Why Don't Secularists Just be Honest and Outlaw Christianity?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JimG
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JimG

Guest
I have faith that Ruth Bader Ginbsurg and Anthony Kennedy can come up with some narrative that proves that the Founding Fathers really meant to ban orthodox Christianity, while protecting other creeds. Those justices could “prove” to their own satisfaction that the whole Bill of Rights is really a recipe for chicken mole. And the rest of our elites (including too many Republicans) would back them up, and call that decision “settled law.”
Click to expand...
–John Zmirak, writing for The Stream
stream.org/not-honest-outlaw-christianity/
 
JimG said:
–John Zmirak, writing for The Stream
stream.org/not-honest-outlaw-christianity/
Click to expand...
Oh! I sure needed a good laugh! There is no need to “outlaw” Christianity, not even the perverted version of it, which is touted by a miniscule minority, who would love nothing more than to play the “martyr” card. They are unable to participate in the open marketplace of ideas, so they wish to be the poor, persecuted “underdogs”. (By the way, you get extra 10 points, if you can tell where the word “underdog” came from.)

There is nothing wrong with Christianity or Christians in general. The ultra-orthodox version is steadily losing ground, but they can only blame themselves.
 
Vera–

Martyrdom isn’t a card one plays…it can be bloodless, or “white martyrdom”, when one loses businesses (or gets fined substantial amounts of money, endangering said businesses), loses friends, family for the sake of the Gospel, or is marginalized in society because of their faith.

It’s not whining to recognize “polite persecution” that comes before a storm that wipes away free exercise of religion, it’s astute.

I am not sure what you consider ultra-orthodox Christianity, but I have to say that following Jesus wholeheartedly requires uncompromising devotion. It is considered passé by many today; part of that is the world, the flesh, and the devil, but part is just poor home training and a lack of fortitude by those who begin the journey.

Oh and BTW–underdog is an 19th century colloquialism that refers to a beaten dog in a dog fight. I have it on good authority that this is not to be the Church’s position.
 
Tablefor9 said:
Vera–

Martyrdom isn’t a card one plays…it can be bloodless, or “white martyrdom”, when one loses businesses (or gets fined substantial amounts of money, endangering said businesses), loses friends, family for the sake of the Gospel, or is marginalized in society because of their faith.

It’s not whining to recognize “polite persecution” that comes before a storm that wipes away free exercise of religion, it’s astute.

I am not sure what you consider ultra-orthodox Christianity, but I have to say that following Jesus wholeheartedly requires uncompromising devotion. It is considered passé by many today; part of that is the world, the flesh, and the devil, but part is just poor home training and a lack of fortitude by those who begin the journey.

Oh and BTW–underdog is an 19th century colloquialism that refers to a beaten dog in a dog fight. I have it on good authority that this is not to be the Church’s position.
Click to expand...
Yes indeed. And millennials in general don’t get Orthodox Christianity because they’ve never given 100% commitment to anything in their lives, outside of their own selves.
 
No need to outlaw it. It’s far easier to boil a frog by turning the temperature up slowly than by dropping it into boiling water. It’ll just happily sit there explaining away the problems and creating excuses for everything until it’s too late. Even perhaps going so far as to tell those other frogs in the same water to stop complaining and get with the times. If it was outlawed it would be far too obvious and likely provoke a reaction. Society has learned the lessons of the Cristero War and the Vendee well.

But worry not, knuckle-down, learn the faith and the Church’s history (all 2,000 years of it, not just the last 10), pass it to others and always remember that “the gates of hell shall not prevail.”
 
JimG said:
–John Zmirak, writing for The Stream
stream.org/not-honest-outlaw-christianity/
Click to expand...
Great article, Jim. And one passage I see played out too often here on CAF, among many other marketplaces:

“Oh, they’ll make room for progressive Christians that mutate the Faith, discard whatever secularists tell them is out of fashion, and “discover” that Jesus really meant to say precisely what the world wants to hear at this very moment. (Funny coincidence, that.)”
 
Tablefor9 said:
Martyrdom isn’t a card one plays…it can be bloodless, or “white martyrdom”, when one loses businesses (or gets fined substantial amounts of money, endangering said businesses), loses friends, family for the sake of the Goepel, or is marginalized in society because of their faith.
Click to expand...
Nowadays it is. The point is that if you open a business for the public, you cannot refuse to serve a special segment of the public because of your religious conviction. If you don’t like it, open an exclusive club for people you want to do business with.
Tablefor9 said:
It’s not whining to recognize “polite persecution” that comes before a storm that wipes away free exercise of religion, it’s astute.
Click to expand...
If your free exercise includes discrimination, then you are in bad shape.
Tablefor9 said:
I am not sure what you consider ultra-orthodox Christianity, but I have to say that following Jesus wholeheartedly requires uncompromising devotion. It is considered passé by many today; part of that is the world, the flesh, and the devil, but part is just poor home training and a lack of fortitude by those who begin the journey.
Click to expand...
Almost everyone on this board, with a few exceptions. It is rather strange that people who believe that God gave us reason and thinking also assert that we must give up that reason in certain subjects. They say: “you must follow your conscience, as long as it is a well-formed conscience”. And if you ask, “what is a well-formed conscience?” The answer is: “your conscience is well-formed if it agrees exactly and precisely with what the church says”. Why worry about the conscience? They could just say: “follow what the church says, and stop thinking!”
Tablefor9 said:
Oh and BTW–underdog is an 19th century colloquialism that refers to a beaten dog in a dog fight.
Click to expand...
No, it is much older. It comes from times of bear fights, when a pack of dogs was trained to attack a bear. The ones which were trained to go for the throat were the “upper dogs”, the ones which were trained to attack the belly of the bear were the “underdogs”. They were killed easier by the bear. Find out in the essay by Elliot Angel: “How William became Shakespeare”? professorengel.com/products/cd08-how-william-became-shakespeare-1
 
I’m actually fine with having a higher authority guide my conscience. And I’m fine with submitting to that higher authority. Because even in my own imperfect, human mind, so often clouded by sin, I recognize the transcendent light behind that authority.
 
Vera_Ljuba said:
Almost everyone on this board, with a few exceptions. It is rather strange that people who believe that God gave us reason and thinking also assert that we must give up that reason in certain subjects. They say: “you must follow your conscience, as long as it is a well-formed conscience”. And if you ask, “what is a well-formed conscience?” The answer is: “your conscience is well-formed if it agrees exactly and precisely with what the church says”. Why worry about the conscience? They could just say: “follow what the church says, and stop thinking!”
Click to expand...
Funny you phrase it like that. Given that Christ himself established the Church, founded upon St Peter as first Pope, promised the guidance of the Holy Spirit, told us to “go forth and make disciples of all nations”, said “keep my commandments” and that the “gates of hell would not prevail against it”, one could indeed say “your conscience is well formed if it agrees precisely with what the Church says”.

But then again, nobody is perfect, and so for those times we fail to live up to our responsibilities to God we have the Sacrament of Confession to reconcile ourselves with God and return to a state of Grace. Simple in theory. A lifetime of practice in reality.
 
“And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it.”
 
Vera_Ljuba said:
No, it is much older. It comes from times of bear fights, when a pack of dogs was trained to attack a bear. The ones which were trained to go for the throat were the “upper dogs”, the ones which were trained to attack the belly of the bear were the “underdogs”. They were killed easier by the bear. Find out in the essay by Elliot Angel: “How William became Shakespeare”? professorengel.com/products/cd08-how-william-became-shakespeare-1
Click to expand...
Dictionaries would differ as to its earliest use.

“the beaten dog in a fight,” 1887, from under + dog (n.).
Online Etymology Dictionary

Origin
Late 19th century: with reference to the beaten dog in a dogfight.
Oxford Dictionary online

1: a loser or predicted loser in a struggle or contest
2: a victim of injustice or persecution
First Known Use of underdog
1859
Merriam-Webster
  1. a person who is expected to lose in a contest or conflict.
  2. a victim of social or political injustice:
    The underdogs were beginning to organize their protests.
    Origin of underdog
    1875-80, Americanism; under- + dog[sup]1[/sup]
    Random House Dictionary
Origin of underdog
origin, originally , the dog that is losing in a dogfight
Webster’s New World College Dictionary

Can you actually quote your supporting cite? The link you provide wants $18 for this “essay”.
 
Vera_Ljuba said:
Nowadays it is. The point is that if you open a business for the public, you cannot refuse to serve a special segment of the public because of your religious conviction. If you don’t like it, open an exclusive club for people you want to do business with.

There’s a difference in declining certain services and not serving certain clientele. The conflating of the two is an overused, but convenient, weapon.

If your free exercise includes discrimination, then you are in bad shape.

People discriminate every day. Shall I hire an experienced person or a new graduate? Shall I shop at Walmart or downtown? Shall I give money to planned parenthood or Catholic charities? It’s called informed choice and we are free to do it. I am also free to choose not to give hours of my time and the fruits of my talent in support of a cause I sincerely hold to be sinful. I may be fined for it, I may be marginalized for it, but I have not injured another’s dignity, but supported it, by not lying in word or deed.

Almost everyone on this board, with a few exceptions. It is rather strange that people who believe that God gave us reason and thinking also assert that we must give up that reason in certain subjects. They say: “you must follow your conscience, as long as it is a well-formed conscience”. And if you ask, “what is a well-formed conscience?” The answer is: “your conscience is well-formed if it agrees exactly and precisely with what the church says”. Why worry about the conscience? They could just say: “follow what the church says, and stop thinking!”

If “almost everyone” on this board espouses beliefs about morality that frustrate you, why are you here? Live and let live is what you want, right? No one should be able to tell you what to think, right? So why come here and do to others that which you so obviously dislike having done to you? Math problems can be solved and we can all agree on a correct answer–unless one starts with incorrect values for the variables or doesn’t know how to work the problem. Do you have a philosophical objection to math tutors? It’s no different. In truth of God and in mathematics, there really is right and wrong.

No, it is much older. It comes from times of bear fights, when a pack of dogs was trained to attack a bear. The ones which were trained to go for the throat were the “upper dogs”, the ones which were trained to attack the belly of the bear were the “underdogs”. They were killed easier by the bear. Find out in the essay by Elliot Angel: “How William became Shakespeare”? professorengel.com/products/cd08-how-william-became-shakespeare-1

That’s interesting; I never heard that one, but do know it’s also tied to naval references and shipbuilding, as well. Is there a deeper reason you reference bear baiting on this forum? Just curious.
Click to expand...
 
Tablefor9 said:
Vera–

Oh and BTW–underdog is an 19th century colloquialism that refers to a beaten dog in a dog fight. I have it on good authority that this is not to be the Church’s position.
Click to expand...
People forget that in the past 2000 years, millions have said the Catholic Church will be beaten. The Catholic Church is the longest living institution in the world. How did it survive all the external and internal attacks through the ages? It is protected by the Holy Spirit. There will never be a time when the Catholic Church does not exist.
 
To the original question, it’s too hard to maintain the mirage of “freedom” whilst using the state’s punishing arm to force others to one’s way of being.

Also, “ultra-orthodox” Christianity has always been a vanishing minority.

ICXC NIKA
 
The Apostle John drops back…throws deep to the believer on the slant route…caught! He could…go…all…the…way!
 
John_Lazarus said:
Can you actually quote your supporting cite? The link you provide wants $18 for this “essay”.
Click to expand...
I wish I could. I have an old (and as such) lousy quality audio cassette with the author reciting his work. It was more than simply entertaining. You might be able to purchase it on Amazon for a more reasonable price. Not that it is pertinent to this thread. I simply referred to it because it is fashionable to root for the “underdog” and it looks like that some people would like to garner support by declaring that they are “persecuted”.

But as I said, there is no need to try to “outlaw” Christianity. As it happens in Europe, it becomes marginalized on its own accord.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top