Why don't Protestants believe in purgatory?

[JonNC]

And the reason NO Protestant" believes i “works” is that THEY do not understand what the TERM actually means to US Catholics;

WORKS FOR CATHOLICS MEANS CHARITY

NOTING MORE AND CERTAINLY NOTHING LESS:thumbsup:

SO Protestants hold that charity is NOT necessary

Continued Blessings Jon!

PJM

IN OTHER WORDS IT IS A ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TIME OF PURIFICATION BECAUSE ONLY SOULS THAT ARE “PERFECTED” ARE SUITABLE TO GOD AND GOD’S BEATIFIC VISION

PJM

I have no dispute regarding the need of cleansing. The document confirms this shared belief.
Why are you under the impression we do not believe in works?
Jon

 

[eazyduzit]

REALLY:shrug:

Bible

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible? Which BTW is a Catholic Book.

Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another
Verse, passage or teaching:
Were this even the slightest possibility;[it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or lean Christ Faith”

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
[Douay explanation]

[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes

GOD Bless you my friend!

PJM

Yes, “really” Patrick. No one in scripture was ever warned that they could not know God’s word for themselves. That is the reason that all have been given the HS. Peter, of course, warned that some misuse the word. In fact, Acts 17:11 encourages us that we can and should check the scripture to verify the truth of anyone’s message. Again, St John says But the anointing which ye have received of HIM [the HS is given so that we may know] abideth in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in Him."

The real reason for differences of interpretation is found in Ez. 14:4. It is explained that God answers a man “according to the multitude of his idols”. In other words, if you idolize certain men, that is, you place too much trust in them, that will cancel your anointing. You will not hear God. Let that not be the case with any of us. Your mind must be unhindered by what others have said if you want God’s (name removed by moderator)ut.That is why why we must question everything we hear unless and until the HS beareth witness. This is the teaching of scripture.

Have a great day Patrick

 

[patmiron]

I have no dispute regarding the need of cleansing. The document confirms this shared belief.
Why are you under the impression we do not believe in works?
Jon

Because of the numerous post replies that negate any type of WORKS as having any role in one’s salvation.

God Bless you Jon

PJM

 

[eazyduzit]

I have no dispute regarding the need of cleansing. The document confirms this shared belief.
Why are you under the impression we do not believe in works?
Jon

I believe in cleansing too, but not by works. Rev 1:5 explains that all those in heaven were washed clean by Christ in His own blood. All in heaven come by the blood, even those who will come through the great tribulation do not come by works or suffering, but only by the blood. (Rev.17:4)

Shalom,
Jerry

 

[patmiron]

Yes, “really” Patrick. No one in scripture was ever warned that they could not know God’s word for themselves. That is the reason that all have been given the HS. Peter, of course, warned that some misuse the word. In fact, Acts 17:11 encourages us that we can and should check the scripture to verify the truth of anyone’s message. Again, St John says But the anointing which ye have received of HIM [the HS is given so that we may know] abideth in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in Him."

The real reason for differences of interpretation is found in Ez. 14:4. It is explained that God answers a man “according to the multitude of his idols”. In other words, if you idolize certain men, that is, you place too much trust in them, that will cancel your anointing. You will not hear God. Let that not be the case with any of us. Your mind must be unhindered by what others have said if you want God’s (name removed by moderator)ut.That is why why we must question everything we hear unless and until the HS beareth witness. This is the teaching of scripture.

OK So you either can’t understand or reject 2 Peter 1: 19-21 which I shared with you.

How then do you choose to translate the following [please respond to each of them]

Mt 16:18 -19 "[18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven

Jn 17: 17-20 "[17] Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19] And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me"

Mt 28: 19-20 “[19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world”.

Have a great day Patrick

And you too my friend

Patrick aka PJM

 

[eazyduzit]

And the reason NO Protestant" believes i “works” is that THEY do not understand what the TERM actually means to US Catholics;

WORKS FOR CATHOLICS MEANS CHARITY

NOTING MORE AND CERTAINLY NOTHING LESS:thumbsup:

SO Protestants hold that charity is NOT necessary

Continued Blessings Jon!

PJM

IN OTHER WORDS IT IS A ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TIME OF PURIFICATION BECAUSE ONLY SOULS THAT ARE “PERFECTED” ARE SUITABLE TO GOD AND GOD’S BEATIFIC VISION

PJM

Our “Perfection” is the business of our Shepherd if we trust in HIM. Ps23 says " The Lord is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want". We shall not be left wanting for perfection. 1Cor.1:8 says “Who shall confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Jude 24 and Phil.1:6 also confirm this. This is what the weight of scripture is saying.

 

[Peter_J]

I believe in cleansing too, but not by works. Rev 1:5 explains that all those in heaven were washed clean by Christ in His own blood. All in heaven come by the blood, even those who will come through the great tribulation do not come by works or suffering, but only by the blood. (Rev.17:4)

Shalom,
Jerry

Hi eazyduzit. I’ll let JonNC speak for himself insofar as that post is a specific response to him. However, I don’t think that we Catholics are required to believe that purgatory’s cleansing is a matter of works. (Open to hearing that I’m wrong.)

 

[rinnie]

Besides, the salvation of those in the purgatorial state is entirely due to Christ’s incarnation, sacrifice and resurrection.

I think if people would see this, and understand that purgatory is more of a gift then a suffering they could see what a gift it is.

If anyone were to be honest with themselves, how many people truly feel the person that just died was indeed truly a Saint and ready to be with Christ at the moment of their death? Not many if any.

When we can make them see that purgatory is indeed a time of suffering, not because that person is paying for sin, because indeed Christ did that for us, but are getting cleansed of the lust of that sin.

For example if someone quits Alcohol, they can go for years without drinking, but how close are they everyday of slipping up. They will tell you one drink away from all if the years.

That is what Purgatory is, to never be one drink away, to be rid of the lust for sin altogether forever and ever.

Purgatory is the need for Christ and Christ only. If we could find a way to let them see purgatory is a gift instead of a punishment, they could understand more.

That is why it is purgatory, that FINAL Cleansing of the Soul that is to be deemed perfect.

 

[rinnie]

Hi eazyduzit. I’ll let JonNC speak for himself insofar as that post is a specific response to him. However, I don’t think that we Catholics are required to believe that purgatory’s cleansing is a matter of works. (Open to hearing that I’m wrong.)

I am not sure if I understand what you are saying, but I do believe that purgatory is indeed a matter of works, as repenting any sin.

But I believe what the works is, ridding oneself of the want of sin. Although it is a grace given to us freely from God, we must Use that grace, and using the grace given is a works.

But what I have been taught, that purgatory is deep suffering, because you see God face to face and want it so bad now that you have seen him, and the final cleansing no matter how long rather it be a second or years is the need for him now.

But you must not only be rid of the lust of sin, but of the (I like to say, the enjoyment that you had) also.

 

[Techno2000]

I am not sure if I understand what you are saying, but I do believe that purgatory is indeed a matter of works, as repenting any sin.

But I believe what the works is, ridding oneself of the want of sin. Although it is a grace given to us freely from God, we must Use that grace, and using the grace given is a works.

But what I have been taught, that purgatory is deep suffering, because you see God face to face and want it so bad now that you have seen him, and the final cleansing no matter how long rather it be a second or years is the need for him now.

But you must not only be rid of the lust of sin, but of the (I like to say, the enjoyment that you had) also.

That reminds me of Dante who said …unjust pleasure… must be paid by back with just pain.

 

[rinnie]

That reminds me of Dante who said …unjust pleasure… must be paid by back with just pain.

Kind of what scripture says you will not get out until you paid the last penny. You can’t get out of hell, it is eternal, eternal suffering, and there is no getting out of heaven, who would every want to, and if you made it there, nothing to be paid, its paid in full. So this has to be a middle place, and we call it Purgatory.

 

[rinnie]

Our “Perfection” is the business of our Shepherd if we trust in HIM. Ps23 says " The Lord is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want". We shall not be left wanting for perfection. 1Cor.1:8 says “Who shall confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Jude 24 and Phil.1:6 also confirm this. This is what the weight of scripture is saying.

It is not our wanting of perfection in the earthly way, it is a necessity that is given to God. You must be a Saint to enter heaven. And in order to be a Saint you must be perfect in goodness and thought.

If a person was not perfect in thoughts and words, how would you see then as a Saint?

 

[JonNC]

Because of the numerous post replies that negate any type of WORKS as having any role in one’s salvation.

God Bless you Jon

PJM

Just because someone does not believe works add to one’s salvation doesn’t mean they necessarily do not believe in works.
While Lutherans believe we are justified by grace along through faith along, we also describe good works as required, necessary, that we are bound to perform good works. Why? Because Christ commands them.
***“To think, ‘If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,’ is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith.”
*** - Luther

Failure to do works because faith alone justifies is to despise the Gospel!!

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I believe in cleansing too, but not by works. Rev 1:5 explains that all those in heaven were washed clean by Christ in His own blood. All in heaven come by the blood, even those who will come through the great tribulation do not come by works or suffering, but only by the blood. (Rev.17:4)

Shalom,
Jerry

Hi Jerry,
I would agree that the cleansing, the purging, is not the result of our works. In Spe Salvi, Pope Benedict says:

Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of
judgment. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns
us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during
our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this
encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies
salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful
transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgment we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy

The fire which purges is Christ Himself. What a moving explanation of something we as non-Catholics, in our various ways, have always been at least skeptical of. The moment of cleansing is His gaze, burning away all pretense, all falsehood.

Described in this way, and without regard to the surrounding practices, or the claim of an intermediate sate or place, I can agree with the idea of Purgatory if I can believe to be as Pope Benedict describes it here. This isn’t works. This is grace.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I am not sure if I understand what you are saying, but I do believe that purgatory is indeed a matter of works, as repenting any sin.

But I believe what the works is, ridding oneself of the want of sin. Although it is a grace given to us freely from God, we must Use that grace, and using the grace given is a works.

But what I have been taught, that purgatory is deep suffering, because you see God face to face and want it so bad now that you have seen him, and the final cleansing no matter how long rather it be a second or years is the need for him now.

But you must not only be rid of the lust of sin, but of the (I like to say, the enjoyment that you had) also.

No doubt that the moment of cleansing is a deep suffering, as our real, sinful selves are revealed before our eyes and stripped away by grace. That seems to be what Pope Benedict is saying.

But more importantly, my understanding of the CC teaching does not involve repentance once someone is in Purgatory, and that being in Purgatory already is evidence that we have received His grace, and have not rejected it.

In short, it seems to me that works are irrelevant in Purgatory.
But I may be wrong.

Jon

 

[Abu]

JonNC #175
In short, it seems to me that works are irrelevant in Purgatory.

Correct.

 

[jlhargus]

No doubt that the moment of cleansing is a deep suffering, as our real, sinful selves are revealed before our eyes and stripped away by grace. That seems to be what Pope Benedict is saying.

But more importantly, my understanding of the CC teaching does not involve repentance once someone is in Purgatory, and that being in Purgatory already is evidence that we have received His grace, and have not rejected it.

In short, it seems to me that works are irrelevant in Purgatory. But I may be wrong.
Jon

Aman Jon. Those in purgatory can do nothing to help themselves. Their purification can be aided by those on earth who pray and offer up their trials for them.

 

[eazyduzit]

It is not our wanting of perfection in the earthly way, it is a necessity that is given to God. You must be a Saint to enter heaven. And in order to be a Saint you must be perfect in goodness and thought.

If a person was not perfect in thoughts and words, how would you see then as a Saint?

The only way to be a true saint is by or through the blood of Jesus. There is NO other way.

 

[eazyduzit]

Hi Jerry,
I would agree that the cleansing, the purging, is not the result of our works. In Spe Salvi, Pope Benedict says:

The fire which purges is Christ Himself. What a moving explanation of something we as non-Catholics, in our various ways, have always been at least skeptical of. The moment of cleansing is His gaze, burning away all pretense, all falsehood.

Described in this way, and without regard to the surrounding practices, or the claim of an intermediate sate or place, I can agree with the idea of Purgatory if I can believe to be as Pope Benedict describes it here. This isn’t works. This is grace.

Jon

This is just about the most irrational and ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If Jesus himself can purge us with nothing but fire (which is cheap) then why did He ever agree to shed His most precious blood for us if He could purge our sin by another way???

 

[eazyduzit]

It is not our wanting of perfection in the earthly way, it is a necessity that is given to God. You must be a Saint to enter heaven. And in order to be a Saint you must be perfect in goodness and thought.

If a person was not perfect in thoughts and words, how would you see then as a Saint?

The answer is, you must see as God sees, and He looks at us in the spirit which is born anew and is given the righteousness of Christ. You can only have this righteousness by faith and as a free gift, it is not by works. Even the good works of a million lives couldn’t make a down payment on it. Now, we see in the flesh, but after death we will be in the spirit and what we truly are will be revealed. Of course there are differences in our final glory, but Rm.8:30 reveals that those whom He predestined and called, were justified and glorified. The “work” has already been accomplished.