Why don't Protestants believe in purgatory?

[eazyduzit]

Aman Jon. Those in purgatory can do nothing to help themselves. Their purification can be aided by those on earth who pray and offer up their trials for them.

Everyone seems to now agree that works are irrelevant in purgatory, but in the next sentence it is said that works done on earth are relevant in purgatory.

Are we just making this up as we go along?

 

[twf]

This is just about the most irrational and ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If Jesus himself can purge us with nothing but fire (which is cheap) then why did He ever agree to shed His most precious blood for us if He could purge our sin by another way???

Eazyduzit: Did you read my post - #122? I didn’t see you respond to it anywhere. Perhaps if you read that first you’ll understand better where some of us are coming from.
Have you ever been to a Catholic mass? If you have, you will know that Catholics focus on the shed blood of Christ perhaps more than any other denomination / tradition. The shed blood of Christ is EVERYTHING to us. We meditate it on day and night in our prayers and devotions. It is absolutely central. This can’t be disputed. Every single poster on this thread agrees 100% that we are cleansed by the blood of Christ. Everyone. No one has disputed this on any level.
Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that on judgment day Christ will walk up to you and literally, physically pour a cup of His blood on you? I doubt you do. You, like Catholics, believe that while it is Our Lord’s sacrifice that cleanses us, the effects of this sacrifice are applied to us through other means. In your theology when you said the sinner’s prayer and accepted Christ into your life, you believe He cleansed you…through His precious blood…yet He didn’t literally, physically come down from heaven and pour blood on you. Do you see where I"m going? Purgatory is an action of Christ…Christ cleansing the soul of His beloved of any impurities that remain after an imperfect life…but the source of that cleaning is His sacrifice on the cross. Read my original post (122) - it addresses the role of works rooted in the divine gift Christ won for us through His passion, death and resurrection.

 

[JonNC]

This is just about the most irrational and ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If Jesus himself can purge us with nothing but fire (which is cheap) then why did He ever agree to shed His most precious blood for us if He could purge our sin by another way???

Where was it said that it is, literally, fire?

"His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful
transformation “as through fire”.

As through fire indicates a metaphorical use of the term fire.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

This is just about the most irrational and ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If Jesus himself can purge us with nothing but fire (which is cheap) then why did He ever agree to shed His most precious blood for us if He could purge our sin by another way???

I think that’s the strangest thing I’ve ever heard you say. Who ever suggested that the “fire” could have taken the place of shedding his blood?

 

[patmiron]

Yes, “really” Patrick. No one in scripture was ever warned that they could not know God’s word for themselves. That is the reason that all have been given the HS. Peter, of course, warned that some misuse the word. In fact, Acts 17:11 encourages us that we can and should check the scripture to verify the truth of anyone’s message. Again, St John says But the anointing which ye have received of HIM [the HS is given so that we may know] abideth in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in Him."

The real reason for differences of interpretation is found in Ez. 14:4. It is explained that God answers a man “according to the multitude of his idols”. In other words, if you idolize certain men, that is, you place too much trust in them, that will cancel your anointing. You will not hear God. Let that not be the case with any of us. Your mind must be unhindered by what others have said if you want God’s (name removed by moderator)ut.That is why why we must question everything we hear unless and until the HS beareth witness. This is the teaching of scripture.

Have a great day Patrick

OK

So lets proceed from your reply.

You seem to have missed the importance of just how this lack of right understanding applies to you [meaning here Protestants in general; not personally]

How then can one explain that today’s RCC after 2,000 of being in existence has only 23 Branches; A:: OF WHICH accept the one single Founders Faith beliefs; whule Protestants after just short of 500 years have MANY thousands of DIFFERING sets of beliefs and churches; IF not due to the fact that GOD’s Wisdom is being withheld:shrug:

God Bless you; please pray about it

Patrick

 

[spedteacherita]

OK

So lets proceed from your reply.

You seem to have missed the importance of just how this lack of right understanding applies to you [meaning here Protestants in general; not personally]

How then can one explain that today’s RCC after 2,000 of being in existence has only 23 Branches; A:: OF WHICH accept the one single Founders Faith beliefs; whule Protestants after just short of 500 years have MANY thousands of DIFFERING sets of beliefs and churches; IF not due to the fact that GOD’s Wisdom is being withheld:shrug:

God Bless you; please pray about it

Patrick

My question, Patrick, is why did the RCC wait for 1850 and 1950 years to establish the Marian dogmas? Why wasn’t that important enough through tradition to have been established before?

Thanks, and God bless!

Rita

 

[twf]

My question, Patrick, is why did the RCC wait for 1850 and 1950 years to establish the Marian dogmas? Why wasn’t that important enough through tradition to have been established before?

Thanks, and God bless!

Rita

The core Marian dogma, Mary as Mother of God (Theotokos in the Greek), was solemnly defined by the Council of Ephesus in the 5th century. It was a response to the Nestorian heresy which emphasized the duality of Christ: Christ the man and Christ the God. The Catholic Church insisted that Christ is one person who is truly man and truly God, and thus to be mother of Christ is to be mother of God. The Fathers speak of Our Lady as the New Eve as early as the second century and the feast of her Assumption has been celebrated since ancient times. Our faith is not limited to dogmas…dogmas are defined when the Church feels a particular issue is being sufficiently challenged. But we are way off track - if you wish to discuss this issue I would recommend starting a new thread.

 

[Techno2000]

My question, Patrick, is why did the RCC wait for 1850 and 1950 years to establish the Marian dogmas? Why wasn’t that important enough through tradition to have been established before?

Thanks, and God bless!

Rita

Because the early Church had to firmly establish the Gospel ,and Jesus first, before they could introduce the mysteries of his Mother.

 

[spedteacherita]

But we are way off track - if you wish to discuss this issue I would recommend starting a new thread.

You are right, twf. I thought of that later and it was too late to delete my post. I get a question or thought in my head and I forget where the thread was supposed to be going.

Thanks to you and Techno for your answers! I will be pondering those as well as the other posts here.

God bless!

Rita

 

[eazyduzit]

What then do you make of Col. 1:24? Certainly Our Lord merited infinite grace through His passion, death, and resurrection. The cross, the shedding of Our Lord’s most Precious Blood, is all-sufficient for our salvation. Yet the gift of salvation Our Lord won for us must be mediating to each of us in time and space. Christ could have simply declared all men everywhere and always saved…but neither of us believes that to be the case. We both believe that we must cooperate with Christ’s grace by choosing to receive His gift. An act of the will is required on our part. Col. 1:24 is one of many verses that shows this to be an ongoing process. St. Paul speaks of uniting his sufferings to the cross and thus participating in the work of redemption. No, Christ does not need our efforts, our works, our sufferings, but He CHOOSES to unite our efforts, as small as they are, to His supreme effort on the cross, and thus makes each of us His co-redeemers, His brothers, His cooperators, His co-heirs (Rom. 8:17). Christ is the vine and we are the branches, as Our Lord teaches us in John 15…as long as we abide in Him we are able to bear fruit that is pleasing to the Father. As St. John says in the first chapter of his gospel, to those who believe Christ gave the “power to become the sons of God” (John 1:12) and a share of His own divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).
I think this is an important foundation to cover before even diving into the issue of purgatory. Yes, we are indeed called to work out our salvation with “fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12) for the Lord, through His death and resurrection, has won for us the grace that makes this possible. By ourselves we are nothing…our works are but empty rags…but united to His grace they become worthy of the Father’s approval.

It is for this reason that Our Lord, in Matthew 25 with the parable of the sheep and the goats, declares the righteous to be saved BECAUSE of their good works ("…for I was hungry and you fed me…") and the wicked damned BECAUSE of their lack of good works. Scripture is clear that salvation is by the grace of Christ alone. Scripture is also clear that salvation is by works. Christ Himself preaches it again and again without any qualification - Matthew 25 being a great example. Only the traditional Christian teaching, the faith of the Fathers for 1500 years, as testified to and lived by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian Church of the East, reconciles these apparent contradictions. It is Christ who enables us, by His transforming grace within our souls, to please the Father.

I addressed the theory of co-redeemers in a prior post. This is impossible because of Heb. 1:3 which clearly states, “when He had by HIMSELF purged our sins, sat down…” This is because only a perfect sacrifice will do. You and i are imperfect. If anything of us were to be joined to His sacrifice, it would make it imperfect and unacceptable. I know that sounds harsh, but it is true. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[eazyduzit]

OK

So lets proceed from your reply.

You seem to have missed the importance of just how this lack of right understanding applies to you [meaning here Protestants in general; not personally]

How then can one explain that today’s RCC after 2,000 of being in existence has only 23 Branches; A:: OF WHICH accept the one single Founders Faith beliefs; whule Protestants after just short of 500 years have MANY thousands of DIFFERING sets of beliefs and churches; IF not due to the fact that GOD’s Wisdom is being withheld:shrug:

God Bless you; please pray about it

Patrick

I know this is your trump card on every issue, but i don’t see it that way. Instead from my perspective i see remarkable uniformity regarding the gospel message and the.way.of savation which we all agree that is by faith plus.nothing. We all agree that we have been saved unto good works. (I am referring to major p denominations) There are less esential things that cause divisions such as the gifts of the spirit and even eschatology. Other things that separate are race, nationality, and tradition. As an example, note that the 7 churches in Revelation had different doctrines and practices but they shared basic beliefs. What i see is a.unity that is Spirit driven, and not so much of.man because there is no overall human controlling body.

Also, Patrick, God NEVER withholds His wisdom. He gives liberally to all who ask. The reason why we don’t receive is because our vision is often clouded or our ears blocked by our traditions. This is what blocked the Pharisees from hearing Jesus.

 

[twf]

I addressed the theory of co-redeemers in a prior post. This is impossible because of Heb. 1:3 which clearly states, “when He had by HIMSELF purged our sins, sat down…” This is because only a perfect sacrifice will do. You and i are imperfect. If anything of us were to be joined to His sacrifice, it would make it imperfect and unacceptable. I know that sounds harsh, but it is true. Sorry to burst your bubble.

You didn’t really respond to my individual points nor to my Scripture references. I said quite plainly that apart from Christ our works are but empty rags. That being said, I believe in a Christ who is capable of making us truly holy. Yes He alone is our salvation- our Saviour - but He chooses to give us a share in His own mission after He transforms us by His own divine life. St Paul makes it very clear- his sufferings are a participation in the suffering of Christ. Your interpretation of one verses doesn’t trump countless other verses and 2000 years of CAtholics living the faith who have experienced true transformation from sinners into the very image of the Son of God.
Any comments regarding my post above on the fire / Blood issue ?

 

[PJM]

This is just about the most irrational and ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If Jesus himself can purge us with nothing but fire (which is cheap) then why did He ever agree to shed His most precious blood for us if He could purge our sin by another way???

Your reply to Jon my friend, is too illogical

We are spreaking of GOD here

God CAN do ANY Good thing.

Which BTW aligns with the wrong understanding of salvation ya’ll gravitate to:

You confuse what God COULD have done & what Jesus / GOD actually DOES choose to do. Amen!

Blessings,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

My question, Patrick, is why did the RCC wait for 1850 and 1950 years to establish the Marian dogmas? Why wasn’t that important enough through tradition to have been established before?

Thanks, and God bless!

Rita

What we have here MY friend, is a lack of understanding of the TOTAL truth.

Your question is about ONE Marian DOGMA [NOT the body of Catholic beliefs]

The NORMAL process for a belief to eventually proclaimed as a DOGMA is as follows:

1st it becomes a widely held belief of MANY Catholics: laity; priest, religious and Bishops; who in turn and in time petition Rome to make this believe [after PRAYERFUL consideration and investigation]; GUIDED by the Holy Spirit in to a DEFINED-Doctrine of the of Catholic the Universal Catholic Church.

LATER; that process-sequence is again repeated for a doctrinal-believe to be Infallibly declared [which is what you reference] as a Catholic Dogma.

VERY often a Doctrine or a Dogma is Rome’s response [a clarification if you will] of a LONG & widely held belief that is either being challenged;]is being wrongly understood or is being denied by some [in and or OUT-side of the Church]. BUT it could also be from widely help belefs as indicated above.

Does that answer your question my friend?

Patrick

 

[The_Logician]

They don’t need the money?

 

[JonNC]

They don’t need the money?

Care to elaborate ?

Jon

 

[The_Logician]

it was the Catholic Church that would open the door, for money had been used against the poor for the manipulation of religion. Indulgences were listed as time off from purgatory. Luther believed that purgatory was not an actual fact but a place created by the Catholic Church for the gain of money. Catholics believe that Purgatory is a place that a believer goes so he can be purified to enter heaven. Indulgences were sold in the 16th Century of the church to help build St. Peter Basilica in Rome.

 

[twf]

Care to elaborate ?

Jon

Perhaps he’s referring to the practice of selling indulgences- suggesting Protestants don’t teach the doctrine of purgatory because they don’t need it to raise money. If so, it’s an irrelevant point because no one has sold indulgences for centuries.

 

[twf]

it was the Catholic Church that would open the door, for money had been used against the poor for the manipulation of religion. Indulgences were listed as time off from purgatory. Luther believed that purgatory was not an actual fact but a place created by the Catholic Church for the gain of money. Catholics believe that Purgatory is a place that a believer goes so he can be purified to enter heaven. Indulgences were sold in the 16th Century of the church to help build St. Peter Basilica in Rome.

Prayers for the dead was a Christian practice since the beginning, inheriting the Jewish practice of the same. The doctrine of purgatory developed over time, but the idea of praying for the dead and purification of souls on their way to heaven long predated the selling of indulgences.

 

[The_Logician]

no one has sold indulgences for centuries.

Oh, really? Old habits die hard.