certainly a preacher and his sons do their fare share of preaching. But we are happy to preach without ever getting up in a pulpit or a podium at a retreat. However, the Dominicans can use gifted preachers. This is what they do and do it well.

There are no simple formulae, but there are buzzwords that you learn to listen for.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I certainly don’t mean to say that no one listens. That would be silly. When I wrote the title of the thread I was not sorting through my head how many do and how many don’t listen. My statement is like another that I use frequently, “People are crazy.”

By the way, religious do like lay people. I can say that I work with more lay people than I do with religious and clergy. The nature of my ministry is such that most of the folks who work in the pro-life movement are lay people. They are great people.

Even though they are great and holy people, they too get frustrated with the religious. I know that one sticking point with the lay people in this ministry is obedience. The lay person who works in pro-life has a sense of urgency in the battle against abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research and arbitrary death penalties. Often, they plan activities and they get frustrated when they ask the religious to participate and the religious respond, “I have to get permission.” They get very frustrated, because they don’t understand how permission to participate in a pro-life rally cannot be assumed, “It’s an urgent need.” That’s their perspective. I always have to explain, “If you disobey, even to preserve a life, you have done something wrong. The end never justifies the means.” This blows them away.

They don’t often realize that this is like asking a married person to commit to something without consuling the spouse. It should not be done. This is another good example of the need to understand the big picture. We do like secular lay people. But we’re often a question mark to them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I agree with most of your comments, Brother. It has not been until well after V2 that laypeople were given real insight into the religious life and some are still learning - it must get frustrating for religious to have to deal with lay people who do not understand religious life and that the askings of this vocation is the priority for religious - just as some laypeople can get frustrated because they do not understand the life and religious may seem not to be acting as a situation may ask. It seems to me to be a call to educate with patience, gentleness and calm - and perhaps saintly patience, gentleness and calm!.. and I too value many many of your posts. I read somewhere or other that demanding and frustrating people are sent into a community to polish virtue, which gave me a big smile. I guess some of us laypeople justly or unjustly are like that for religious in the life of The Church. Just as justly or unjustly some laypeople can feel the same about some religious in the Community of The Church (and the big picture). Indeed we are all crazy:) and somewhat saints and somewhat sinners. We differ only in kind.

I guess it is a question of the sower who went out to sow

TS
 
I agree with most of your comments, Brother. It has not been until well after V2 that laypeople were given real insight into the religious life and some are still learning - it must get frustrating for religious to have to deal with lay people who do not understand religious life and that the askings of this vocation is the priority for religious - just as some laypeople can get frustrated because they do not understand the life and religious may seem not to be acting as a situation may ask. It seems to me to be a call to educate with patience, gentleness and calm - and perhaps saintly patience, gentleness and calm!.. and I too value many many of your posts. I read somewhere or other that demanding and frustrating people are sent into a community to polish virtue, which gave me a big smile. I guess some of us laypeople justly or unjustly are like that for religious in the life of The Church. Just as justly or unjustly some laypeople can feel the same about some religious in the Community of The Church (and the big picture). Indeed we are all crazy:) and somewhat saints and somewhat sinners. We differ only in kind.

I guess it is a question of the sower who went out to sow

TS
A VERY WISE POST INDEED. 👍

When we keep in mind the big picture, the whole Church, we come to a better understanding of our roles and our call. I think that it helps us understand where we fit in.

Not too long ago a young man told me, “I think I want to be a priest.”

I looked at him and said, “I’m glad that we have that out of the way. Now that we know what you want. Let’s find out what God wants. It’s not about you giving him something, but about you letting him take what he wants and accepting what he gives.” He didn’t know what to say. So I told him to go and ask God what he wanted to take and ask him for the grace to accept whatever God wanted to give.

He came back some weeks later and said, “I’m going to find a wife.” God had answered, once he opened himsel up to God’s wishes. I believe that he will be a holy husband instead of a unhappy priest. There was something in that smile that told me so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I think that when it comes to trotting out names of communities and “Is X good?” etc., there are at least three quotations from the Saints that are worth keeping in mind:

“There are no two good ways of serving God. There is only one: serve Him as He desires to be served.”
  • St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney
“Never compare one person with another: comparisons are odious.”
  • St. Teresa of Avila
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.”
  • St. Peter of Alcantara
 
It’s funny that you say that. Without reducing it to the ridiculous, there are some telltale signs of certain charisms. I have interviewed many men for the Brothers of Life. When they throw out “priest” more than three times, I know that they are not Franciscan material. Most of the branches of the Franciscan order have priests, but just look at how we refer to them or how they refer to themselves, “brother-priest”, “ordained friar”, “clerical brother” or “those friars who are priests.” The stress is always on friar, which is bad English for Frater (Brother). The men who come with the idea of doing priestly work are usually thinking: parish and sacraments. Many of our ordained do not do parish work or sacraments, other than celebrate mass. They have no special place in the community. They have the same rights and duties as everyone else. Therefore, when you hear the word in an interview with such emphasis, you have a sense that this man will be unhappy if he were ever asked to become the community servant in a house that is not attached to a parish or to be the subordinate to a superior who is not ordained. He’d be happier with a community of priests or a diocese.

The same goes when men tell me that they want to be theologians or scholars. We have them. I went through a doctoral program in theology. I taught it for several years. But we are not a family of scholars. We have scholars in the family. So I point these men to the Jesuits or to a diocese that I may know that can use scholars.

I recently pointed a man to the Dominicans. He wanted to be a preacher. Well, St. Francis was certainly a preacher and his sons do their fare share of preaching. But we are happy to preach without ever getting up in a pulpit or a podium at a retreat. However, the Dominicans can use gifted preachers. This is what they do and do it well.

There are no simple formulae, but there are buzzwords that you learn to listen for.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Is there any orders that focuses on simplicity, preaching, being a theologian, and social justice? Could a Diocesan Priest do all of this?
 
Is there any orders that focuses on simplicity, preaching, being a theologian, and social justice? Could a Diocesan Priest do all of this?
I don’t see why a diocesan priest cannot do this. As to orders that combine all the above . . . I don’t know. I know that certain orders, such as the branch of the Franciscan order known as the Franciscans (not all of the Franciscan Orders use that as their name); the Franciscans and the Capuchins do not have a specific ministry. Therefore, a friar can be all the above.

The Dominicans focus on preaching, being theologians, simplicity and priesthood. They are not known for being involved in social justice issues. That’s not their call. However, that does not mean that a Dominican cannot be. As a community, they are not involved. Individually, it’s possible, with the permission of the Prior.

Simplicity has many expressions. You can go from the austerity of a Capuchin to the simplicity of a Carmelite. Both live simple lives, but the former is much more austere than the latter. The Carmelite owns his computer and gets an allowance. The Capuchin owns nothing and gets no allowance.

You can take that to the next level and go from the Jesuit to the Franciscan Brother of Life. The Jesuits own great institutions and large pieces of property in common, while the Franciscan Brothers of Life live in rented apartments and borrowed houses. However, the Jesuits do not own these large institutions as individuals. When they move, that institution stays behind. When the order decides to give up a college, they don’t take it with them, nor do they try to make a large profit on a sale. That is certainly simplicity if you compare it to what the rest of the world does.

The priesthood is also expressed differently from one community to another. In some communities, the priesthood is essential to their identity. They were founded to be communities of priests. In other communities, such as my own, the priesthood is accidental. We like to say that we allow priests to join us, even though some of our men are ordained after they have made perpetual vows. Nevertheless, as we say, they are brothers who exercise priestly ministry in service to their brothers and sisters. They don’t see themselves as having a special place in the community.

There was a short period when this was the case, from about 1800 to about 1970. That’s short given the fact that this family was founded in 1209. However, that was a need that the Church had. She asked religious orders to help supply priests to the world. By 1963, it became clear that the Franciscan family had abused the privilege. Vatican II back peddled and tried to correct the mistake by commanding these orders to go back to their roots. In doing so, orders like the Franciscans went back to Tradition. We are a brotherhood of equals with different gifts. Those brothers who have a call to Holy Orders serve the Church as priests. But when they return to the community, they are like every other brother. They obey. They do laundry. They pray. They have duties within the community and most importantly, the community’s life comes before the service to the outside world. So when one of these priests has to choose between hearing celebrating sacraments and going to community recreation, guess which he chooses – community recreation. Like a married man must first choose his wife over his neighbor, the Franciscan must fist choose his brothers over his neighbor. The order, on the other hand, because it exists for the Church, tries to accommodate the needs of the neighbor into its daily routine so that these conflicts rarely come up. However, they do, occasionally. This is another variation on how the priesthood is lived from one religious community to another.

A Father of Mercy belongs to a religious community whose mission is to show the mercy of Christ the priest. They structure their lives around that vision. Unlike the Franciscan, for the Father of Mercy, celebrating a mass for his parishioners comes first and dining with his confreres may have to be sacrificed. Nonetheless, the confreres are unaffected by this, because they all share the same vision and they all do it when they have to do it.

We can’t just talk about simplicity, theological scholarship, priesthood, social justice, etc. All priests, religious and lay people are called to these at some level or another. The degree and the manner in how they do it are going to vary from one situation to another or from one community to another.

A Jesuit would certainly give greater attention to theological scholarship than he would to simplicity. A Franciscan would simply sacrifice the work. Neither is better. They are expressions of the same virtue, obedience to God’s will for you and your community.

The diocesan priest does not have to ask himself what is consistent with the community, because he does not belong to a community. I always like to describe the diocesan as a man who is his own founder, superior general, rule and constitution.
Remember what I said in previous posts. Marriage is the best point of reference when speaking about religious life. Whatever does not work in a marriage may not work in a religious house.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
No, I’ve never formed a group. Never thought about it. If someone forms on, I’d be happy to join.

I like your name. That was my name, before I became Jason Richard. I was born Jason Julian.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Named after a Great Uncle whom my father admired.

Went to your Group, I think I joined, but I am not a religious, so you may want to remove me, but I am very curious in your statement yesterday regarding “parish priests” as being “secular” verses consecrated. I thought all priest were consecrated, so provide so more insight into that difference.
Thanks
 
Named after a Great Uncle whom my father admired.

Went to your Group, I think I joined, but I am not a religious, so you may want to remove me, but I am very curious in your statement yesterday regarding “parish priests” as being “secular” verses consecrated. I thought all priest were consecrated, so provide so more insight into that difference.
Thanks
I have approved you for the group. After some thought and sleeping on it this group is going to be open to anyone. I will leave it as a moderated group because I want it for those who have been around for awhile and have real questions/support of our religious and secular clergy.
 
I thought all priest were consecrated, so provide so more insight into that difference.
Thanks
The term “consecrated” is used to mean different things in different contexts. For example, we have the consecrated host. There is means transubstantiated. We have consecrations to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, this means devoted to and placed under her care. We are consecrated at Baptism, that has another meaning. A priest’s hands are consecrated in order to bless, that too is a different meaning. Then there is the consecrated life.

CONSECRATED LIFE OR CONSECRATED MAN (CLERIC OR BOTHER)

The Church divides men into two groups: seculars and consecrated. To understand the difference it helps to understand the consecrated life. The consecrated life arose from men, later women, who left everything to live in intense communion with God. To make a long story very short, let’s fast forward to St. Benedict. A consecrated man lives in a stable community of brothers. These brothers may be priests, but need not be priests. The priesthood is not essential to their daily life. They can just as easily invite a priest to come in to celebrate mass for them and hear their confessions and leave. Their lives revolve around prayer, brotherhood to each other, the perfection of charity, following the Gospel by living according to a common rule of life. The rule dictates how they pray, how they live, what work they do, how they are governed, how they are formed, what they may own and how it’s managed. It binds them to obey the superior, the other brothers when they vote on something in a chapter, it liberates them from obedience to a bishop, it also liberates them from the laity. They are not obliged to serve the laity. They can be totally enclosed, such as Carthusians or they can have some ministries to the laity. Their commitment to the service of the laity is determined by the founder and the rule.

These consecrated men enter into a covenant relationship with God and the Church. The foundation of this relationship is always obedience. They must obey on all matters, not just on matters of work. They do not have things, unless it is approved. They do not travel or leave the house, unless it’s approved. They do not pray the EF or the OF, unless it’s approved. They do not take on any duties, unless these are approved. They don’t even have friends, unless there is permission to have outside contacts.

Our of obedience, they make other vows. They vow to live without property. They own nothing. The community decides what material things they can have and the community may take it way too. They don’t even own their opinions, desires or goals. All of their opinions, desires and goals, must fit into the vision and mission of the community. They must put distance between them and those things that are not consistent with their community. That too is part of obedience.

They also vow to live consecrated celibacy. This has the same component as the promise of celibacy made by secular priests and deacons, not to get married. However, there is more to it. They surrender the gift of marriage and the possibility of fatherhood from that point forward (many were married and are fathers) and in exchange they bind themselves to each other as a husband and wife bind themselves. They take care of each other. They never act without thinking about their community. Their choices must serve the common good or at least not do harm to the common good. They have a moral duty to promote their life in order to keep the community alive.

The live by a horarium (schedule) that they all follow. In some communities that schedule may be more prayer and less work and in others it’s the other way around. The life in community is very important to them. In some communities, they may even sacrifice hearing confessions, saying mass or serving a parish, to be free to spend time with their brothers to pray, play, eat, study, or do some other service such as be a superior or a formator.

The Church calls this the Consecrated Life and refers to these men as Consecrated. They are not all priests, though many are. Some communities allow priests, provided that they do not see any special recognition or privileges because they are ordained. Everything is done so that the priests will blend into the community and become almost anonymous, even at mass. Only what is absolutely necessary of the priesthood is allowed. That’s going to vary based on their work. In some types of work, the priestly ministry is going to be more visible than in others.
 
SECULAR MAN AND SECULAR CLERIC (DEACON, PRIEST AND BISHOP)

A parish priest, is usually a secular priest, called a diocesan priest. He belongs to a diocese and has none of the above obligations or vows. He is autonomous. He makes a promise to obey the bishop, only in pastoral matters. He promises not to marry, but does not promise to replace the family that he has (parents, siblings, etc) with a new family of brothers. He owns as much as he wants to own. He has no rule that says when to pray, how to pray, how to dress, what he can do with his spare time. There is no rule to control his opinions and his spiritual life. He may be very faithful to St. Francis, St. John Vianney, St. Teresa or several saints. Whereas a Benedictine is faithful to St. Benedict All Benedictines look at him as their Father, just as Franciscans look at Francis as Father and Dominicans look at Augustine as Father and so forth. Dominicans do not have a rule of their own. St. Dominic followed St. Augustine. The secular priest has friends and does not live in a stable community. The men with whom he lives are his brother priests, just as the people that you share your life with are your brother teachers, brother housewives, brother Christians, etc. They are not bound to care for each other or to make a life together as a family. They can live in the same house as one would live in any residence. You can decide how much you want to be together and you can decide never to speak to these folks, as long as the work gets done, the Church does not care. You’re a secular man and you do not lose that status or its rights.

As you can see, their life is very much like that of any other person. What makes them different is their ministry. They are ordained in to the priesthood of Jesus Christ to bring the grace of the sacraments to the Church. Their personal life is not consecrated to God as is that of a religious, because they never surrender it. The individual certainly does. We have very holy diocesan (secular) priests, such as John Vianney. They surrendered their lives to God, but not in communion with brothers It’s one-on-one. For example, John Vianney, Leo XII, Pius X, and John XXIII all became Secular Franciscans. This way they could live independently and at the same time guide their spiritual lives by the rule of St. Francis. However, Paul VI became a Lay Dominican. He guided his life by the spirit of St. Dominic. Pope Benedict guides his life by a combination of the Augustinian and Franciscan spirit. They are secular men, they have no commitment to follow one or the other spirituality. They pick and combine what works for them. But they maintain all the freedoms of any secular person.

To become a consecrated man is to give up all those freedoms and to submit to obedience to a rule, the spirituality of that rule and the community that follows that rule. You consecrate your life to achieve the perfection of charity down a single path, with a single group of people, guided by a single father who is the founder. Whether you are a priest or not is irrelevant, because the vows and the rule regulate how you’re going to get to heaven, not the priesthood.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I should have added that in the consecrated life, there are communities of consecrated men that are for priests who want to live the consecrated life: Fathers of Mercy, Dominicans, Carthusians, O’Carm, Franciscans of the Immaculate, Franciscans of the Eternal Word, Salesians, Jesuits, and many others. These communities have other brothers who are not priests. They are part of the community, make the same vows and live by the same rule, but they do not have the same rights. The mission of these consecrated brothers is to support the work of their brother priests. But that being said, a priest who is a Carmelite, is a consecrated man and you should be able to walk up to him and tell the difference between him and the diocesan priest up the street. I like to say, you should be able to smell spirituality of Mt. Carmel in him. If not, there is something wrong, not with the Carmelites, but either with your nose or with the priest. 😃 The way that he does his priestly work should reflect his Carmelite spirit.

There are communities of consecrated men that have bothers who are priests and those who are not. But the community was not founded for priests. It is open to both, lay and cleric. They are equally brothers. They make the same vows, follow the same rule, have the same duties and the same rights. You should not be able to tell them apart, except when it comes time to celebrate the sacraments. These would be the other Franciscan communities, the Benedictines, Marianists, Cistercians, Trinitarians, O’Praem, Servites, Missionaries of Charity, and Missionaries of the Poor. In some of these communities they even only one title, Brother, with the superior being called Father or they may choose Friar, if they are mendicant. Often, out of custom, people will refer to the ordained as Father, but that’s not the way that they see themselves. They view themselves as religious.

Finally, there are communities that do not ordain any of their men in order to avoid clericalism. They desier to preserve the consecrated life without the confusioin that may arise by having priests. Such communities are: many Franciscans, Christian Brothers, Brothers of the Good Shepherd, Alexian Brothers, Brothers of Christ the King and many others.

All of them are communities of consecrated men as I described above.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Br JR,
I was not aware of the freedom that a parish priest enjoys, especially as regards ownership, nor was I fully knowledgeable of the limits that a consecrated religious accepts. Thank you for the detailed information, it was educational for me.

I was taught by Dominican nuns for 5 years, and I always assumed nuns and sisters were the same, however now would I be correct to assume sisters would be a religious such as a Francisan as you described and nuns would be more secular, is that a proper view?
 
Wow, this thread has really wandered off the path hasn’t it?

Well, I’m done here. I’ve heard enough complaints by the religious to know that my amatuer laymens advice is not needed here or wanted here. I’ve looked back at my own responses to questions and have realised that I have only contributed to the problem that the religious have noted here. I thought I was helping, but really, I have not. My answers have been quite simple and wrong. Questions about vocations are best left to the religious and I will leave them to it. Even though most of my posts and time at CAF have been in this forum and I have enjoyed my time here I am done here and I think other lay people should consider doing the same. We have no expertise in this matter. It has become obvious that we are a problem for the religious in this forum and we should drop out in order for the religious to give true answers to vocation questions.
 
Br JR,
I was not aware of the freedom that a parish priest enjoys, especially as regards ownership, nor was I fully knowledgeable of the limits that a consecrated religious accepts. Thank you for the detailed information, it was educational for me.

I was taught by Dominican nuns for 5 years, and I always assumed nuns and sisters were the same, however now would I be correct to assume sisters would be a religious such as a Francisan as you described and nuns would be more secular, is that a proper view?
Short answer.

No, both nuns and sisters are consecrated religious.

Sisters are active while nuns are cloistered.
 
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