Why don't Protestants asks the saints for intercession?

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It seems to me a natural thing to ask the Saints in heaven to pray for me just as I ask people here on earth to pray for me. Just because the Saints are no longer here on earth doesn’t seem to be a reason not to ask them for help. Look at Revelations 5:8:
When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
This seems to me to obviously be a reference to the saints in heaven praying for us.
 
some might tell you it would be too “popish” or too “romanist” to do such a thing. :rolleyes:
Which some have told to me, seeking to “help” me be a “real” Christian. :rolleyes:

Peace,
Phil
 
some might tell you it would be too “popish” or too “romanist” to do such a thing. :rolleyes:
Which some have told to me, seeking to “help” me be a “real” Christian. :rolleyes:

Peace,
Phil
Wow, a bit of anger leaking out?
 
Not all non-Catholic Christians would have a problem asking a saint for prayers, but some denominations believe there are no saints. They believe that when you die, your soul “sleeps” in the grave with your body till Jesus returns. This belief seems to contradict Scripture, but I’ve heard it more than once.

Also many will say that we should only ask Jesus for help, because He is “the Way and the Light. No one will come to the Father except through” Him. This is also in contrast to Scripture since Saint Paul (for one example) often asked others for prayers and offered to pray for others as well.

Also, ESMD has a valid point. Many non-Catholic Christians likely have a problem with it merely because it seems too “Catholic” to them and if the Church says the sky is blue, then that is clear evidence that the sky is, in fact, green.

Hope that helps… God bless

Mike
 
No anger leaking out of me, I hope. My previous post was merely to illustrate my amusement with their attempts… though I do at times get irritated when being persistently attacked by arguments from my separated brethren…

Peace,
Phil
 
Maybe, we perfer the prayers of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, see Romans 8.
 
Many who follow “sola scriptura” have the tradition of equating asking intercession of the saints in Heaven to conjuring for the purpose of communication. They would point out 1 Sam 28:8-19 and Isaiah 8:19.

I felt this way for many years until I think I heard it on EWTN. An apologist explained it in a way that I opened up my mind. Then, in an evangelical Bible study, someone vehemently argued that the Old Testament saints were looking down on us constantly usin Hebrews 12:1. For me that closed the loop.
 
From a Lutheran perspective, the simple answer is found in the defense of the Augsburg Confession (bookofconcord.org/defense_20_saints.php):🙂
“[E]ven supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, [10] yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain.”

Lutherans believe that the saints in heaven pray for us here on earth, but that invocation is not something to which the consciences of believers ought to be bound.

“[4]Our Confession approves honors to the saints…Although concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general, so in heaven they pray for the Church in general, albeit no testimony concerning the praying of the dead is extant in the Scriptures, except the dream taken from the Second Book of Maccabees, 15:14.”
 
Not all non-Catholic Christians would have a problem asking a saint for prayers, but some denominations believe there are no saints. They believe that when you die, your soul “sleeps” in the grave with your body till Jesus returns. This belief seems to contradict Scripture, but I’ve heard it more than once.

Also many will say that we should only ask Jesus for help, because He is “the Way and the Light. No one will come to the Father except through” Him. This is also in contrast to Scripture since Saint Paul (for one example) often asked others for prayers and offered to pray for others as well.

Also, ESMD has a valid point. Many non-Catholic Christians likely have a problem with it merely because it seems too “Catholic” to them and if the Church says the sky is blue, then that is clear evidence that the sky is, in fact, green.

Hope that helps… God bless

Mike
First, most of the groups that would evoke “soul sleep” have other hang ups that would put them, at best, on the fringe. It does seem to be gaining a following though.

Second, this is where most of us were/ are. “I take my prayers to Jesus.” While this is true, they will ask others to pray for them. My previous post explains their problem of seeking intersession from the saints in Heaven.

The seeming “Catholic” may be the root of the problem. Personally, as I have studied and listened to both sides, much of the separation seems to be a lack of wanting to understand and semantics on many issues.
 
Well, my opinion doesnt seem to have been spoken yet, so here it is.

Aside from the common “We arent Catholic” argument, what typically follows for me is the statement “They are dead, they can’t hear us” or something very similar. When faced with the scriptural fact that God is the God of the living, not the dead, they will typically rebut with “But they are not God and cannot be everywhere, therefore they cannot hear you.” Basically showing a lack of theological understand of God in the sense of time and space, what heaven is substantially speaking, and what happens to us and where we go when we die.

Essentially, I think it comes down to what Myqyl said that they would argue against the sky being blue if that is what they Catholic Church said.

This kind of reminds me of politics today where one politician will say “I dont really have a platform, but I at least I am different than that other guy” with no regard to whether that other guy was correct or incorrect in his statements.

FSC
 
From my three decades as a Prostestant in a Trinity-believing faith, and not a theological point of view or even the Presbyterian faith (I didn’t become Presby until adulthood):

The evangelical and fundamentalist Protestants encourage a one-on-one relationship with God. If you go to God through anyone, it is Jesus. The Holy Spirit exists within us as we allow. You only deal with one of those three.

My childhood faith did not believe in “resting dead”, it just discouraged “playing with spirits”, as we were taught that Satan can easily take any form save that of God.
 
Would non-Catholics ever look at Revelations 5:8 and conclude the saints whose prayers were being brought before God were the saints in the flesh on earth rather than any reference to saints living in heaven? And would that have any validity?
 
It seems to me that besides of thinking that we are forbidden to ask intercession from the supernatural world - I mean, angels and the souls of deceased people, there’s yet another barrier caused by thinking along the line that it’s “Jesus and me”, “no need for middle-man”.

I think the people who object to “middle-men” might be missing the point that God wants us to use middle-men, probably because those middle-men are consistent with the way God set up his household (his Church), which is a family, a communion of angels and saints. And the Church has three parts, Church Militant (those souls living in bodies on Earth), Church Suffering (the souls in Purgatory), and Church Glorious (the souls of angels and saints in Heaven, plus a few people who are there body and soul - Holy Mary, Enoch, Elijah). I think God is trying to teach us a lesson about how we are all a family, how we should ask each other’s help and should lend a helping hand to others, but some Protestants are rejecting the lesson. Although, at the final analysis, those who will ask family members to pray for them, but refuse to ask the angels and saints from Heaven to pray for them, are inconsistent in their own behaviors. I mean, if you don’t need a middle-man, why would you ask your family, friends, and members from your church or faith community, to pray for you?

There’s yet another lesson that those folks are missing who are against the use of “middle-men”. God wanted us to use “middle-men” or “intercessors”, see for example Job 42: 7-9. There’s a lesson there, God would not hear the prayers of Job’s friends who offended the Lord, but he was willing to listen to the righteous Job’s intercessory prayer for his friends. I bet that showed Job’s friends in a very practical way that they ought to look at Job for an example of righteousness, as a model worthy to imitate in their own lives.

Quote from Job 42:

**7
And it came to pass after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and with your two friends; for you have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job.
8
Now, therefore, take seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up a holocaust for yourselves; and let my servant Job pray for you; for his prayer I will accept, not to punish you severely. For you have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job.”
9
Then Eliphaz the Temanite, and Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite, went and did as the LORD had commanded them. And the LORD accepted the intercession of Job.

Footnotes

[7] The three friends of Job (Elihu is ignored in the Epilogue) are criticized by the LORD because they had (even though in good faith) leveled false charges against him.

[8] Job becomes the intercessor for his friends, as were other great Old Testament characters, e.g., Abraham and Moses, and as our Lord would be, whom he prefigured. **

The above example shows that Job becomes a “middle-man” between his friends and God, and he does it because God instructs him to do so! :doh2:

When I pray for St. Anthony of Padua to intercede for me, I look up at his sanctity and shining example of his life, just like Job’s friends had to look up at Job. There’s a lesson there. And I acknowledge that I have no merits (at least not anywhere near the merits of St. Anthony), and that God will hear my request due to the merits of this glorious saint, St. Anthony of Padua. It’s the same lesson as with praying the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. All I have to offer God, all my merits, is no more than filthy rags. But I offer the precious Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, and I hope that my prayers will be heard on the merits of Jesus Christ. Whenever I look up at Jesus Christ himself, or his glorious saints, such as Holy Mary, St. Anthony, St. Francis of Assisi, and so on, I see a practical example to emulate in my own life. The lesson is this: follow Jesus Christ. Follow Holy Mary, and follow St. Anthony, St. Francis, or even, follow the 20th century saints Padre Pio, St. Therese Lisieux, St. Maximilian Kolbe. Follow their example. And I will trust that God will hear my prayers, not because I am good and I deserve it, but because my intercessors (Jesus Christ himself, and the saints whom I ask to intercede for me) are good and deserve God’s attention and help.

There’s one more problem that I imagine the Protestants who reject that the Catholic Church is infallible, would have with my approach. The Catholic Church insists that it has infallibly discerned that canonized saints, such as let’s say Padre Pio, who died somewhere around 1968, are in Heaven. I have no problem accepting that my Catholic Church received all the authority, from Jesus Christ, to discern such things. I do not doubt that St. Anthony of Padua, or St. Padre Pio, are in Heaven, because the Catholic Church says so. But I imagine, a lot of Protestants would reply, “And so what, if the Catholic Church says so?” I totally believe what the Catholic Church says it has discerned infallibly (error-free), while the Protestants don’t. So, why would a Protestant pray for Padre Pio’s or St. Anthony’s intercession, if he isn’t even sure that those folks are in Heaven? What if they are in Hell, why would he (a Protestant) risk asking someone in Hell to intercede for him?
 
Maybe, we perfer the prayers of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, see Romans 8.
Hi, Big,

God accepts all prayers from the heart… Jesus is one of the Trinity, way beyound our comprehension. Where God is there is the Holy Spirit and Jesus. With all the Saints.

God Bless
:)🍕
 
Would non-Catholics ever look at Revelations 5:8 and conclude the saints whose prayers were being brought before God were the saints in the flesh on earth rather than any reference to saints living in heaven? And would that have any validity?
Yes. Revelation 3:8 is not a representation of saints interceding for the faithful. Paul reminds us that there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Tim. 2:5) The image is that of Christ victorious. He has conquered sin and death and thus cast out the accuser who accused the saints before the throne of God. (Rev. 12:10) By His victory there is nothing prohibiting the prayers of the saints from reaching the throne of God. (Psa. 141:2) The veil was torn in two and we have direct access to God through Christ Jesus. (Heb. 10:19-22, Rom. 8:26-28)
 
It seems to me a natural thing to ask the Saints in heaven to pray for me just as I ask people here on earth to pray for me. Just because the Saints are no longer here on earth doesn’t seem to be a reason not to ask them for help. Look at Revelations 5:8:
This seems to me to obviously be a reference to the saints in heaven praying for us.
My thoughts on the scripture…First, in the NT all who are in Christ are saints…How about those prayers ascending to heaven from the saints on earth…If in the heavenly realm, is prayer needed to communicate…We pray to the Father as shown by Christ…We Know We can pray in the Authority of Christ as He our High Priest.We can talk to Him, we can ask
the Holy Spirit to come…We know the omnipotent/omnipresence is attributed to the Holy Trinity…I also know I can physically communicate with other saints here on earth to pray for me just like Paul ask for prayer…I honestly don’t know if the great cloud of witnesses can
be contacted outside of this realm…There were martyrs during the writing of the NT you would think , say Paul sharing how we could contact Steven now that his spirit moved to heaven’s realm…I know for sure my prayers from this realm are heard by the Holy Trinity
so I’ll just stick with the awesome privilege of being able to boldly approach the Throne.
 
That’s a good question.

I mean, suppose you have two Protestants, Bill and Bob. They’ve grown up together, raised families together, gone to church together, and prayed together. They’re comfortable asking each other on a regular basis, “Friend, please pray with me.”

Then one day, Bill dies.

And Bob never asks Bill to pray with him again.

Is it fear of ‘presuming’ that Bill is in heaven? (Since most (not all) Protestants do not believe in purgatory, Bill is either in heaven or in hell. And since most (not all) Protestants do not believe in ‘soul sleep’, they believe that those in heaven are ‘aware’ or ‘living’)

Is it fear that even if Bill is in heaven, he can’t ‘hear’ the prayer, as if there is a hot line to Jesus only and nobody is ‘around’ when He takes calls?

Is it fear that BECAUSE Bill is in heaven with Jesus, that somehow talking to him “up there” might ‘take away attention from Jesus’ (even though there were no worries when they were both ‘on earth’ together.

And where is the Scripture that says those who are united with Christ are ‘unaware’ of what Christ is aware of? That those in heaven have no idea of what is going on seems refuted by Revelation speaking of a cloud of witnesses. How can one have witnesses unless they both hear and see what they witness to?

It puzzles me. It’s such a old practice, prayer to the saints, it was even found (written examples exist to this day) when Christians were being persecuted in the catacombs, before the Bible was even canon). . .I just can’t understand why anybody would (lacking any kind of Scriptural acceptance or any kind of historical precedent) decide to ignore Christian deposit of faith of some 1500 years and come up with the idea that those in Heaven are no longer ‘aware’ of us. . .
 
A couple thoughts
Code:
1. The scriptures seem to use the word 'saints' when the word means all good Christians. "When the saints go marching in...."

 2. There are so many saints - 10,000 is it? - and some have been dropped from the church calendar, some because they may be mythical, or at least with tales badly infected by myth.

 3. I watch the Lords from time to time on EWTN. Many of their stories about saints - forgive me - seem far-fetched, to put it mildly, more paganish than Christian. 

 4. This is not only true of saints from years, even centuries ago. I have made a bit of a study of Padre Pio, how he is said to have biocated, levitated, etc. Yes, this is possible, of course, as God can do anything, but I find it hard to believe, and the evidence seems thin. Sorry.

 5. Miracles performed by saints? I guess I have a problem with that whole concept, It sounds as though if you pray to a saint he will become a lobbyist for you with God/Christ, and because of his intercession that favor (miracle) will be granted. Why do I have trouble with that? There are pentecostal and various other evangelists who every day claim that through them 'miracles are performed' because they are 'anointed' etc. Do we accept their claims, too? 

 6. This business of a saint for just about every cause, occupation, country, etc. It also gives me problems. Gosh, I asked St. Anthony of Padua for help to find lost items many times, and he often doesn't help. Why is that? Have I been bad? Is he asleep? Yet, when we do find the lost item we give him the credit. A bit of inconsistency there?

 7. If you believe everything the Church says or claims, this should not be a problem for you. But for those of us with a somewhat skeptical mind, who want our religious faith to be reasonable and in accord with science, hm - the whole 'saint' system sounds like a leftover from more primitive times when most Christians also believed that demons caused disease, that sinners could spend eternity in the fires of hell, and that the earth was flat as well as the center of the universe. In reading the Church Fathers, many believed all that. People know better today. We have microscopes and telescopes such as our ancestors never dreamed of.    

  But to each his/her own. I believe in a big-tent Christianity where diverse views are permitted. When we get to the world-to-come my guess is that all of us have been way off base. Our finite minds are quite amazing - consider the invention of the IPod, for example. - but not amazing enough to fathom those deep mysteries that surround us.

  God bless everybody.
 
A couple thoughts
Code:
1. The scriptures seem to use the word 'saints' when the word means all good Christians. "When the saints go marching in...."

 2. There are so many saints - 10,000 is it? - and some have been dropped from the church calendar, some because they may be mythical, or at least with tales badly infected by myth.

 3. I watch the Lords from time to time on EWTN. Many of their stories about saints - forgive me - seem far-fetched, to put it mildly, more paganish than Christian. 

 4. This is not only true of saints from years, even centuries ago. I have made a bit of a study of Padre Pio, how he is said to have biocated, levitated, etc. Yes, this is possible, of course, as God can do anything, but I find it hard to believe, and the evidence seems thin. Sorry.

 5. Miracles performed by saints? I guess I have a problem with that whole concept, It sounds as though if you pray to a saint he will become a lobbyist for you with God/Christ, and because of his intercession that favor (miracle) will be granted. Why do I have trouble with that? There are pentecostal and various other evangelists who every day claim that through them 'miracles are performed' because they are 'anointed' etc. Do we accept their claims, too? 

 6. This business of a saint for just about every cause, occupation, country, etc. It also gives me problems. Gosh, I asked St. Anthony of Padua for help to find lost items many times, and he often doesn't help. Why is that? Have I been bad? Is he asleep? Yet, when we do find the lost item we give him the credit. A bit of inconsistency there?

 7. If you believe everything the Church says or claims, this should not be a problem for you. But for those of us with a somewhat skeptical mind, who want our religious faith to be reasonable and in accord with science, hm - the whole 'saint' system sounds like a leftover from more primitive times when most Christians also believed that demons caused disease, that sinners could spend eternity in the fires of hell, and that the earth was flat as well as the center of the universe. In reading the Church Fathers, many believed all that. People know better today. We have microscopes and telescopes such as our ancestors never dreamed of.    

  But to each his/her own. I believe in a big-tent Christianity where diverse views are permitted. When we get to the world-to-come my guess is that all of us have been way off base. Our finite minds are quite amazing - consider the invention of the IPod, for example. - but not amazing enough to fathom those deep mysteries that surround us.

  God bless everybody.
Got anything reasonable besides unwarranted bias presuppositions that only denigrate Christ’s Church?
 
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