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Techno2000
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The people in Hell are “absent from the body” are they present with the Lord ?
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HelenRose
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She had a miscarriage and you told her that her beliefs were wrong. There is a time and place for theological discussion but this wasn’t it. She showed remarkable restraint in not kicking you in the shins.
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spedteacherita
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I looked and searched in the Catholic Encyclopedia for this info. Do you have a link to this? I’d like to read more about it.
Thanks,
Rita
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Techno2000
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9 The woman said, “Why are you trying to trick me and get me killed? You know King Saul has gotten rid of everyone who talks to the spirits of the dead!”
10 Saul replied, “I swear by the living Lord that nothing will happen to you because of this.”
11 “Who do you want me to bring up?” she asked.
“Bring up the ghost of Samuel,” he answered.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed. Then she turned to Saul and said, “You’ve tricked me! You’re the king!”
13 “Don’t be afraid,” Saul replied. “Just tell me what you see.”
She answered,** “I see a spirit rising up out of the ground.”**
1 Samuel 28
There is more, but a have look them up again .
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Techno2000
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ARTICLE 5
“HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN”
631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles’ Creed confesses in the same article Christ’s descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:
Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477
Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell
632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483
634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."48
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
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Techno2000
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305
CHAPTER LIX
A Detached Account of the Descent into Hell
Code:
WHEN Jesus, after uttering a loud cry, expired, I saw his heavenly soul under the form of a bright meteor pierce the earth at the foot of the Cross, accompanied by the angel Gabriel and many other angels. His Divine nature continued united to his soul as well as to his body, which still remained hanging upon the Cross, but I cannot explain how this was, although I saw it plainly in my own mind. The place into which the soul of Jesus entered was divided into three parts, which appeared to me like three worlds; and I felt that they were round, and that each division was separated from the other by a hemisphere.
I beheld a bright and beautiful space opposite to Limbo; it was enamelled with flowers, delicious breezes wafted through it; and many souls were placed there before being admitted into Heaven after their deliverance from Purgatory. Limbo, the place where the souls were waiting for the Redemption, was divided into different compartments, and encompassed by a thick foggy atmosphere. Our Lord appeared radiant with light and surrounded by angels, who conducted him triumphantly between two of these compartments; the one on the left containing the patriarchs who lived before the time of Abraham, and that on the right those who lived between the days of Abraham and St. John Baptist. These souls did not at first recognise Jesus, but were filled nevertheless with sensations of joy and hope. There was not a spot in those narrow confines which did not, as it were, dilate with feelings of happiness. The passage of Jesus might be compared to the wafting of a breath of air, to a sudden flash of light, or to a shower of vivifying dew, but it was swift as a whirlwind. After passing through the two compartments, he reached a dark spot in which Adam and Eve were standing; he spoke to them, they prostrated and adored him in a perfect ecstasy of joy, and they immediately joined the band of angels, and accompanied our Lord to the compartment on the left, which contained the patriarchs who lived before Abraham. This compartment was a species of Purgatory, and a few evil spirits were wandering about among the souls and endeavouring to fill them with anxiety and alarm. The entrance through a species of door was closed, but the angels rapped, and I thought I heard them say, ‘Open these doors.’ When Jesus entered in triumph the demons dispersed, crying out at the same time, ‘What is there between thee and us? What art thou come to do here? Wilt thou crucify us likewise?’ The angels hunted them away, having first chained them. The poor souls confined in this place had only a slight presentiment and vague idea of the presence of Jesus; but the moment he told them that it was he himself, they burst out into acclamations of joy, and welcomed him with hymns of rapture and delight. The soul of our Lord then wended its way to the right, towards that part which really constituted Limbo; and there he met the soul of the good thief which angels were carrying to Abraham’s bosom, as also that of the bad thief being dragged by demons into Hell. Our Lord addressed a few words to both, and then entered Abraham’s bosom, accompanied by numerous angels and holy souls, and also by those demons who had been chained and expelled from the compartment.
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PJM
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TRUE and FAR more likely MANY years. We simply have no true [good] idea of just how serious sins is to God
That is precisely Why God in His Mercy Instituted the 7 Sacraments
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Peter_J
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Not trying to get off track, but FWIW I’ve never been able to comprehend why so many posters (not all Lutheran, naturally) on CAF are so very concerned about what the 1914 Catholic Encyclopedia said.
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Marty100
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No Biblical basis for Purgatory.
Plenty for Blessed Assurance:
Romans 10:9 because[a] if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast.
Acts 2:21
Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Acts 2:47
praising God and having the goodwill of all the people. And day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.
Acts 16:31
They answered, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’
Romans 8:24
For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what is seen?
These examples go on and on.
ohn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Plenty for Blessed Assurance:
Romans 10:9 because[a] if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast.
Acts 2:21
Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Acts 2:47
praising God and having the goodwill of all the people. And day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.
Acts 16:31
They answered, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’
Romans 8:24
For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what is seen?
These examples go on and on.
ohn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
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spedteacherita
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Well, we’re asked to search out answers - and, actually, this was the first time I tried looking in it!
Anyways…it really didn’t clear up my questions…
I’m hanging with Marty as to no purgatory until, and if, I’m ever convinced.
Thanks, all for your answers.
Blessings,
Rita
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Techno2000
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But, there was a Abraham’s Bosom for sure, Right ?Well, we’re asked to search out answers - and, actually, this was the first time I tried looking in it!
Anyways…it really didn’t clear up my questions…
I’m hanging with Marty as to no purgatory until, and if, I’m ever convinced.
Thanks, all for your answers.
Blessings,
Rita
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PJM
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Please read POSTWell, we’re asked to search out answers - and, actually, this was the first time I tried looking in it!
Anyways…it really didn’t clear up my questions…
I’m hanging with Marty as to no purgatory until, and if, I’m ever convinced.
Thanks, all for your answers.
Blessings,
Rita
92,93,94,95,96 It’s a lot of information BUT it ought to clear up for you you’re misconceptions on Purgatory IF you really wish to know it?
God Bless you,
Patrick
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PJM
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My friend you too are misinformed:
Please read post #92,93,94,95, & 96 IF you really want to know the truth.
My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible? Which BTW is a Catholic Book.
Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another
Verse, passage or teaching:
Were this even the slightest possibility;[it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or lean Christ Faith”
2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
[Douay explanation]
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes
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Techno2000
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The people in Purgatory are saved what’s your point ?
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twf
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According to Catholic teaching, those in purgatory ARE assured salvation. Every single one of them. Purgatory Is An action of Christ. It is He who purifies us
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Reuben_J
Guest
Agreed. This is right from the mouth of my Catholic catechism teacher.
Agreed. Right from my catechism teacher note book.
My catechism teacher did not phrase it this way. He said, “God mercy saves us even when we sin and have not repented of it perfectly”.
His Catholic Bible actually mentioned about fire. It reads “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
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Abu
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.
The only reason for that assumption is that the Church which Christ founded on Peter has been rejected.
The Bible which She has produced and guaranteed to be free from error states unequivocally that “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” [2 Maccabees 12:46]
That means unforgiven venial sins for which one has to undergo Purgatory to get to heaven. The failure lies in not having the complete Catholic Bible.
First, Our Lord had to redeem us from the effects of Original Sin which had closed heaven, but was opened by Him for us
Then, for our salvation, what is needed still is what we can and should suffer with Him; have to suffer, and offer supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings as coredeemers (1 Tim 2:5).
It is St. Paul, who wrote: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience. [Frank Sheed, *Christ In Eclipse, p 105-7].
So the real Bible as authenticated by the Catholic Church is replete with further evidence for Purgatory, here are a few:
- Mt 12:32: Our Blessed Lord Himself: “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” “The age to come’ means life after death, so Our Lord is clear – there ARE other sins that can be pardoned after death. We see also that the Lord knew that His Jewish listeners knew what He meant by forgiveness I the next life.
- Then follows Mt 12:36: “on the day of judgment, men will render account for every careless word they utter.” “Careless words” don’t merit Hell, but there will be a penalty which takes place in the Purgatory assigned for that.
- Mt 5:21-6: Christ warns of the coming judgment, and in His parable emphasises “put in prison….you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.” So paid here, or hereafter where the detention is temporary that can be neither heaven or hell – but Purgatory.
- 2 Tim 1:16-18: St Paul prays for the house hold of his helper Onesiphorus, then for Onesiphorus himself: “may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day.”
Another example of Purgatory in St Paul’s prayer for the dead.
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patmiron
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eazyduzit
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, p 105-7].
So the real Bible as authenticated by the Catholic Church is replete with further evidence for Purgatory, here are a few:
- Mt 12:32: Our Blessed Lord Himself: “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” “The age to come’ means life after death, so Our Lord is clear – there ARE other sins that can be pardoned after death. We see also that the Lord knew that His Jewish listeners knew what He meant by forgiveness I the next life.
- Then follows Mt 12:36: “on the day of judgment, men will render account for every careless word they utter.” “Careless words” don’t merit Hell, but there will be a penalty which takes place in the Purgatory assigned for that.
- Mt 5:21-6: Christ warns of the coming judgment, and in His parable emphasises “put in prison….you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.” So paid here, or hereafter where the detention is temporary that can be neither heaven or hell – but Purgatory.
- 2 Tim 1:16-18: St Paul prays for the house hold of his helper Onesiphorus, then for Onesiphorus himself: “may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day.”
Another example of Purgatory in St Paul’s prayer for the dead.
Thank you for responding to my post, Abu, but I believe you are misinformed.
Your failure lies isolating parts of scripture to prove your theology, rather than including all of what the word is saying and letting that form your theology, or in this case, hamartiology.
The passage in Maccabees speaks of being freed from sins, not from a place. Aside from this, the sin committed was obviously much more serious than venial for God struck them dead on account of it! So it could not possibly have merited purgatory in any case. Thus, the passage has nothing to do with purgatory.
No one, Abu, can act as a co-redeemer with Christ. This is anti-biblical. Heb1:3 testifies, “…when He had BY HIMSELF purged our sins, sat down…” and that means all sins for all time. Second, Heb9:22 states, “…and without shedding of blood is no remission.” And this blood must be pure, not of an earthly father descended from Adam. You do not qualify.
In Mt. 12, the “age to come” does not refer to your death. It is a period in time. There is no “age” in heaven for there is no time. We are currently in the age of grace. The next age to come is the Kingdom age or Millennial Kingdom. Purgatory is concurrent with the present age as defined by the CC.
Mt. 5 speaks only of an earthly prison. There is always a chance that one may be released from an earthly prison if you have something to pay with, but as stated before, we have nothing to pay with when it comes to the indebtedness of sin before God.Indeed, we can repay a fellow man for a fault, but not God. We are at the mercy of the savior.
Again, you use Mt 12:36 to prove what you have already decided is true without even looking at the next verse which explains, “For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” This could not refer to purgatory unless you define purgatory as the place of the condemned which it is not, according to the CCC. Rather, it is for those who are on the way to heaven.
In 2Tim1:16 Paul is praying for the household of Onesiphoros or for household salvation, just as in Acts 16:32. In v.18 he prays for mercy “in that day” which always refers to the second coming and the events surrounding it. The church believed that the tribulation could occur in their lifetime, so this is more likely what the prayer refers to. In any event, purgatory is to terminate at the second coming according to the CCC. So this cannot refer to purgatory.
Have a great day Abu!
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