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Techno2000
Guest
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is** lacking** of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church; Colossians 1:24
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eazyduzit
Guest
We vigorously deny purgatory and any man-made efforts to cleanse sins. Fire and water have no power to cleanse. Onlly the blood of Jesus can. It is evident that those in heaven have been washed in the blood. Rev.1:5, 5:9, 7:14. 1Jn 1:7 says that the blood cleanses from ALL sin, if we walk in the light or the truth. According to Heb.10:2, we have been so purified that we should have no more conscience of sin. In v.10 we are sanctified or made holy by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. We see purgatory as a denial of the effectiveness of Christ’s perfect sacrifice. We do not see that purgatory and all human effort are giving any credit or glory to Christ. It is all about faith in Jesus Christ.
Shalom,
Jerry
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SAVINGRACE
Guest
Purgatory is not a second chance and Purgatory is not a third place. Purgatory has nothing to do with ones justification or salvation. Those in Purgatory are justified; they are saved. Think of Purgatory as the Holy Hospital of Heaven.
Purgatory has to do with ones personal holiness and the burning away of any remaining
self-love. Read Revelation 21:27.
It refers to a temporary state of purification for those who have died in a state of grace but die with lingering imperfections. (venial sins, earthly attachments, self-love, self-will, etc.)
t’s true that the word Purgatory doesn’t appear in the Bible (neither do the words Trinity, Bible or Incarnation).
SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR PURGATORY
The doctrine of the final purification of the elect, apart from Heaven or Hell, is clearly taught in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
2 Samuel 12:13-14
David, though forgiven, is still punished for sin.
Matthew 5:25-26
“You will be thrown into prison and not be released until you have paid the last penny.”
Matthew 5:48
Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. (Perfection is to be strived for on earth.)
Matthew 12:32
Sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age, or the next.
Matthew 12:36
You will have to account for every idle word on judgment day.
1 Corinthians 3:10-16
“If someone’s work is burned … the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”
1 Corinthians 15:29-30
Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead.
2 Timothy 1:16-18
St. Paul prays - asks that God have mercy on his dead friend, Onesiphorus.
Hebrews 12:14
Strive for that holiness without which one cannot see God.
Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.
James 1:14-15
When sin reaches maturity it reaches death.
James 3:2
We all fall short in many respects.
1 Peter 3:18-20 to 1 Peter 4:6
Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.
1 John 5:16-17
Distinction made between deadly sins and one that are not deadly.
Revelation 21:27
Nothing unclean will be allowed to enter into Heaven.
2 Maccabees 12:39-45
“Next day, they came to find Judas (since the necessity was by now urgent) to have the bodies of the fallen taken up and laid to rest among their relatives in their ancestral tombs. But when they found on each of the dead men, under their tunics, objects dedicated to the idols of Jamnia, which the Law prohibits to Jews, it became clear to everyone that this was why these men had lost their lives. All then blessed the ways of the Lord, the upright judge who brings hidden things to light, and gave themselves to prayer, begging that the sin committed might be completely forgiven. Next, the valiant Judas urged the soldiers to keep themselves free from all sin, having seen with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen; after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmas, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an action altogether fine and noble, prompted by his belief in the resurrection. For had he not expected the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead, whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. Hence, he had this expiatory sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin.”
Note: Though this book was rejected by the Protestant reformers and therefore is not in Protestant Bibles, one can not ignore the historical reality of this event and the reality of the words which were said.
See also:
Leviticus 26:41-43, Isaiah 4:4, Isaiah 6:5-7, Isaiah 33:11-14, Micah 7:8-9, Zechariah 9:11, Malachi 3:2-4, Matthew 18:34ff, Luke 12:58ff, Luke 16:19-31, 2 Corinthians 5:10,
2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 4:8-10, Philippians 2:10-11, 1 Peter 4:6, Revelation 5:3, 13
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JRRTFAN
Guest
This baffled me for years until Dr. David Anders (EWTN) opened my eyes. Many, if not all Evangelical Protestants, believe in a penal substitutionary atonement. That is, rather than a pure offering, freely given by the Son to the Father on behalf of humanity, Jesus was punished by God. He was then damned to hell for 3 days on our behalf, fully reprobated. In this act God the Father poured out all his anger on Jesus and therefore has none left for the “saved”. Hence no need for Purgatory.
It’s a heresy from Calvin and might well be classified as goofy for anyone who reads the Bible in context.
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PJM
Guest
Because a great many of them missed Peter’s advice:
Acts Of Apostles 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men.
They presume [led by by others who too have presumed] that they can didtate to God exactly He must save them:shrug:
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Reuben_J
Guest
I honestly want to see more argument to support that purgatory is not in the Bible. I am yet to be convinced that it is not in the Bible. The fact the word ‘purgatory’ is not mentioned in the Bible does not mean the concept is not there. So that argument alone is not suffice to rebut its Biblical concept. Similarly too we can apply to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity which is not in the Bible either.
I am trying not to see this through a Catholic’s lens but even then I still find the argument for purgatory being explained in the Bible being more convincing rather than being against.
I am trying not to see this through a Catholic’s lens but even then I still find the argument for purgatory being explained in the Bible being more convincing rather than being against.
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guanophore
Guest
It is likely you are denying a concept that is a fantasy in the first place. Most people that take exception to purgatory don’t understand the teaching.
On a physical plane they do, so God uses them as metaphors of what occurs spiritually. God works through water to wash away sins in baptism.
Why did Jesus put mud on the eyes of the blind man? We don’t believe mud has any healing powers…
God works through these elements to bring His grace and healing to us. But we don’t think that the “fire” of purgatory is a literal physical fire. It is the soul that is being cleansed, and it is a spiritual event.
51Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable I Cor. 15
Nothing unclean can enter heaven, so we all must be changed before we can enter. This is the purgation - the cleansing.
I think there might be a misunderstanding about this verse. Being purified makes us much more conscious of our sins.
I think perhaps you are mixing the meanings of holy and sanctified. In this sense, we are holy and sanctified meaning we are consecrated and set aside for a certain use, just as vessels in the temple were sanctified. They were not to be used for any other purpose. It does not mean that we have been made perfect. Yes, it is His once for all sacrifice that makes this possible.
This is what I meant about not understanding the concept. The only reason we are able to be purged and made fit for heaven is BECAUSE of Christ’s perfect sacrifice.
Definitely it is all about faith in Jesus.
But “all human effort”? Surely you cannot be speaking of our efforts walking in the Spirit?!
1If any one **purifies himself **from what is ignoble, then he will be a vessel for noble use, consecrated and useful to the master of the house, ready for any good work. 22So shun youthful passions and aim at righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call upon the Lord from a pure heart. 23*Have nothing to do with stupid, senseless controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.2 Timothy 2:21–23
2Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 1 John 3:2–3
These scriptures make it clear that we have a part in purifying ourselves. We are to make certain choices to keep our vessel consecrated (holy).
We are not yet now like we shall be, for we still have the carnal nature, which must be cleansed.
These verses are given in the imperative mode (directives):
7Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (I Cor. 5:70
1*Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God. (2 Cor. 7:1)
Draw near to God and he will draw near to you.* Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts,** you men of double mind. 9Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you. James 4:8
Now the Apostles clearly taught that we participate in our own cleansing and purification (we are not passive).
What you are saying seems to contradict these scriptures. You are saying it is not possible for us to cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, but the Apostle commands us to do just that.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
I’m not seeing any years off Purgatory on this card, where do you see it?
Maybe you can define “indulgence” for us, the Latin Catholic definition is this:
a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints
In other words - if one’s penance for say… adultery… was 7 years of not receiving Eucharist and praying before the Crucifix for forgiveness and maybe donating to a charity… one could pray that particular pray with all the necessary conditions and be back in full Communion with the Church.
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PJM
Guest
REPLY
MY [PJM] comments
1st the penance example above ** IMO is greatly exaggerated: NEVER would a priest exclude a informed practicing catholic [even a serious sinner] that was contrite from receiving Catholic Holy Communion BECAUSE it IS Jesus; who desires that all be saved; and would assist this CONTRITE person from sinning again through graces received in the Eucharist.
Nor would the priest LIKELY insist on a donation t charity. He MIGHT insist of some charitable acts; to off set the harm done to the Church and the families involved.**
Indulgence defied by Fr Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary
INDULGENCE. “The remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins forgiven as far as their guilt is concerned, which the follower of Christ with the proper dispositions and under certain determined conditions acquires through the intervention of the Church, which, as minister of the redemption, authoritatively dispenses and applies the treasury of the satisfaction won by Christ and the saints” (Pope Paul VI, Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences).
As originally understood, an indulgence was a mitigation of the severe canonical penances imposed on the faithful for grave sins. The term “indulgence” remained, however, even after these extreme penalties were discontinued. Yet until the Second Vatican Council, the norm for determining the effectiveness of an indulgenced practice was its relationship to the ancient canonical penances, as seen in the numbers, so many years or so many days, attached to every official listing of partial indulgences.
All this was changed by Pope Paul VI. From now on the measure of how efficacious an indulgenced work is depends on two things: the supernatural charity with which the indulgenced task is done, and the perfection of the task itself.
Another innovation is that partial and plenary indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of suffrage, asking God to remit their sufferings if they are still in purgatory"
God Bless you
P
PJM
Guest
A really GREAT post:thumbsup: Thanks
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adamhovey1988
Guest
I have an Anglican friend who had a miscarriage and I told her I would pray for her baby soul, and you know what? She didn’t have a problem with that, but she is also very high church she believes in transubstantiation does Gregorian chants and all that stuff. She had a little angry at me when I told her she had an invalid Eucharist but that’s alright. I labeled her Protestant in practice Catholic in belief which she tends to agree with. So at least some Protestants believe in purgatory and in fact I seem to recall CS Lewis believed in purgatory
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theropod
Guest
:dts:
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
Did you tell your friend that you thought her baby was in Purgatory? There is a huge difference between believing that we are able to pray for our dead and the belief that Purgatory even exists.
And about the fact that you told her that we Anglicans have an invalid Eucharist? Perhaps you might consider rephrasing it next time to say, ‘Our Church believes that your Eucharist is not valid.’ It is quite a bit less accusatory that way. And it also enables an Anglican, or Lutheran, or Old Catholic, to say something like, ‘Well, that’s too bad. We do.’
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Reuben_J
Guest
It is not in Catholic belief and teaching that unborn baby would be in purgatory.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
I understood that Limbo is not in the mix, although I certainly hear people talk about it as if it were. So what is the teaching on unborn babies? Mormons would send them back to Spirit World. You?
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Reuben_J
Guest
Off the record and in my own words, I’m using my phone now, they are in heaven. We celebrated the Feast of the Holy Innocence, those bsbies killed by Herod who hoped to killed Jesus among them. They were given saints status and thus allocated feast day in the Catholic liturgy calendar. By virtue of that, they were considered to be in heaven, and that likely applies to all babies. The details of this teaching maybe is more complicated . I’m unable to look it for you now.
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GKC
Guest
He did, in an Anglican fashion, as evidenced in his LETTERS TO MALCOLM and some of his personal letters…
And no Anglican should get upset that a RC believes what the RCC requires to be believed. Similarly, no RC should be agitated that an Anglican has another opinion on the matter (and the form, and the intent) of Apostolicae Curae.
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PJM
Guest
Why would a “lost BABY” be in purgatory? In Catholic beliefs?
God Bless you,
Patrick
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rnmvrck
Guest
Here is why I do not believe in Purgatory:
For me, Purgatory is not taught anywhere in the Bible(i.e., additional punishment after death for those who sins are already forgiven), and the notion that man can offer works of penance to pay for sins of others by lessening their pain and helping them get out (Catholic catechism) sooner is just not biblical. Purgatory was a big money maker for the Catholic Church as prayers for the dead and indulgencies were sold and actually a major cause for the reformation. The notion of purgatory is offensive to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 7:25-28, says it is impossible, and atonement is done by Jesus Christ who is the perfect substitute as man is not qualified and cannot add to what Jesus did on the cross.
Jesus Christ does the purifying and the atonement of ALL sin and He did it all as stated in John 19:30 “It is finished!” Our record of sin was cancelled out at the cross – where Jesus took on all sin – past, present, and future. There is no punishment or suffering after death for the Christian. Even in the OT the all the Israelites had to do was to look at the brass serpent on the pole to have all their sins forgiven. If sin has not been completely atoned for at the cross, then the death of Jesus was for nothing.
The notion of purgatory is a “works based” belief the man can do something to achieve heaven. Man cannot atone for sin. You will get rewards in heaven based upon your “works”, but “works has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation has to do with accepting the free gift of Jesus Christ, the only way to heaven. There is no sin that can be forgiven after death and the only we get to heaven is because we have an advocate, a Savior who took the hit for your sins and covers you with His blood. This is such a fundamental a belief of most Christians other than catholics.
God was ‘not angry” that His son as fully man was killed by man. This was part of God’s plan from the beginning. The death of Jesus was an achievement, not a tragedy. The Bible is a love story written in blood on a cross some 2,000 years ago.
God has an “integrated” plan that is unveiled through the inspired word of God. The apostles never spoke of a third place other than heaven or hell. Purgatory is based upon catholic “sacred tradition” but I believe according to Timothy that the Bible is “God- breathed, not tradition breathed. When I accepted Christ, changed my old ways, repented for my sins, I became the property of Jesus Christ, my name written in the Book of Life (and God does not have an eraser!).
Colossians 2:13
Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Colossians 2:13-14)
Although I only believe in the 66 books of the Bible, the verse in Maccabee’s that is often brought up has one big flaw. The sin committed was idolatry under the catholic view’ this is indeed an mortal sin in the eyes of God (i.e., worse sin to God) and they will be in hell, not purgatory, for this sin.
For me, Purgatory is not taught anywhere in the Bible(i.e., additional punishment after death for those who sins are already forgiven), and the notion that man can offer works of penance to pay for sins of others by lessening their pain and helping them get out (Catholic catechism) sooner is just not biblical. Purgatory was a big money maker for the Catholic Church as prayers for the dead and indulgencies were sold and actually a major cause for the reformation. The notion of purgatory is offensive to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 7:25-28, says it is impossible, and atonement is done by Jesus Christ who is the perfect substitute as man is not qualified and cannot add to what Jesus did on the cross.
Jesus Christ does the purifying and the atonement of ALL sin and He did it all as stated in John 19:30 “It is finished!” Our record of sin was cancelled out at the cross – where Jesus took on all sin – past, present, and future. There is no punishment or suffering after death for the Christian. Even in the OT the all the Israelites had to do was to look at the brass serpent on the pole to have all their sins forgiven. If sin has not been completely atoned for at the cross, then the death of Jesus was for nothing.
The notion of purgatory is a “works based” belief the man can do something to achieve heaven. Man cannot atone for sin. You will get rewards in heaven based upon your “works”, but “works has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation has to do with accepting the free gift of Jesus Christ, the only way to heaven. There is no sin that can be forgiven after death and the only we get to heaven is because we have an advocate, a Savior who took the hit for your sins and covers you with His blood. This is such a fundamental a belief of most Christians other than catholics.
God was ‘not angry” that His son as fully man was killed by man. This was part of God’s plan from the beginning. The death of Jesus was an achievement, not a tragedy. The Bible is a love story written in blood on a cross some 2,000 years ago.
God has an “integrated” plan that is unveiled through the inspired word of God. The apostles never spoke of a third place other than heaven or hell. Purgatory is based upon catholic “sacred tradition” but I believe according to Timothy that the Bible is “God- breathed, not tradition breathed. When I accepted Christ, changed my old ways, repented for my sins, I became the property of Jesus Christ, my name written in the Book of Life (and God does not have an eraser!).
Colossians 2:13
Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Colossians 2:13-14)
Although I only believe in the 66 books of the Bible, the verse in Maccabee’s that is often brought up has one big flaw. The sin committed was idolatry under the catholic view’ this is indeed an mortal sin in the eyes of God (i.e., worse sin to God) and they will be in hell, not purgatory, for this sin.
G
GKC
Guest
I predict some comments will follow.
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