Why don't Protestants believe in purgatory?

[SyroMalankara]

Yea I know that part in the Catechism. I am maybe one of the few Protestants who can quote from it if you wish.

What for? I’m already Catholic, and you know what’s in it. If you want to quote it to add weight to a hypothesis, I’m all eyes. If not, why bother - the same goes for quoting Bible verses without saying the purpose or theory you are expanding upon.

 

[MichaelP3]

MichaelP3 #231
It is not only very interesting, it is the reality. It is not “just unthinkable”; it could not be otherwise. We are not “saved” by Christ’s suffering and death on the cross, but we are REDEEMED, and for salvation we have to work that out in fear and trembling.

My quoted translation is in the Catholic New American Bible, and in the *New King James Version *edited by the Protestant Dr Robert H Schuller. My old *Holy Bible *of 1953 by the (Catholic) Confraternity of Christian Doctrine also contains the same “lacking” in Col 1:24.

The crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus has REDEEMED us from our fallen state in which heaven had been closed, but our SALVATION depends upon our cooperation with His saving Grace.

This wallowing in self-interpretation always leads to error.

What is lacking is our co-operation. That is precisely why **St Paul teaches: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12). **We don’t achieve salvation in one fell swoop by accepting Christ as our personal saviour as some are misled to feel. St Paul knows very well what he is teaching:

So, St Paul:
“But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

“All, of us have a scrutiny to undergo before Christ’s judgment-seat, for each to reap what his mortal life has earned, good or ill, according to his deeds.” (2 Cor 5:10).

Again, very interesting. But I myself am very cautious to walk this path. I can’t see any scripture proving purgatory but rather you trying to say our God is incomplete. This IS unthinkable.

Rom 4:2
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Call me wrong for believing and trusting in God. I won’t even think to say what God thinks and does. God is not bound by the coding of a game.

And the Gates being closed would be even another subject in a thread I have much to say about.

And saying personal interpretation to a person who went through every possible confession and belief system of every major Church is a bit unfair. I really tried to see what makes sense. And purgatory doesn’t. Our God is pure and eternal and powerful. I trust Him.

But then again, I guess we are diverging from purgatory and going into “once saved always saved” and that was not the original question.

God Bless

 

[MichaelP3]

What for? I’m already Catholic, and you know what’s in it. If you want to quote it to add weight to a hypothesis, I’m all eyes. If not, why bother - the same goes for quoting Bible verses without saying the purpose or theory you are expanding upon.

This made me think of the one debate I watched with James White, he said, “I can refute you by only quoting Catholic sources”.

Extraordinary man.

Point is, if you ever watch these debates, it mainly revolves around the Protestant only using Catholic sources to poke holes in the other’s argument.

 

[SyroMalankara]

This made me think of the one debate I watched with James White, he said, “I can refute you by only quoting Catholic sources”.

Extraordinary man.

Point is, if you ever watch these debates, it mainly revolves around the Protestant only using Catholic sources to poke holes in the other’s argument.

James White’s tactics and methods are not looked upon favorably by many theologians. He’s an apologist, not a historian or theologian. He does drive-bys with his mistatements and is not at all considered reputable by many.

 

[SyroMalankara]

This made me think of the one debate I watched with James White, he said, “I can refute you by only quoting Catholic sources”.

Extraordinary man.

Point is, if you ever watch these debates, it mainly revolves around the Protestant only using Catholic sources to poke holes in the other’s argument.

Did any Christians in the early Church pray for their deceased? Yes or no.

There’s your answer.

 

[MichaelP3]

James White’s tactics and methods are not looked upon favorably by many theologians. He’s an apologist, not a historian or theologian. He does drive-bys with his mistatements and is not at all considered reputable by many.

Interesting statement. Who would this many be? I don’t see any facts?

And this is a guy who only uses an official Greek Bible in Greek when going to debates?

 

[MichaelP3]

Did any Christians in the early Church pray for their deceased? Yes or no.

There’s your answer.

Quick answer is no. There is absolutely no proof of this, except the belief that Rome said so.

 

[JustaServant]

Quick answer is no. There is absolutely no proof of this, except the belief that Rome said so.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

Scripture

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

continued…

 

[JustaServant]

Quick answer is no. There is absolutely no proof of this, except the belief that Rome said so.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

continued…

 

[JustaServant]

Quick answer is no. There is absolutely no proof of this, except the belief that Rome said so.

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Quick answer is no. There is absolutely no proof of this, except the belief that Rome said so.

My rebuttal. No student of history would make such an absurd statement. ALL Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, many Anglicans, some Lutherans and others pray for the dead. The Oriental Orthodox separated from Rome by 451, the Assyrian Church between 410 and 431. Why would they continue when they’ve rejected Roman authority if it was solely because “Rome said so”??!

Tertullian of Carthage (200AD) :We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death or their birth into eternal life]." (The Crown 3:3 [c. AD 211] or ANF III:94)

“A woman, after the death of her husband…prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice.” (Monogamy 10:1:2 [c. AD 216] or ANF III:66-67)

St. Ephrem of Syria (300s):

“Lay me not with sweet spices: for this honour avails me not; Nor yet incense and perfumes: for the honour benefits me not. Burn sweet spices in the Holy Place: and me, even me, conduct to the grave with prayer. Give ye incense to God: and over me send up hymns. Instead of perfumes of spices: in prayer make remembrance of me.” (His Testament [c. ante AD 373] or NPNF2 XIII:135)

 

[Vico]

it was the Catholic Church that would open the door, for money had been used against the poor for the manipulation of religion. Indulgences were listed as time off from purgatory. Luther believed that purgatory was not an actual fact but a place created by the Catholic Church for the gain of money. Catholics believe that Purgatory is a place that a believer goes so he can be purified to enter heaven. Indulgences were sold in the 16th Century of the church to help build St. Peter Basilica in Rome.

Re: “listed as time off from purgatory”, The day or years given were not time in purgatory but rather the equivalent of penance that was prescribed for sins as satisfaction after absolution of the repentant person that had received the Sacrament of Penance.

 

[twf]

Quick answer is no. There is absolutely no proof of this, except the belief that Rome said so.

Absurd. Even a secular historian with no Christian beliefs whatsoever would acknowledge that the early Christians, like the Jews, prayed for the dead. SyroMalankara provided some examples from the testimony of the Fathers. For me it speaks volumes that not only Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy pray for the dead, but also the Assyrians, the Christian tradition of the Persian Empire that hasn’t been in communion with Rome since the 5th century and was always beyond the borders of the Roman Empire.

 

[MichaelP3]

Absurd. Even a secular historian with no Christian beliefs whatsoever would acknowledge that the early Christians, like the Jews, prayed for the dead. SyroMalankara provided some examples from the testimony of the Fathers. For me it speaks volumes that not only Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy pray for the dead, but also the Assyrians, the Christian tradition of the Persian Empire that hasn’t been in communion with Rome since the 5th century and was always beyond the borders of the Roman Empire.

Do these forums always get this heated when someone says something you don’t like or just not agree with? Just asking out of curiosity.

 

[twf]

Do these forums always get this heated when someone says something you don’t like or just not agree with? Just asking out of curiosity.

Not heated - just emphatic.
I had mentioned the testimony of the ancient non-Latin churches a couple pages back as well.

 

[MichaelP3]

But I think I should end it here. The replies I’m getting are bordering on personal attacks and that’s an area i would like to avoid.

Here is the original question

I just don’t get it? Who is to say that we are even worthy of entering the kingdom of heaven, with our Perfect Heavenly Father? How dare anyone say and assume that we are going to heaven after we die, how are Protestants so certain? You have to be literally perfect to enter heaven, how are Protestants so sure they don’t need purgatory? Purgatory just makes perfect sense.

I think I answered it to a very great extent as to why Protestants believe it. Whether we are wrong or anything would be a different debate.

 

[Peter_J]

Do these forums always get this heated when someone says something you don’t like or just not agree with? Just asking out of curiosity.

Ya can’t really generalize about a forum this large and diverse. (And if we on the “Non-Catholic Religions” section aren’t interesting enough for you, you could always visit the “Traditionalist” section. )

 

[MichaelP3]

Ya can’t really generalize about a forum this large and diverse. (And if we on the “Non-Catholic Religions” section aren’t interesting enough for you, you could always visit the “Traditionalist” section. )

Yea I get you. After all I am in the minority here

Yea guess that’s an idea. I’m really just trying to state a view as the question asked. You know, constructive debate. I would hope nobody is trying to convince anyone, just pure thought sharing.

 

[GKC]

Ya can’t really generalize about a forum this large and diverse. (And if we on the “Non-Catholic Religions” section aren’t interesting enough for you, you could always visit the “Traditionalist” section. )

Or maybe try Fish Eaters. Never gets heated there.

 

[Gorgias]

I’m really just trying to state a view as the question asked. You know, constructive debate. I would hope nobody is trying to convince anyone, just pure thought sharing.

And, in a way, that’s what happened. Not the multiple-post barrage of Scripture quotations, mind you (after all, they didn’t really address your assertion that there was no evidence that, in the early Church, no one prayed for the dead), but the two posts that refuted your assertion with historical evidence. Those certainly looked like “constructive debate” – you made a claim, and the claim was rebutted.